[Rushy]

Are you implying that kids don't know killing people is wrong?

Yes.

TL;DR, you're an idiot. Thanks for making it easy.

[fappenhosen]

Are you implying that kids don't know killing people is wrong?

Yes.

TL;DR, you're an idiot. Thanks for making it easy.

Thankyou for another valuable contribution.

[Ghost of V]

No. I'm betting the one behind this is a straight sociopath and obviously a violent one at that. There is nothing that can help her.

You don't know that for sure. Even so, the child hasn't fully developed. With the right help she might become a completely normal functioning adult. There's no reason to keep her in prison until she rots because of someone's gut instinct.

Surprisingly, I agree with fappenhosen.

[rooster]

Gut instinct? It's pretty easy to spot a sociopath and there are a lot of them out there. Usually they just stick to being con-artists of some sort. And there is absolutely no help for it. She can learn to not try and kill people, but she should already know that and even then there's still the likelihood that she'd be violent anyway. A psych exam will tell more.

Even if they are young, you learn the difference between right and wrong at a young age. Juvenile court is mostly what Rushy said, so that their privacy is maintained and they can be easily reintegrated. Criminal court is for severe crimes where they need to be held accountable for their actions. 

[Ghost of V]

Gut instinct? It's pretty easy to spot a sociopath and there are a lot of them out there. Usually they just stick to being con-artists of some sort. And there is absolutely no help for it. She can learn to not try and kill people, but she should already know that and even then there's still the likelihood that she'd be violent anyway. A psych exam will tell more.

Even if they are young, you learn the difference between right and wrong at a young age. Juvenile court is mostly what Rushy said, so that their privacy is maintained and they can be easily reintegrated. Criminal court is for severe crimes where they need to be held accountable for their actions.

I understand what you're saying, but it applies to adults. Not children. And you're assuming these children have the mentality of an adult. Were you a rational human being at 12 years old? Did you have fits and tantrums?  If so, guess what: you have bipolar disorder.

Doesn't make sense, does it?

Children are still developing mentally and it would be unfair to lump one into a category when it could have been a one time thing. If I'm wrong, then so be it. But the kid deserves a second chance, that's what being a child is about. If you throw a child into prison, how is that going to help anything? If anything, our prison system sucks so badly that it might even foster her murderous nature.

[rooster]

If they find she's criminally insane then she'll still get treatment.

But planning a murder for about 3 months is not throwing a tantrum. That is well planned and not emotional at all. That is the thinking capacity of an adult. Not the irrationality of a child.

[Ghost of V]

If they find she's criminally insane then she'll still get treatment.

But planning a murder for about 3 months is not throwing a tantrum. That is well planned and not emotional at all. That is the thinking capacity of an adult. Not the irrationality of a child.

Children can't make plans? Taking someone into the woods and stabbing them because of a character on the internet is not "well planned" by any means. Not to mention how easily they were caught, and they didn't even kill the victim.
So you believe that these children should go to adult prison for 60+ years?

[rooster]

Planning to take that specific girl out to the middle of the woods is pretty thought out. They're just not very smart, but they'll get smarter about it. It didn't work out because they're not strong enough, the stab wounds were too shallow and off the mark but 19 stabs is extremely violent. Premeditated murder is a heavy offense. Children don't often do it.

Say whatever you like, but this disturbed person needs to be held fully accountable. If you think this is just because 12 year olds don't know right from wrong then why doesn't this kind of thing happen all the time? They know. Juvenile court is just for less serious offenses and try help the accused reintegrate, criminal court is for punishment and for the safety of the public. The worse the offense, the less likely it is that they can be reintegrated.

[Ghost of V]

They don't understand the consequences as well as fully grown adults, but they do know the difference between right and wrong.

As you can see, right/wrong is not my argument here.

Young children in America are imperiled by abuse, neglect, domestic and community violence, and poverty. All of which can have effects on the minds of children. Not to mention, the offender here was not just one child, but two. Two children with a stupid idea can go a long way, even one child with a stupid idea can influence their friends to commit crimes as well. Peer pressure, it's a thing among children. There are a lot of factors involved here other than "this child is a sociopath and will never change", because as we all know and have experienced: children change considerably over time.

Thousands of children are housed in adult jails and prisons on any given day in America. Children are x5 more likely to be sexually assaulted in adult prisons than in juvenile facilities and face increased risk of suicide. Confinement of children with adults in jails and prisons is  cruel and unusual, and it should be banned. Not to mention the fact that it's unconstitutional. Children are protected on some degree by the law and every time we throw a child in prison with adults violates their rights.

From wikipedia:
"Children's rights are the human rights of children with particular attention to the rights of special protection and care afforded to minors,[1] including their right to association with both parents, human identity as well as the basic needs for food, universal state-paid education, health care and criminal laws appropriate for the age and development of the child, equal protection of the child's civil rights, and freedom from discrimination on the basis of the child's race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, religion, disability, color, ethnicity, or other characteristics. Interpretations of children's rights range from allowing children the capacity for autonomous action to the enforcement of children being physically, mentally and emotionally free from abuse, though what constitutes "abuse" is a matter of debate. Other definitions include the rights to care and nurturing"

[Lemon]

If a kid commits manslaughter, that's one thing. When they plan to kill, that's another. Just sayin'.

