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Offline honk

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #220 on: April 08, 2020, 05:16:03 PM »
Here's how Bernie can still win.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #221 on: April 09, 2020, 11:01:53 AM »
It's OK, guys, I bet Ben & Jerry's will make a comeback in 2024 to once again ask for your financial support.
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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #222 on: April 09, 2020, 11:25:56 AM »
It's OK, guys, I bet Ben & Jerry's will make a comeback in 2024 to once again ask for your financial support.
Need more income to take of those two million dollar homes he has...

Vacuuming falling hair costs money...

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #223 on: April 09, 2020, 01:12:50 PM »
It's OK, guys, I bet Ben & Jerry's will make a comeback in 2024 to once again ask for your financial support.
Need more income to take of those two million dollar homes he has...

Vacuuming falling hair costs money...

He doesn't own a 2 million dollar home.

He owns:
His residency in Vermont, which he bought back in the 80s when he ran for Mayor. 
His apartment in DC.
A cabin in Vermont.
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Offline honk

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #224 on: April 09, 2020, 04:29:32 PM »
I don't know how seriously to take reddit, but I've already seen a number of angry Bernie supporters vow to never vote for Biden, and even a few say they'll vote for Trump in protest. It's insane. Republicans support their president, arguably the most controversial politician of modern times, almost unanimously, but Democrats can't stop splintering over Bernie. I really hope he doesn't run again in 2024. He's going to end up tearing the party apart.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #225 on: April 09, 2020, 04:36:40 PM »
A party that loses to the likes of Trump needs to be torn apart and put back together again. 

Biden has some work to do to win over Sander's supporters.  He should pick his vp accordingly.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #226 on: April 09, 2020, 05:07:44 PM »
Seems less the party's fault than the fault of the American election system.  The democrats won the popular vote, what more can they do?  I suppose they should hire the likes of Cambridge Analytica so they can mastermind the electoral college a bit more?  Maybe they should gerrymander more?  Blaming the democrats for having the popular vote in 6/7 elections seems like an odd criticism.
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Offline junker

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #227 on: April 09, 2020, 05:38:49 PM »
I don't know how seriously to take reddit, but I've already seen a number of angry Bernie supporters vow to never vote for Biden, and even a few say they'll vote for Trump in protest. It's insane.

Does it really matter which rapist they vote for? Probably better not to vote for any rapist.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #228 on: April 09, 2020, 08:01:03 PM »
Does it really matter which rapist they vote for? Probably better not to vote for any rapist.
Vermin Supreme 2020?
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Offline JRowe

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #229 on: April 09, 2020, 11:05:21 PM »
I don't know how seriously to take reddit, but I've already seen a number of angry Bernie supporters vow to never vote for Biden, and even a few say they'll vote for Trump in protest. It's insane.

Does it really matter which rapist they vote for? Probably better not to vote for any rapist.
Vote for the rapist that doesn't start WW3 to distract from a policy decision.

I've never understood this attitude people have of wanting to elect someone they like as a person. I don't care if I'd throttle them if I spent more than a minute in their company, I'm not voting for someone to go out for drinks with, I'm voting for someone to enact policies. Sure, it'd be nice if they didn't need jail time, but that's not the political system we live in.
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Offline honk

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #230 on: April 10, 2020, 12:40:26 AM »
I don't know how seriously to take reddit, but I've already seen a number of angry Bernie supporters vow to never vote for Biden, and even a few say they'll vote for Trump in protest. It's insane.

Does it really matter which rapist they vote for? Probably better not to vote for any rapist.
Vote for the rapist that doesn't start WW3 to distract from a policy decision.

I've never understood this attitude people have of wanting to elect someone they like as a person. I don't care if I'd throttle them if I spent more than a minute in their company, I'm not voting for someone to go out for drinks with, I'm voting for someone to enact policies. Sure, it'd be nice if they didn't need jail time, but that's not the political system we live in.

