Offline scomato

  • *
  • Posts: 118
    • View Profile
Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2021, 08:18:33 PM »
Everyone likes to talk about how light works above the surface of the water, but I don't think I've ever seen someone bring up the behavior of light under the water.

One of the coolest things I've ever done is cenote diving in Mexico. The best part of the whole experience, is that you get spectacular sun rays through the cracks and crevices to the surface above.

This quite aptly disproves the diagram here (https://i.imgur.com/mOPRvya.png) and the possibility that light is refracted horizontally as it approaches the surface of the Earth. Which makes sense - the water level is kind of an arbitrary line, there's nothing special about it, and diving under water proves that light continues to travel in a straight line path regardless of whether you're above or below the water level.












Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2021, 02:47:30 PM »
Jack, if I understand your position correctly, you believe that space doesn’t exist independent of the matter that it is in.  If all matter disappeared, then space would cease to exist?  Is that correct?

Like the antagonist from the neverending story?

I have not considered your hypothetical before.  In my view, there is no possibility to do as you propose.  We cannot devoid any area completely of matter, no matter how hard we try.  Nequaquam vacuum.

As a proponent of aether, I have reason to suspect that even if you could create "perfect vacuum" devoid of all matter we recognize - it would still be full of aether (an ultrafine fluid).

My instinct is that if we could devoid an area of aether as well, that it would continue to exist.

Quote
IOW, in order for the laws of physics, specifically the inertial motion of bodies to behave as we observe, space must exist as a separate physical entity.

This is a fundamental premise of all aetherists (and relativity, itself an aether theory)

Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2021, 02:54:38 PM »
Still no answer on the original post.

You mean, except mine - right?

Quote
Why did the rays from Oxnard not reach my eyes?

They were diverted into the land/water by refraction.

Quote
Why did I see one light, then more, and finally the lit up shoreline?

Because as you get closer to the light source, the amount of refraction (bending convexly towards the surface) lessens because it travels through less air to reach you.

Offline jimster

  • *
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2021, 05:04:41 PM »
Refraction as known to conventional RE science is explained by light traveling through layers of air at different temperatures. Sometimes, as over a body of water, a cool, dense layer of air underlies a heated layer. An opposite phenomenon will then prevail, in which light rays will reach the eye that were originally directed above the line of sight. Thus, an object ordinarily out of view, like a boat below the horizon, will be apparently lifted into the sky. This phenomenon is called looming.

https://www.britannica.com/science/looming


Refraction through the atmosphere results in things appearing higher than they are, while I saw the mountain appear to sink into the sea. This is consistent with the air being denser, thus slowing the speed of light, at lower altitudes.

Ironically, this phenomenon is responsible for pictures of cities across lakes that shouldn't be visible per RE, yet they are. RE will tell you about temperatures on different days that make this happen or not. FE uses this as proof of FE. So on one FE post we have "you shouldn't see this, yet you do, so FE!", but here, you claim it as an explanation for what you don't see.

Two conclusions:

1. FE refraction works the opposite of RE refraction. RE has diagrams, explanations, experiments for refraction. FE does not.

2. FE uses the word "refraction" without detailed rigorous explanation to explain why the world that appears RE is actually FE. For FE, light bends however it needs to. Ref position of sun at sunset/sunrise, north star angle above the horizon equals latitude, etc.

Apologies if I failed to see your (wrong) explanation. There are so many off-topic, personal, and otherwise irrelevant posts I have trouble reading through the BS.

Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2021, 01:37:38 AM »
Everyone likes to talk about how light works above the surface of the water, but I don't think I've ever seen someone bring up the behavior of light under the water.

One of the coolest things I've ever done is cenote diving in Mexico. The best part of the whole experience, is that you get spectacular sun rays through the cracks and crevices to the surface above.
Cool dives!  Is that amazing water clarity the norm?

And of course you are correct about the path of light and refraction.  The refraction occurs at the boundary and the path is straight otherwise.  Our technology exploiting this (lenses) is obviously quite well developed.

Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2021, 09:42:16 PM »
Refraction as known to conventional RE science

Lol, there is no "RE science" nor "FE science".  The shape of the entire world doesn't have much, if any, bearing on science.

Quote
is explained by light traveling through layers of air at different temperatures.

That is one way it occurs, yes.  It is more accurate to say that refraction is caused by light traveling through varying densities of media (one possible cause of differing density is temperature)

Quote
This phenomenon is called looming.

We aren't discussing looming (though it is well worth doing so).  We are discussing the "normal" refraction, convexly towards the surface, caused by the density gradient that normally exists in the air (even when the air has uniform temperature)

Quote
Refraction through the atmosphere results in things appearing higher than they are, while I saw the mountain appear to sink into the sea. This is consistent with the air being denser, thus slowing the speed of light, at lower altitudes.

