81

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Flat Earth Starter Pack (and why nasa has been so dishonest)

« on: March 17, 2021, 05:44:58 PM »

Hey fellow flat earthers!!! My name is Oscar.

Welcome! Please be aware that this site is frequented by all sorts, not just "flat earthers" (if such a thing there be).  Many are RE proponents, believers/acolytes, and/or apologists.  Personally, I am a "globe skeptic/denier" and do not know the shape of the entire world with any certainty (I lack the verified and verifiable data to do so, like everyone else)

Over the past few months I have become increasingly interested in the flat earth community and "conspiracy".

There isn't much of any "flat earth community" that I am aware of - do you mean YouTube?  Also, conspiracy is merely a synonym for crime (that involves more than one person) - they happen in huge numbers all the time but don't have relevance to the shape of the earth (as that is inconsequential to human existence / experience / life). What conspiracy do you mean?

Any time I made mention of my belief to friends I've been shunned and made fun of, occasionally I have had to play it off as a joke to avoid getting in a fight.

Belief is often ridiculed (and rightly so) when it comes to matters of fact/knowledge/science.  If you BELIEVE that the world is round, flat, or any other shape - then you have faith, not fact.  Belief has no place in fact/knowledge, least of all scientific, and is directly across purposes.

it has really opened me up to the adversity that is faced when trying to
seek truth.

But I thought you were talking to them about your mere beliefs - when did truth come into this?  You may believe that your beliefs are true, but how can you expect to convey that certainty and truth to others when all you have is an arbitrary belief to begin with / justify it?

I was very excited when I found this forum and realized that it was pretty genuine, unlike other places on the internet, and seemed relatively free from those who seek to troll and chastise.

The trolls are everywhere.  Some of them do so as an imagined public service though, and we should always try and remember what it is like to be them (as we most all believed in a globe at some point).

As a newcomer to this forum and to being an open flat earther I was curious if you fine people had any tips for how to handle being an open flat earther, what do you think I could do to help bring my friends come around, and hopefully resolve a couple of long burning questions I've had about the earth being flat

You can convince/persuade/teach a person of any stupid thing (sucker born every minute).  Helping people "come around" is merely a marketing challenge.  Better to seek the truth together! The first step is recognizing that you are not so much educated as conditioned by rote under the guise of education.  The vast majority of things you learn are not validated to be true before accepting them (you aren't given the time or the training to do so), and so validating those core beliefs/assumptions/unverified "facts" becomes the natural place to begin.  My only advice is to seek for the answers with your friends, not against them.  Remember, you can lead a horse to water - don't try and force them to drink.

Do you think the reason we're being by the government because to much of our economy has become built around hollywood movies that depict space?

I'm not sure what you are talking about "being by the government" or economy, but it is true that the concept and depiction of space has its inception firmly rooted in fiction (which went on to become the first movies - george melies)

Is it possible that the flat earth is a test made by those beyond the wall to see who can determine fact from fiction?

In imagination, all things are possible. In reality, very little (if any) of what we imagine will be correct.

If it is a test is it possible we are in a matrix like simulation?

Again, wild speculation/musing is all well and good but it leads to fiction.  Reality is studied out here, in reality!

There is no more intellectually vapid pursuit than "simulationism". It is a sophist drain where philosophy goes to die.  Judge theories by their fruits (the posit that the world is a simulation has no fruits whatsoever, and is entirely a worthless waste of time as a result)

Also, what would it take to send a weather ballon beyond the wall with a gps and a camera in it, how far do you think it would get before somebody got rid of it?

What wall? The ice shelf is reasonably easy to go beyond, assuming you can get permission to do so.  Some people speculate that there is a dome (not a wall), and because we are supposed inside the dome - there is no way to put a camera outside of it.

In general, no one can stop us from sending the balloons up.  They cost a couple of hundred bucks and there is simply nothing they can do about it short of making balloons illegal (which they may well do if we begin to do such things in large numbers).  In a place like antarctica, enforcement of such a balloon ban would be even more challenging but so would the deadly trek to retrieve the camera once it came back down to retrieve the footage...