There's not being the kind of person you necessarily want to go out drinking with, and there's being a fundamentally bad person, someone who should not be trusted with the power and responsibility of the presidency. Character matters, and the notion that it doesn't is part of how Trump managed to be elected. I honestly don't know what to make of the recent allegations about Biden. The timing makes it hard not to be suspicious, and it's infuriating to think that a scandal like this is poised to bring down the Democratic candidate when Trump has been credibly accused by multiple women of far worse. But committing rape is not something that should be just brushed aside as irrelevant.
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Offline JRowe

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #231 on: April 10, 2020, 12:56:33 AM »
There's not being the kind of person you necessarily want to go out drinking with, and there's being a fundamentally bad person, someone who should not be trusted with the power and responsibility of the presidency. Character matters, and the notion that it doesn't is part of how Trump managed to be elected.
There are three questions I ask of any political candidate.
1. Do I agree with what this person has stated they want to do?
2. Do I believe this person will actually set out to enact what they have claimed?
3. Do I believe this person has any chance of actually getting into a position to enact their policies?

A world where someone who's a rapist is sure to face jail time and consequences is a good one, but it's independent to this. I wish it wasn't, but it has to be.
The problem with 'character matters' is that you aren't voting for a person, you're voting for a party and you're voting for policies. Even the President doesn't act alone. The people they appoint are going to have a huge amount of influence, so the question is whether you can trust the people they are likely to appoint, which is more policy than personality. People voting for character is why we got Trump. There are some lifelong republicans who voted for the party no matter who was in charge of it, but there was so many more who rabidly supported Trump because of how he acted, because he didn't act like a typical politician, a cult of personality is what got him into power. Voting for character is also where you get the diehard Bernie fans who don't vote democrat or vote Trump out of spite for their person not making the ticket. They become so obsessed with character and the person that they don't realize that they're meant to be voting for policy. It happened in 2016 too.
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Offline junker

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #232 on: April 10, 2020, 01:16:59 AM »
There are three questions I ask of any political candidate.
1. Do I agree with what this person has stated they want to do?
2. Do I believe this person will actually set out to enact what they have claimed?
3. Do I believe this person has any chance of actually getting into a position to enact their policies?

Imagine thinking Biden has an actual chance to get elected... Also, have you read Biden's policies lately? He jammed a bunch of stuff in there to sound progressive and there is zero chance he would pursue any of it if somehow he miraculously beat Trump.


Voting for character is also where you get the diehard Bernie fans who don't vote democrat or vote Trump out of spite for their person not making the ticket. They become so obsessed with character and the person that they don't realize that they're meant to be voting for policy. It happened in 2016 too.

Bernie's support comes from his policies. It is completely out of touch and asinine to have the opinion people are devoted to Bernie's "character" and not the cause (aka his policy agenda). In the world of RNC and DNC dog and pony shows I know that can be a little startling.  The only people the DNC have to blame for their 2016 loss and their upcoming 2020 loss are themselves. I am sure after this one they will take some time to reflect and realize they need to change. Or they will just keep repeating the same errors over and over again because a Trump presidency is better for them than someone like Bernie. Aside from this hot take non-sequitur of yours, you should actually go back and look into 2016. I get the feeling your opinion on that is as wrong as most of the stuff you have said so far.

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #233 on: April 10, 2020, 01:28:41 AM »
Imagine thinking Biden has an actual chance to get elected...
I don't think he has much of a chance. Nothing I said commented on his chances. I just pointed out he's a better option than Trump and, realistically, the choice is between the two of them. Trump falls at the first hurdle, Biden falls at the third, every other candidate falls way, way worse at the third. A 1% chance is still better than a 0% chance.

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Bernie's  support comes from his policies.
Partially, but you can't deny those policies have become conflated with him somewhat. Like you pointed out, he's an exception to a lot of the usual rules of politics, no super PACS etc, he stands out from the crowd... That's where a lot of his support has come from, particularly the more fervent corners. That's personality.
Otherwise you're attributing a lot of things to me that I never said. I didn't say the DNC didn't have plenty to blame itself for, I didn't say Bernie didn't have people that supported him for his policies, I didn't say Biden was likely to win or that he had outstanding policies. Biden's an ass. The DNC and American political system in general has a lot of fundamental issues that will never be addressed because those in power rode to victory on them.
It is just also the case that getting invested in who a politician is as an individual, as opposed to a vehicle for policies, is inevitably very dangerous ground to walk on. And some corner of Bernie supporters, not all, but a particular niche corner (there is always a niche corner in any group, and if you can't spot them then you're probably in them) are obsessive over Sanders as much as they are Sanders' policies.
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Offline junker

