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Offline Rama Set

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #100 on: August 14, 2020, 01:14:00 PM »
You have to stop parroting CNN.

I don't watch CNN.  This is based on economic data of people's wage growth vis a vis inflation and cost of living.

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Let someone else calmly tell you why you are wrong.

Why don't you be a big boy and do it yourself.

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And feel free to scour my post history. I don't have Jewish conspiracy theories. Maybe you are projecting?

I mean, I have engaged with you on your nonsense fear and hatred of the Rothschilds.  Maybe you don't remember?  It happens with age.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #101 on: August 14, 2020, 02:30:01 PM »
Of course it does. The sheer number of them is exactly what makes the accusations - not necessarily any one of them in particular, but at least some of them - credible.
It doesn't matter how many times you say this, it continues to be a complete perversion of logic. It's just a spicy mix of the ad populum fallacy with your wishful thinking.

If it is possible that some of those claims are true, then it is possible that all of those claims are true.
It certainly is. So far, no evidence was brought forward for any of them. Once one of those claims turns out to be true, the label will fit Trump regardless of the truth value of the remaining claims. Until then, nope.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 02:31:46 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2020, 06:01:48 PM »
It doesn't matter how many times you say this, it continues to be a complete perversion of logic. It's just a spicy mix of the ad populum fallacy with your wishful thinking.

I don’t even think this is an example of the ad populum fallacy. That fallacy states that just because a lot of people believe something - like, say, that the earth is a sphere - that doesn’t make it true. Which is right although I’d suggest the fact that pretty much 100% of scientists believe that isn’t entirely irrelevant in the discussion, but enough with that rabbit hole.

Here we are talking about the number of people who have accused Trump. I’d suggest in any legal trial that would be highly relevant. I’m not sure what evidence they could provide of an alleged unwanted sexual encounter decades ago.

When you add the number of people who have accused him to the way he talks about women, the frankly disturbing things he has said about his own daughter, the “grab ‘em by the pussy”’ comment and his own boasts about barging into dressing rooms when involved in Miss Teen USA...

It all adds up to thinking at best he has used his wealth and power to prey on woman in a way he wouldn’t have been able to were he not in that position. Not uniquely - a lot of rich and powerful men have done this, historically.
Whether he’s done anything actually illegal is debatable, I guess we will never really know.
It wouldn’t surprise me.

TL;DR, I don’t think the number of accusers is irrelevant. Fewer people have accused Michael Jackson of abuse and it’s been enough to make people question his legacy in the court of public opinion.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #103 on: August 14, 2020, 06:04:36 PM »
I’m not sure what evidence they could provide of an alleged unwanted sexual encounter decades ago.
Yes, waiting decades before reporting a crime will do that to you. However, this does not free them from the burden of proof.
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Offline honk

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #104 on: August 14, 2020, 06:36:34 PM »
Of course it does. The sheer number of them is exactly what makes the accusations - not necessarily any one of them in particular, but at least some of them - credible.
It doesn't matter how many times you say this, it continues to be a complete perversion of logic. It's just a spicy mix of the ad populum fallacy with your wishful thinking.

The ad populum fallacy is about popular belief. It would be like me saying that a lot of people believing Trump to be a sexual predator is what makes him one. But I'm talking about accusations. However likely it is that an accuser is lying or otherwise mistaken, the probability goes down with every new accuser that they are all lying or otherwise mistaken. It's not fallacious to take a step back and question how likely it is that all these women are lying or mistaken about what he's done in the past, and why this phenomenon would only be limited to Trump.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2020, 06:40:47 PM »
It's incredulous that you guys are unable to admit that factors such as wealth, hate, could not factor into why Trump has more claims against him than someone else. That a big fallacy there. Trump is certainly different than other people.

"He must have done some of that stuff because there are more claims"

"He said that 'when you're a star, they let you do it', and I'm going to ignore the possibility that groupies exist, therefore he must be sexually assaulting people without consent."

Really, listen to yourselves.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2020, 06:42:13 PM »
It's incredulous that you guys are unable to admit that factors such as wealth and hate could not factor into why Trump has more claims against him than someone else. That a big fallacy there. Trump is certainly different than other people.