The air is indeed (typically) denser with lower altitude.  Looming is a pretty rare phenomenon - I'm talking about something that happens most of the time.  A straight ray (imagined, of course - there are no rays) traveling from a higher elevation to a lower one through a "normal" density gradient will be diverted convexly downwards towards the surface.  This is also what we see in reality, and the reason that the bottoms of distant things disappear first (the light from them is diverted, by the density gradient, into the surface and no longer reaches the distant observer first)

Quote
Ironically, this phenomenon is responsible for pictures of cities across lakes that shouldn't be visible per RE, yet they are.

This isn't about looming.  That's a discussion unto itself!

Quote
1. FE refraction works the opposite of RE refraction.

Nope! Refraction is pretty well understood and, like most everything else in science, does not have any dependency on the shape of the entire world.

Quote
RE has diagrams, explanations, experiments for refraction. FE does not.

You need to get this nonsense out of your head.  There is only one science and it takes place on a flat earth either because it is, or because it just effectively is on the scale we live and practice science.

Quote
2. FE uses the word "refraction" without detailed rigorous explanation to explain why the world that appears RE is actually FE. For FE, light bends however it needs to. Ref position of sun at sunset/sunrise, north star angle above the horizon equals latitude, etc.

I don't know who this "FE" is you keep prattling on about, but I understand and can rigorously explain refraction as well as why it is often mistaken for "sphericity".

Quote
Apologies if I failed to see your (wrong) explanation. There are so many off-topic, personal, and otherwise irrelevant posts I have trouble reading through the BS.

You cannot objectively evaluate/study anything if your inherent bias is that it MUST be wrong.

You may benefit from going back over my posts in addition to responding to this one.

Offline jimster

  • *
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2021, 06:47:27 PM »
jack44556677 - Whatever you want to call it, there is a huge group of people doing what they call "science" most of which is "settled" (f=ma, periodic table, RE, etc). The same ideas, equations, experiments all consistent with each other, all over the world in schools, engineering labs, etc. It works, chemistry, physics, etc produces working gadgets, airplanes, computers, internet, including google earth and nav equipment and gps. All matches, all works, all based on RE. There is a part of this which is blurry or controversial at the edge of what is known (string theory, quantum, big bang, etc). But that is not what we are talking about here, the science of refraction is well known and not controversial, the are many refraction calculators available.

Then there is Bob Knodel, seeing 15 degrees per hour on his ring laser gyroscope and refusing to accept RE, attributing it to "unknown forces". In FE, some say gravity does not exist, in the FAQ it says light bends (due to unknown forces with unknown equations) to explain the problem that the north star angle above the horizon matches latitude, but if the earth is a flat disk, the angles don't meet in the same place, see the diagram in the FAQ.

I call the collection of settled proven consistent science believed by consensus RE science. I use the phrase FE science to describe whatever changes, exceptions, misunderstandings, etc used to explain the gap between observed reality (north star/sextant/latitude) and the mismatch to FE geometry.

You got me on temperature, it is density, but the point is the same, both contribute, lessen with altitude, and both bend the light down. Search astral navigation refraction and you will find warnings that if you shoot a star near the horizon it will appear higher than it really is. This makes no sense, as the mountain appeared to sink into the water.

Let's get to the heart of the OP. Here is a diagram of where I was with the earth surface flat:

    /\
   /  \
 /     \                                               _o__
/        \_________________________\    /

Here is what I saw:

 / \                                                   _o__
/   \                     ________________\    /

Per your explanation, the real position of the mountain would be, minus the part I didn't see:

    /\
   /  \
                                                       _o__
                           ________________\    /

Please draw the light rays to show how they travel. Bear in mind that your ray is just one of many, there are rays going lower and higher, all directions, some crash into the ocean and some reach the eye if no object blocks it. In RE what blocks it is the crest of the curved surface of the ocean. In what I call FE science, the light bends however it needs to and disappears entirely without equation, explanation, or experiment.



Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2021, 09:22:35 PM »
Whatever you want to call it

I call it what it is, and you should too - science! There are many alternatives to science, but there is only one science.

Quote
All matches, all works, all based on RE.

You aren't grasping what I'm saying.  None of it is based on an RE.  Science takes place on a flat earth either because the earth is flat or because it merely effectively is on the scale we live and practice all science.

Quote
But that is not what we are talking about here, the science of refraction is well known and not controversial, the are many refraction calculators available.

We are currently not discussing "blurry" science, but we often are in this topic. Gravitation is a very common topic, and almost nothing in science is "blurrier".