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #234 on: April 10, 2020, 01:45:20 AM »
I didn't say Bernie didn't have people that supported him for his policies

That is right, you didn't. You focused squarely on people voting for a person/character, and are now acting shocked with some sort of logical follow up to the opinion you put out there. If this group of people even exists (which I doubt you have any evidence of), they would be a rather small minority. The vast majority of Bernie's support is from the policy. Writing a long paragraph about something that doesn't matter adds nothing to the conversation. You also seem to attribute this alleged group of support as the reason Trump won. It is beyond asinine. Trump won in 2016 because Hillary and the DNC ran an absolute garbage campaign, not because of some boogeymen Bernie supporters.

At this point, there is no reason to even engage you in the topic since you don't apparently hold any beliefs that you are willing to share because then you may actually be asked to defend them. It is much easier just to pretend you didn't imply anything regardless of the context of the rest of your post and just point out every literal thing you did not say. A classic example of neoliberal centrist gibberish.

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #235 on: April 10, 2020, 02:05:56 AM »
You also seem to attribute this alleged group of support as the reason Trump won.
No, I really didn't. You invented that wholesale. I get it, you've probably had plenty of bad faith discussions on this, but you could at least wait more than a post before looking for the absolute worst reading of whatever I say. You seem to be working under the idea that I'm trying to make some grand claim about the fate of the election or whatever, and I'm really not, not every post is trying to solve the world's problems. I didn't talk about the people that voted for Bernie because of his policies and then turned around and voted democrat after because they weren't what I was talking about.

It was a factor, yes, I don't know how you could possibly have missed the people who said they'd write-in Bernie's name and such, and the surge in votes for third parties... All of that's established. Now the third party votes can partly be attributed to how Clinton's campaign went and a myriad of issues, so the degree to which the Bernie-obsessives affected the result is definitely up for debate, and it likely has been overplayed, but denying it happened is unjustifiable. Whether or not they swayed the election is impossible to say, it is after all always the worst parts of a movement that are the most vocal, so the vitriol and noise they kicked up wouldn't be proportional to their effect, but they certainly existed.

If you want 'beliefs that I am willing to share,' stick to what I actually said.
1. To claim that all, or even 99%, of any politician's supporters do so strictly for policy is to have an unreasonably optimistic view of the world.
2. The democratic system in the US is rigged to favor those that win a popularity contest more than a political contest, charisma and some degree of identity are required to have a hope to get anywhere. You can have policies that somehow everyone agrees with but if you drone them in a monotone you're going to lose to someone who becomes a meme.
3. Biden is an ass. Trump is worse. The US has a two-party system so realistically they are the only choices.
4. People that become attached to a person rather than policies make decisions based on personal attachment and not what the country needs. If someone beat your fave to the ticket, you're going to be biased against them, and if you're in a position where you take their victory personally, you're going to be less likely to vote for them.
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Offline JRowe

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #236 on: April 10, 2020, 02:24:43 AM »
But, okay, last post because this has gone kind of ridiculously off the rails.

I made a post about how Biden and Trump are not equally bad, and that I don't expect to like the person I elect into office. That was it. That was literally it.
I elaborated a bit when asked and went on a slight tangent about my concerns with how much people prioritize character over policy, or indeed treat it like it matters at all beyond 'will do the job.' I mentioned Trump and his supporters and if you want context, yes, I mentioned the people who insisted on writing in Bernie's name and such in 2016 as I thought they were common knowledge. At no point did I say they singlehandedly swayed the election, I didn't even imply it, not remotely, I used them as an easy example of the larger point I was making to avoid making everything about Trump (as far too much is). It was a handy example and no more, and I don't know how in context it could be read as any more.
That's all I wanted to say. You elevated that to an attack on me, a wholesale invention of what you've probably heard other people say but I never said, and a wild guess at what my politics are. The reason you might be struggling to find a political point to respond to is that there wasn't one, I wasn't talking about who was more electable, I was talking about a flaw in the electoral system and the electoral base that affects all sides.