"He must have done some of that stuff because there are more claims"

"He said that 'when you're a star, they let you do it', and I'm going to ignore the possibility that groupies exist, therefore he must be sexually assaulting people without consent."

Really, listen to yourselves.

Who is ignoring that? Has anyone said that’s impossible? You’re strawmanning people.

Really, listen to yourself.
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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2020, 06:44:45 PM »
I’m not sure what evidence they could provide of an alleged unwanted sexual encounter decades ago.
Yes, waiting decades before reporting a crime will do that to you. However, this does not free them from the burden of proof.

Sure. But it's coming across as though you think that somehow casts doubt on their accounts.
Aren't all cases like this a person (or people) saying another person did a thing? And the accused saying no they didn't.
I'd suggest that when a lot of people say the person did a thing then it becomes more credible.
Doesn't make it true of course.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2020, 06:54:25 PM »
It's incredulous that you guys are unable to admit that factors such as wealth, hate, could not factor into why Trump has more claims against him than someone else.

I'd certainly agree that's a potential factor, but I've also listed a few reasons why there's a pattern of behaviour there which makes the allegations credible.

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Really, listen to yourselves.

Right back atcha, buddy.
Look at the the mental gymnastics you do to defend Trump no matter what he says or does. Something you don't do with the people you don't support.
As I've said elsewhere, if you like his policies and like the fact that he basically does (or tries to) the things he says he's going to do then fine.
It's perfectly possible to believe that and also not like the way he behaves and lies all the time.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2020, 07:09:36 PM »
Sure. But it's coming across as though you think that somehow casts doubt on their accounts.
No. Presuming Trump's innocence does not strictly mean accusing the women or lying, or doubting their accounts. However, it would be utter insanity to just take their accusations as fact with no proof. Luckily, Saddam is in an extremely small minority when it comes to his approach.

I'd suggest that when a lot of people say the person did a thing then it becomes more credible.
I disagree. If you had 12 women testifying to him committing the same crime, that would obviously grant the one incident some credibility (not immediately settling it, but certainly pushing the needle). Here we have individual accounts of him committing a whole bunch of crimes decades ago, which they all chose to do nothing about until suddenly, by complete coincidence, they chose to all speak up at once.

If anything, the timing makes me ever so slightly doubtful. How did they achieve this hive mind mentality to suddenly and independently decide to take action on crimes from decades ago?

and why this phenomenon would only be limited to Trump.
It isn't. Bill Clinton, Boris Johnson and Joe Biden immediately come to mind. They were victims of similar slander, admittedly to a lesser extent, at pivotal points in their lives.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 07:17:25 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2020, 08:42:31 PM »
If anything, the timing makes me ever so slightly doubtful. How did they achieve this hive mind mentality to suddenly and independently decide to take action on crimes from decades ago?

Going public with charges of sexual assault by a powerful, wealthy man is usually just going to get that woman's reputation and life dragged through the gutter by a legion of high priced lawyers and all the tabloids they can use to smear and slander her. Winning will be a long shot.

It's a scary process, and even when it's not someone rich, having to go on the stand and relive the incident and get cross examined and attacked by yet another man in a lawyer suit is something a lot of people simply can't handle.

So when one of them DOES go public, it can give others the courage to come forward.  This is common in a lot of situations like this, not just sexual assault.  They likely wouldn't even know any of the others until they started going public.  How would they?

But I have no problem believing women that were harassed/abused 10 or 20 years ago by Trump wouldn't come out until now.

Again, it's not proof but the fact they waited until now is not at all unusual for this sort of thing, it's the norm.

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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2020, 08:54:25 PM »

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Offline honk

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #112 on: August 15, 2020, 03:54:22 AM »
No. Presuming Trump's innocence does not strictly mean accusing the women or lying, or doubting their accounts.

In a court of law, it doesn't. But in the world of objective reality, it absolutely, 100% does. Anyone whose stance is to presume Trump's innocence (morally, not legally) needs to be prepared to mentally reconcile this with the fact that a large number of women have all seemingly lied about his behavior with them.