I genuinely want to know why so much money is being afforded to these people to protect the true shape of our earth.

The money apportioned to nasa is done at a congressional level. Those people are bought and sold, and do as the bribe money tells them to do.  That's the literal reason nasa gets money.

There is very little, if any, evidence to support that they are protecting/hiding the true shape of the earth.  It is MUCH more conceivable that they simply believe the world is round like every other educated person, which is why their footage/artwork depicts that (as well as lens/"barrel" distortion which is often misrepresented as the "curve" of the horizon/earth when it is plainly not)

I highly recommend reading the wiki here, and also keeping in mind that NASA et al are irrelevant to the shape of the earth and to determining it with certainty.  They (and all "data" which requires abject appeal to authority on faith) are best left out of earnest discussion and research into the shape of the world.

Have a lovely day!
Ever curious,
-Oscar

You too! Stay curious, and share that curiosity (not belief) with your friends/others!

82

Flat Earth Community / Re: Student Researching this Discourse Community

« on: March 17, 2021, 12:49:03 AM »

Welcome!

I'm most happy to answer any questions if I can, however I'd prefer to do so without private messages (in the, likely vain, hope that our conversation might be of benefit to more than just us)

What questions do you have (if not about the science, theory, posits etc)?

83

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Follow up to my last post

« on: March 13, 2021, 07:45:17 PM »

My bad, I just saw another thread with this- can't delete my own threads so idk what to do here

You may be able to request it to be deleted (report the thread yourself, giving that reason), but if/assuming the thread is to stand for posterity - could you link to the thread you found that addresses your question?

84

Flat Earth Community / Re: What should happen to the government?

« on: March 12, 2021, 10:17:44 PM »

@scomato

This is a common misconception. No conspiracy is required for humanity to be stupid and wrong as it, historically, always is.

@hereforresearch

Imagine hypothetically there is a large event in which it is revealed the government is hiding flat-earth and there is indisputable evidence accessible to everyone
that it is the truth.

Ok.  As a purely hypothetical exercise, no problem.  It is important to recognize that governments can't even hide their own rank incompetence and corruption - so the likelyhood of such a thing would almost certainly be only hypothetical.

It is also important to note, for your research, that the tfes wiki here promotes the view that there is no such conspiracy to hide the shape of the earth conducted by anyone.  I highly recommend giving it a thorough read through, whilst remembering that it is a repository of ideas and not "the source of truth" to anyone (flat earth researcher or otherwise).

Anyway, on to the wild and hypothetical speculation!

Now, this would obviously be a new age in humanity and change the overall mindset of most people.

One would hope, however - one would likely be disappointed. Remember snowden? I do.  Everyone just went back to work like nothing happened, muttering things about how they never needed their freedom or privacy anyhow. "I'm no terrorist/criminal", they said...  Those that would sacrifice liberty for security will soon get what they deserve, neither.  Ben franklin knew that centuries ago.

Continuing with the standard model of the government, that would have been lying to people and have a massive conspiracy, would seem foolish.

Humans are creatures of habit, and old habits die hard.  Foolish and "tradition" are somewhat interchangeable.  We do things because we have done them, and the fact that it is stupid and harms us never got in our way before!

Should people create a new model of government?

Obviously what we have now is only working well for significantly less than 1% of humanity.  Do you think that kind of success rate is something to celebrate and continue?

Understanding what the word government means (its etymology, root and suffix) might help answer/negate a lot of your questions.

Basically, what is the best version of the government in the eyes of FEs?

We seem to have veered out of your hypothetical.  Flat earth researchers have many disparate views on this.  There is no "eyes of FE" - no uniform curriculum, approach or conclusions.  We can each only speak for ourselves, as individuals and (largely) independent researchers.

85

Flat Earth Theory / Re: coriolis effect...

« on: March 11, 2021, 04:52:34 PM »

@steelybob

wouldn't a good scientist conclude that maybe the coherent one was the more credible?