I agree that refraction is reasonably well understood, and like all the other science - doesn't depend on the shape of the world.

Quote
Then there is Bob Knodel

Don't watch netflix entertainment and mistake it for research.  Just general advice.

Quote
attributing it to "unknown forces"

This perspective makes more sense if you understand the history of physics, not that bob would know that.

Quote
In FE, some say gravity does not exist

Many do, but that isn't what they mean.  They mean GRAVITATION doesn't exist.  No one denies the 2 millennia old natural law of gravity.

Quote
I call the collection of settled proven consistent science believed by consensus RE science.

I recognize that, which is why I am trying to explain to you why you shouldn't continue to.  Consensus is a very dirty word in science, and the cohesive consistency you believe exists (because of miseducation to that effect) is an illusion.  There is no "RE science", there is just science and it belongs to all!

Quote
I use the phrase FE science to describe whatever changes, exceptions, misunderstandings, etc used to explain the gap between observed reality (north star/sextant/latitude) and the mismatch to FE geometry.

I can appreciate that, however it (fe science) is more correctly and effectively conveyed as alternative interpretations.  The belief in the shape of the world of the person who holds them is irrelevant, from a scientific perspective.

Quote
This makes no sense, as the mountain appeared to sink into the water.

I promise you it does, and better yet I can help you demonstrate it for yourself!  The "trick" you are missing is that the angle the light enters (and travels through) the density gradient is important! The density gradient only ever causes the light to divert downwards.  If the light enters horizontally or towards the ground, it will appear lower than it ought (or won't reach you at all anymore).  If light enters the gradient towards the sky, it will again be bent downwards - sometimes being interpreted/seen as being "above" "where it should be".

Quote
Here is what I saw:

 / \                                                   _o__
/   \                     ________________\    /


Yes, exactly as I described.

Just draw half a rainbow (more or less the actual path light travels through the air) from the top of the mountain to your head on the ship.  The mountaintop ray reaches your eye, and each ray below it curves slightly more convexly than the last one.  The reason for that is the density gradient.  It is also the reason you can continue to see the peak so much longer - there is physically less matter on that linear path to you (the observer) than for any of the subsequent steeper angles.

Please let me know if you still aren't understanding.

Quote
In what I call FE science, the light bends however it needs to and disappears entirely without equation, explanation, or experiment.

Perhaps I can convince you to use the word "conception".  That's what I frequently use, and that is explicitly what you are talking about.  There aren't 2 (or more) science, there are 2 (and more) conceptions of what the shape of the world is (generally regardless of/irrelevant to science)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 09:33:43 PM by jack44556677 »

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 2767
    • View Profile
Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2021, 10:21:54 PM »
"Just draw half a rainbow (more or less the actual path light travels through the air) from the top of the mountain to your head on the ship."

... but the other guy asked you to DRAW it, not describe what to draw...

Can you draw it on a piece of paper, and scan it, or draw it in a drawing program or app?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline jimster

  • *
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2021, 05:35:15 PM »
Rays bounce off objects in all directions, that's why you can see objects from every angle.  Some of the rays do bounce at a low angle or bend slightly and hit the ocean. If the ocean were flat calm, you would see this as a reflection. But rays do not bounce in one single direction, they bounce in all directions. That's why you can see mountain across a flat calm lake at the same time you see its reflection. One ray reflected down and off the lake, while another went straight to your eye.

So if there is a ray that bends down and hits the ocean, there was also a ray that bounced slightly higher such that this one ends up hitting your eye.

 /\
/  \

      X                                      _o__
                      _____________\     /

Tell me the angle of refraction and I will draw a curve at that angle from X to my eye. There is an unblocked path from everywhere down to the shoreline through the path of refraction. Refraction doesn't make things disappear, it makes them look higher than they really are. Like the pics I posted about looming.

You can draw an unblccked path to my eye through the curve of refraction to any point on the mountain down to the shoreline. I should be able to see the entire mountain if the earth is flat.

Simple example, a man looking at X. Here I show a ray that bounces down and hits the ground, yet X is still visible!

   X            O
     \           /|\
      \           /\

Now suppose refraction is bending the light down at 45 degrees after it bounces of X. Has X become invisible? No, because light is bouncing off X in all directions, including 45 degrees up, where the refraction would bend it right into your eye.

       _
     /    \
   X        O
     \      /|\
      \      /\

But because your mind interprets as though light rays travel straight, you would see this:

     X
       \
        \
          \
           O
          /|\
           /\

See "looming". Search "atmospheric refraction". Refraction causes the entire scene to seem higher than it is. It does not make part of it invisible.
 
You see things if they are not blocked. On FE, nothing blocks it. On RE, the crest of the curved ocean surface blocks it.