[rooster]

Healthy children change, yes. Even certain disorders can be treated or controlled. But sociopaths can not be treated and do not change. In fact, they are usually repeat offenders because they lack feelings of remorse or guilt.

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/) (or sociopathy /ˈsoʊsiəˌpæθi/) is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. [...] Psychopathy has often been considered untreatable.

The outcome of children being tried as adults:

Although the Sanctions are more serious in this kind of case than if the juvenile was tried as a child, certain allowances are still made due to the fact the offender is a minor. These include a juvenile offender not being forced to serve time in an adult prison, or with adult prisoners. Extreme sanctions such as the death penalty are generally not handed down to minors.

So no, I don't see why they'd be put in prison with other adults.


Now there is this to support an argument for trying them as juveniles:

Juveniles whose cases were seen in criminal court were more likely to reoffend and to reoffend sooner than matched samples of juveniles whose cases were seen in juvenile court.[38][39] For example, juveniles tried and convicted as adults were found to be 32% more likely to commit another crime in the future than juveniles tried and adjudicated delinquent for similar crimes in the juvenile justice system.

But I'm not sure if this is taking into account that it's the more serious offenses being tried in criminal court rather than juvenile and that just may be the nature of the beast. A young teen who gets in fights, steals, etc. may be able to amend their behavior but minors who participate in premeditated murder would be classic reoffenders regardless of which court they're tried in.

[fappenhosen]

If you think this is just because 12 year olds don't know right from wrong then why doesn't this kind of thing happen all the time? They know.

You're just stating this based on your gut instinct and limited experience.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/juvenile/bench/different.html

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/business-career/legal/why-are-children-treated-differently-criminal-law

etc

And of course the dangerous corollary to your argument is that children should have the same rights as adults. Alcohol, cigarettes and sex for all! Woo!

[Ghost of V]

So no, I don't see why they'd be put in prison with other adults.

I don't either, yet there are over 3000 children in adult prisons at this very moment.

From: http://www.eji.org/childrenprison
"Across the United States, thousands of children have been sentenced as adults and sent to adult prisons. Nearly 3000 nationwide have been sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. Children as young as 13 years old have been tried as adults and sentenced to die in prison, typically without any consideration of their age or circumstances of the offense."

Articles by the Washington Post support this as well.

The reality is that children are thrown into adult jails, it doesn't happen all the time but it does happen.

Also, what makes you so sure the two children are psychopaths? Their offense? I've given many reasons why they aren't pshychopaths and you have ignored all of them. You're not a mental health professional, are you?

[rooster]

No, I'm not a professional. But I heavily considered a degree in neuroscience but the college I was attending didn't offer a degree program for it. I read a lot about the subject though so I'm really not going on a "gut instinct" it's a pretty educated guess. Planning to murder another human being suggests no empathy or regard for another human life which is a sign of sociopathy. You suggested outside factors which may increase the likelihood of them developing sociopathy. Maybe people with the capacity of sociopathy don't become sociopaths due to a good environment. Neglect, abuse, etc. these can trigger the disorder. So yes, you gave some factors but ones that would create a likelihood for sociopathy not refute it. And writing it up to two kids with a stupid idea and peer pressure? Really? Healthy children don't plan for months to kill other children. I believe it's possible that the one friend could have been coerced to it while the other one was the main schemer. But two healthy children don't pressure each other to murder.

The links fappenhosen provided make sense for less serious offenses e.g. theft, violent outbursts, shooting a gun at another child's face, etc. This case is, once again, premeditated murder. This is not at all giving children the same rights as adults since they are given allowances for being minors as already pointed out. This is to give them a more severe punishment and keep them from society as they are likely to become reoffenders. A good profiler would be able to tell if the leader of the two is capable of being a serial killer and if that is the case then juvenile court will do nothing.

Vauxhall, here's the important part of the quote I posted, "a juvenile offender not being forced to serve time in an adult prison, or with adult prisoners". Of the children serving in adult prisons, does it say whether or not they are serving alongside the adults? Maybe they are kept separate.

[Ghost of V]

Vauxhall, here's the important part of the quote I posted, "a juvenile offender not being forced to serve time in an adult prison, or with adult prisoners". Of the children serving in adult prisons, does it say whether or not they are serving alongside the adults? Maybe they are kept separate.

Children are kept with adults in prison. If not, they are thrown into solitary confinement which can lead to even worse developmental problems. If you had read any of the links I posted you would have picked up on this.

Here's another one.
"On any given night in America, 10,000 children are held in adult jails and prisons. State
laws vary widely as to whether youth can be housed in adult facilities. Although the federal Juvenile
Justice and Delinquency Prevention Act (JJDPA) requires that youth in the juvenile justice system be
removed from adult jails or be sight-and-sound separated from other adults, these protections do not
apply to youth prosecuted in the adult criminal justice system."