Models are for limited and specific use.  A good scientist would never determine the shape of the world in this manner.

86

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Let's do ships again

« on: March 11, 2021, 04:38:44 PM »

@stevecanuck

Same question for you then - if the boat was in fact beyond the visible horizon when this was taken, how would that alter your conception / diagrams?

87

Flat Earth Theory / Re: coriolis effect...

« on: March 10, 2021, 05:56:36 PM »

@tumeni

The driving engine/cause of all weather, all wind, is the sun (we assume).

It's the moving sun!

88

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Help me understand how light rays travel

« on: March 10, 2021, 04:59:06 PM »

@scomato

The last of your examples is wrong.  The rest are right!

The only thing that can alter lights path is direct interaction with matter.  "Gravitational lensing" is fiction with only clear experimental/scientific/demonstrative refutation (no support whatsoever).

89

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Help me understand how light rays travel

« on: March 09, 2021, 07:22:28 PM »

@jimster & steelybob

Air should be equally dense. Why did the light ray not travel straight to me? Where did it go?

Great question(s)!  It went into the water due to interaction with matter on route, as I explained.

Here is a video that shows a demonstration of what is occurring.  We can discuss the why after that!

I would expect density bending to be a gradual proportionate process, but the top of the peak was undistorted with a sharp cutoff. How can that be?

Because the light is still reaching your eyes! The other reason is that when looking upward at an angle, you are looking through much less matter (the same is true in reverse, and is one of the chief reasons we can see farther from higher up)

90

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Help me understand how light rays travel

« on: March 09, 2021, 07:11:13 PM »

@peter

I do hope you will return, but I understand if you do not.  You may want to give the sister site a whirl (search the forums here for it) too.

I am one such "space skeptic/denier", and have concluded that not only is "space" complete fiction (and has its origins, indisputably, in that medium) but that it cannot exist in the reality we study.  It would violate many well established natural laws which have stood for centuries without contest.

The gradient is caused by weight (an intrinsic and inexorable property of all matter) and exists in every container of gas (great and small) for the same reason.  It is a popularly taught misconception that the gradient proves "there's vacuum up there!", and part of the stupidest mythology that mankind has ever concocted (and that is no small feat) - "the infinite sky vacuum".

91

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Help me understand how light rays travel

« on: March 09, 2021, 06:57:39 PM »

@aatw

If so then how you do you determine the shape of the earth?

Aye, that's the rub! You've got it - great question! 

There is only one way to determine the shape of physical objects with certainty and it is not "look at shit"  [the sky, the boat, the horizon etc.] followed by declaration on what you are seeing.  No empirical science is conducted by simply looking (aside from the establishment of natural law, the sole caveat)

92

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Let's do ships again

« on: March 06, 2021, 09:20:31 PM »

@steve

I believe it's an optical illusion similar to seeing "water" far ahead on the highway.

Where is the "false water" (that that mirage causes) in the photo?

93

Flat Earth Theory / Re: coriolis effect...

« on: March 06, 2021, 05:16:06 PM »

@steelybob

Why not just discuss the wind?

I agree.  I think it is because if you scrutinize too closely, the spell is broken.  Once you recognize that local wind is not caused by / related to the presumed rotation of the world, why would it be on any other scale?  Much like studying hydrostatics - if you recognize that no convex curvature (required for the globe to be even potentially possible) exists, then you know there is no scientific or emperical basis for globe belief. It doesn't exist at the scales we study, and so there is no reason to think it could/should on larger ones.

Buys Ballot's law determines the wind direction in relation to the local low pressure,

Exactly! Wind is created through convection.

We all get that coriolis isn't 'real'

WE all very much do not, including you. If the storms merely APPEARED to rotate, due to our presumed rotating reference frame and its presumed non-rotating isolation/separation from that reference frame (or vice versa), but weren't actually - only that would be an example of coriolis.  You, like most people who were miseducated, are talking about ACTUAL rotation - not virtual/reference frame based illusions thereof.