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If anything, the timing makes me ever so slightly doubtful. How did they achieve this hive mind mentality to suddenly and independently decide to take action on crimes from decades ago?

The political climate being their motivation is obvious, but I don't think that indicates a lack of sincerity. It's one thing to have the sleazy businessman who assaulted you continue to be a sleazy businessman; it's another to watch him become the President of the United States.

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It isn't. Bill Clinton, Boris Johnson and Joe Biden immediately come to mind. They were victims of similar slander, admittedly to a lesser extent, at pivotal points in their lives.

The extent of it is exactly what makes it unique. It's one thing to have one woman who's ready to step forward publicly and take the risk of lying about a powerful figure, it's entirely another to have the number of liars enter double digits. (I don't like using this phrase twice in one post. Please forgive me.) If this - producing a bunch of lying women to take down presidential candidates - is really a thing that can and does happen, then the Trump campaign would already have spent half its reelection budget pumping out an assembly line of paid liars to tear down Biden. And before anyone says it, no, they wouldn't refrain from doing that for fear of the backlash if they got caught. Trump has been implicated in worse scandals before, and I already know how this one would play out. He'd deny that it ever happened, proof would be shown that it did happen, he'd deny denying it, he'd deny any knowledge of the scheme, he'd throw whatever patsy was convenient under the bus and blame it all on them, angrily tweet about how he's always hated that employee and they were only ever a coffee boy to begin with, and not only would he not lose a single member of his devoted fanbase, they would love him all the more for it.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #113 on: August 15, 2020, 07:48:20 AM »
In a court of law, it doesn't. But in the world of objective reality, it absolutely, 100% does.
We are so, so lucky that hardly anyone thinks like you.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #114 on: August 15, 2020, 08:07:13 AM »
I’m not sure what evidence they could provide of an alleged unwanted sexual encounter decades ago.
Yes, waiting decades before reporting a crime will do that to you. However, this does not free them from the burden of proof.

It actually precludes them from further litigation under the statue of limitations.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #115 on: August 15, 2020, 09:28:16 AM »
It actually precludes them from further litigation under the statue of limitations.
Many American states have no statute of limitations on sexual assault, though I haven't cross-checked this against the specific accusations made.
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Offline JRowe

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2020, 07:43:58 PM »
I’m not sure what evidence they could provide of an alleged unwanted sexual encounter decades ago.
Yes, waiting decades before reporting a crime will do that to you. However, this does not free them from the burden of proof.

It actually precludes them from further litigation under the statue of limitations.
Legal and personal consequences aren't the same thing.

It seems to be an alarmingly common tactic of faux-reasonable people to fall back on 'respectable' fields, even when they aren't relevant. It's the same guiding principle that sees people crying 'free speech, first amendment!' in what should be a casual discussion between friends. If you're in a situation where you have to talk legality and laws as opposed to simply your opinion of an individual, then you're in a very dicey situation. It's a way to appear as though you have the high ground while having very little to stand on indeed.
Laws aren't synonymous with morality. In many cases they're actively not meant to be an accurate judge of someone's character. What a court of law would make of someone should not necessarily be the same as what an individual concludes.
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Online Rushy

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #117 on: August 15, 2020, 08:02:47 PM »
Of course it does. The sheer number of them is exactly what makes the accusations - not necessarily any one of them in particular, but at least some of them - credible.
It doesn't matter how many times you say this, it continues to be a complete perversion of logic. It's just a spicy mix of the ad populum fallacy with your wishful thinking.

The ad populum fallacy is about popular belief. It would be like me saying that a lot of people believing Trump to be a sexual predator is what makes him one. But I'm talking about accusations. However likely it is that an accuser is lying or otherwise mistaken, the probability goes down with every new accuser that they are all lying or otherwise mistaken. It's not fallacious to take a step back and question how likely it is that all these women are lying or mistaken about what he's done in the past, and why this phenomenon would only be limited to Trump.

I could probably quite easily convince a large portion of the IRC to say you're a witch and that they've witnessed to you performing demonic rituals. This, of course, will never hold up in a court of law, because there's (probably) no evidence of you sacrificing children to evil gods, but many people are accusing you of it, so it must be true.