One of these children committed premeditated murder. That's fucked up. I agree. However, I am not defending the actions of the child. I just think there is a better way to handle it than treating them as adults and eventually sentencing them to life in prison. I mainly feel this way because: they are not adults. They are not mentally all-there (like adults), they don't understand the consequences of their actions (as much as adults do), and these children haven't even hit puberty yet. It is debatable whether or not these children even have fully developed personalities yet.

For someone interested in neuroscience you have very little understanding of the minds of children. Experts even say that the human brain doesn't develop fully until about 20 years old. To damn these children to die in prison, with or without adults, is criminal and unconstitutional.

[rooster]

For someone interested in neuroscience you have very little understanding of the minds of children. Experts even say that the human brain doesn't develop fully until about 20 years old.

Oh yes, I understand that and I never said any different. The point I've been making again and again is that if the leader is a sociopath then she will not develop to a healthy place as there is no treatment. But you refuse to accept that possibility of her being a sociopath and believe she'll grow up to be a normal functioning adult after plotting a "friend's" murder for up to 3 months that was to take place on her birthday. The victim was stabbed 19 times.

They came home around 9:30 p.m. and went to sleep in Geyser's room.
Geyser and Weier originally had planned to commit the murder at 2 a.m. Saturday, according to the criminal complaint. They'd duct tape their victim's mouth, stab her in the neck and pull the covers up to make it look like she was sleeping. Then they'd run.

But the plans changed after they'd been out rollerskating Friday night. Instead, they'd try to kill her in a bathroom at a nearby park the next morning. Weier knew there was a drain in the floor for the blood to go down, she told police.
[...]
'I didn't feel remorse'

Geyser's report to police was much shorter.

If accused in juvenile court they would be release at 25, but Geyser will not be a healthy adult. This kind of case is pretty rare. For two young females to plot cold-blooded murder. I very much doubt there's a way to help Geyser.

Now I will agree that our justice system has it's fair share of flaws and throwing these girls in jail will not benefit them, but in this circumstance it's mostly to protect the public from people like this instead of hoping that Geyser can become a healthy person capable of living in society.

[Ghost of V]

I'm not refusing to accept the possibility that she is a psychopath. "I didn't feel remorse" is enough to convince me that she probably is some sort of psychopath. Reading up on it, many professionals do not even consider children psychopaths even if they show signs of being one. They usually cite this as "behavior indicating that they may become psychopathic adults".

However, there is still a chance that she will not develop into a psychopath. A mental health professional will have to make the judgement call, of course. It complicates things further because she is a child and is not fully developed.

It would be helpful to know what her parents think. They would certainly know better than anyone if their child showed any sort of psychopathic behavior before the attempted murder took place. In almost all cases, signs of psychopathic behavior were usually present before the attack. I haven't read anything that indicates that these signs were present for Geyser, but of course it is still too early to know everything about this case.

Either way, even if she's a psychopath I don't think she should be tried as an adult. We can't just change the definition of child/adult at will because of the severity of the crime. She should go through juvenile court and be sentenced that way like it is outlined within the contexts of the law. The court apparently has not even made a decision, they are thinking about trying her as an adult but they could certainly change their mind. Some news outlets will not even post the name of the girl for this reason.

[rooster]

It would be helpful to know what her parents think. They would certainly know better than anyone if their child showed any sort of psychopathic behavior before the attempted murder took place. In almost all cases, signs of psychopathic behavior were usually present before the attack. I haven't read anything that indicates that these signs were present for Geyser, but of course it is still too early to know everything about this case.

I've been wondering the same thing since I heard about this. I was hoping the parents would have something to say or there would be instances where she was abusing animals or something but I haven't found anything yet.

She should go through juvenile court and be sentenced that way like it is outlined within the contexts of the law.

Well obviously the law allows minors to be tried as adults based on the severity of the accusations. They're not doing anything illegal here.

[fappenhosen]

No, I'm not a professional. But I heavily considered a degree in neuroscience but the college I was attending didn't offer a degree program for it. I read a lot about the subject though so I'm really not going on a "gut instinct" it's a pretty educated guess.

You can't claim be educated by a course you didn't take.

Planning to murder another human being suggests no empathy or regard for another human life which is a sign of sociopathy.

Relevanting: http://www.theonion.com/articles/new-study-reveals-most-children-unrepentant-sociop,2870/

Social behaviour is learnt. It is therefore unfair to punish those who have not finished learning.

Also sociopathy isn't a crime in itself.

[Ghost of V]

What fappenhosen said.

Plus, lack of empathy does not always mean someone is a psychopath. At this stage in a child's development it would be very easy to misdiagnose and attribute her lack of empathy as sociopathic. She could easily have asperger's syndrome or some other mild form of autism. In which case, she would not necessarily be a danger to society during adulthood.