You turned 'People are too concerned with personality in who they want as President,' into 'Biden is a surefire win! Every Bernie supporter is obsessive and insane and they're the reason Trump got elected and nobody else! No one likes Bernie for hs policies! Hillary was da best! Biden's great!'

"They become so obsessed with character and the person that they don't realize that they're meant to be voting for policy," was not directed solely at Bernie supporters. Context. It's an issue basically worldwide on basically all sides of basically every election. It's the one issue with democracy that there's yet to be any workable large-scale solution to, at least that I've seen. Not every post on a forum is a partisan broadcast.
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Offline junker

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #237 on: April 10, 2020, 02:35:23 AM »
You also seem to attribute this alleged group of support as the reason Trump won.
No, I really didn't. You invented that wholesale.

Voting for character is also where you get the diehard Bernie fans who don't vote democrat or vote Trump out of spite for their person not making the ticket. They become so obsessed with character and the person that they don't realize that they're meant to be voting for policy. It happened in 2016 too.

Yeah, that was a real stretch I made there based on the exact words that you used...


If you want 'beliefs that I am willing to share,' stick to what I actually said.
1. To claim that all, or even 99%, of any politician's supporters do so strictly for policy is to have an unreasonably optimistic view of the world.
So your first belief is about something no one has claimed. Got it.

2. The democratic system in the US is rigged to favor those that win a popularity contest more than a political contest, charisma and some degree of identity are required to have a hope to get anywhere. You can have policies that somehow everyone agrees with but if you drone them in a monotone you're going to lose to someone who becomes a meme.
Turns out some people aren't okay with that. Imagine having some sort of convictions or moral compass and making decisions based on that. But yes, paying lip service to the rigged system makes you seem enlightened so may as well stop there.

3. Biden is an ass. Trump is worse. The US has a two-party system so realistically they are the only choices.
Corrupt rapists who drone brown people in the middle east and keep kids in cages at the Mexico border. You are going to have to do some work to convince anyone Biden is different than Trump. Because aside from personality they are two sides of the same coin.

4. People that become attached to a person rather than policies make decisions based on personal attachment and not what the country needs. If someone beat your fave to the ticket, you're going to be biased against them, and if you're in a position where you take their victory personally, you're going to be less likely to vote for them.
I guess it is important that this isn't some sort of rampant problem. But you should definitely keep droning on about it like it actually makes an impact.


I made a post about how Biden and Trump are not equally bad, and that I don't expect to like the person I elect into office. That was it. That was literally it.
They are equally bad. That is it. It is literally it.

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #238 on: April 10, 2020, 09:47:42 AM »
But yes, paying lip service to the rigged system makes you seem enlightened so may as well stop there.
I'm acknowledging that it exists and that wishing it doesn't isn't going to make it go away. Want to change things, yes, but also work with what you have.


Quote
They are equally bad. That is it. It is literally it.
As people, not as politicians. Their policies categorically are not the same. There's more overlap than there was between Trump and Bernie, but to say Trump and Biden would be equally bad as presidents is to have no understanding of what actually makes a president. They would have different people on their cabinets, they would choose different supreme court justices, they would have different VPs, they would have different likelihoods of changing their mind...

You call it a 'rigged system' how candidates need charisma and character to stand out from the crowd, but you seem to have no problem using it to sort between the options. Bernie rode the same train too, he'd have to to get as far as he did, sure he got screwed over by the DNC needing an establishment pick, but no one gets as close as he did without coming packaged with the usual political marketability. When there are inherent flaws in a political system you need to accept that they also affect the people you like. Otherwise you're not politically savvy, you're just making a cult.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #239 on: April 10, 2020, 09:49:49 AM »
Character is more important than policy.  Not by alot but it is.  First off, congress makes policy.  And they tend to be hard to convince and quick to add in their own crap.

Second, character shows the face of America.  Right now, America is a narcasistic, back stabbing, opportunist asshole.  Quick to anger and ignorant.  And this affects trade.  Peace deals.
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