The point of having due process is that accusing someone, especially without actually getting the state to charge them, is completely risk-free. There's no downside to saying "this person sexually assaulted me 20 years ago". You might say "there's no reason for them to lie" but the fact is that there's no reason for them not to lie, either. Believing an accusation as strong as sexual assault without any genuine evidence of the act is as immoral as it is unjust.

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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #118 on: August 15, 2020, 08:53:08 PM »
The point of having due process is that accusing someone, especially without actually getting the state to charge them, is completely risk-free. There's no downside to saying "this person sexually assaulted me 20 years ago".

No downside? The reason why a large number of cases go unreported, and many take years to come to light is there are some very big downsides to reporting it. Especially if the man you are accusing is rich and well connected.

Saying there is no downside is factually wrong. If the accused it wealthy, your name will be dragged through the mud, your entire life exposed, lies will be spread about you. It's not going to be risk free or easy or something you do on a whim. It very likely could destroy your life.

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Offline honk

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #119 on: August 15, 2020, 09:13:16 PM »
In a court of law, it doesn't. But in the world of objective reality, it absolutely, 100% does.
We are so, so lucky that hardly anyone thinks like you.

There is nobody who lives their life the way you seem to be advocating. Your life is not a courtroom, and you're handicapping your own capacity for critical thought if you want to act like there's an imaginary set of rules floating above your head that you dare not defy in your private life. The rest of the world does not feel beholden to this. If someone at work asks you how you're feeling and you respond by citing your right to medical privacy, they're going to treat you like an asshole. If you try to pay for something at a store with an unusual denomination of currency and tell the manager they have the burden of proof in determining its authenticity, they're going to ask you to leave. If your significant other asks you if you're cheating on them and you respond by saying they need evidence before they start making slanderous accusations, they're going to view that suspiciously. These are all normal human interactions in normal life, the exact same as private citizens discussing whether or not they believe Trump to have committed sexual assault in the past. You know all this, because you're a functioning adult who has a life outside of the Internet, and I'm convinced that we wouldn't be getting this monocle-popping "muh ethics!" response from you on any other subject than a controversial political race.

I could probably quite easily convince a large portion of the IRC to say you're a witch and that they've witnessed to you performing demonic rituals.

Shitposts from pseudo-anonymous screen names and Twitter handles have no credibility, and if that was the extent of the accusations against Trump, we'd be having a very different discussion. I would be very impressed if you could get anyone on IRC to attach their real name to a claim of me being a witch and genuinely try to publicize it by going to the media.

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The point of having due process is that accusing someone, especially without actually getting the state to charge them, is completely risk-free. There's no downside to saying "this person sexually assaulted me 20 years ago". You might say "there's no reason for them to lie" but the fact is that there's no reason for them not to lie, either.

I disagree. By accusing him, they've subjected themselves to endless scrutiny of their behavior and private lives by the media and the public, opened themselves up to sexual and personal judgment from both well-meaning skeptics like Pete and ogres like Thork, invited potential legal action from Trump himself (as well as, dare I say, possible non-legal retribution from his devoted fans), and ensured that their names will be forever associated with all this on the public record, where potential employers, friends, and others can read all about it with a simple Google search of their name. Even if one of them were to go to court and have it be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Trump assaulted them, it still wouldn't look good to be attached to this, and if they were more or less proved to be lying or wrong, they'd risk becoming a pariah for the rest of their life. It's not as simple as "Trump raped me, kthxbai."

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Believing an accusation as strong as sexual assault without any genuine evidence of the act is as immoral as it is unjust.

I don't see how belief can itself be interpreted as moral or immoral. We don't exactly choose what we find to be compelling or sincere, or what we see as inauthentic or unbelievable. Anyway, I've explained my reasoning for believing that Trump has most likely sexually assaulted at least one person in the past. It wouldn't be admissible in court, but thankfully, we're not in court, and so Trump's due process rights are entirely intact. It's just one of the reasons why I believe that he's a garbage human being and his presidency will forever be a stain on this country.
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