So in the blue corner,

There are no corners.  Reality does not get pay-per-view, nor does it care about/notice the outcome of the pageant/fight that we arbitrate.

Your prize fighter is old and weak, but it doesn't want to greet people at the casino yet so we keep pushing the gurney into the ring anyway so the WWE fanboys can cheer for their favorite lucador one more time.  All prize fighters get weak and old, and are destined to lose.  This is the fate of all models and scientific theories too - so in a way your analogy is, accidentally, quite apt.

94

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I Would Love To Have A Nice Open Discussion

« on: March 06, 2021, 06:28:36 AM »

@temp

I like nice, open discussion as well, however the upper forums are defined as "for debate".  Not that debate can't be friendly, just that it isn't discussion .  As a result, this post may well be moved.

that I didn't see answered in this forum

If you really wanted a nice open discussion - The Lounge looks to be the right place for that as per the forum rules (excerpt below) :

5. Post in the appropriate forum

Read each forum's description and ask yourself if your thread fits. Are you here to investigate and question mainstream authoritative claims? Post in Flat Earth Investigations. Are you looking to critique the Flat Earth Theory? Flat Earth Theory is the board for you! Want to talk about Breaking Bad? That goes in Arts & Entertainment. Have casual discussion in The Lounge and rant about how your day went in Angry Ranting. If you have a suggestion or a concern to do with the forum, such as possible improvements or bugs, post it in Suggestions & Concerns—we'd appreciate it! See? That wasn't so hard.

1)If there's a barrier, edge or dome at Antarctica how do people frequently go there without government aid?(https://www.tripadvisor.com/Cruises-g12-Antarctica-Cruises)(outube.com/watch?v=i7MyWmZljGk)

The dome, IF it is there, would be well beyond the antarctica near the ocean.  Going to antarctica is not precluded by this conception/view (regardless of who pays for it).

2)If the earth is flat, shouldn't there be a map with no distance distortion, shape distortion or area distortion?(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_projection)

Maps are chiefly for (relative) bearing and (estimated) duration; for getting from one location to another.  As long as they are useful for that purpose, there is no reason to alter them.  They do not reflect nor contain the shape of the world, and it is an abuse of maps to attempt to do so.

3)Why does temperature rise when digging "down"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient)(https://www.reference.com/science/temperature-change-depth-earth-f512bcda03abccce)

Pressure caused by the weight above, compressing and forcing everything beneath it closer together.  Another, more speculative / less common, reason is heat coming from below, and although this is evident in the case of active lava flow - those aren't everywhere.

4)A pendulums period can be defined by Period=2π*sq rt(Length/g) This can be easily observed with a simple pendulum made at home. What is the g constant's definition
in the FE model, and why does it change depending on your location within the planet?

I like the way you asked this one!  In that equation, g is the velocity per second that a given, sufficiently dense, object will tend to travel vertically when lifted and allowed to fall.  It is not a constant, and chiefly depends on the interplay between the density of the object and the density of the surrounding fluid as described in archimedes' principle.  Of course the shape of the object as well as the viscosity of the media (and other interacting/relevant properties) play a role too, as well as more minuscule sources of variance like temperature, pressure/altitude, location, and electrical/electrostatic charge.  Ideally, g would be measured using the object you intend to use as a pendulum weight, and would be oriented in a manner close to the direction it would be oriented while oscillating (with respect to the air, not the ground).  Imagine you are doing the pendulum underwater...  You know g (in your perspective/conception) hasn't changed - and yet it must for the equation to continue to work at all...

95

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Let's do ships again

« on: March 05, 2021, 10:15:10 PM »

@tumeni & longitube

How would you alter your understanding/description if you were given/took sufficient measurements to confirm that the ship WAS in fact beyond the visible horizon when this picture was taken?

It is my understanding that pictures like this are not unheard of and they are beyond the horizon.

96

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Let's do ships again

« on: March 05, 2021, 06:15:56 PM »

In my personal working definitions of mirage (1. optical illusion that resembles water typically caused by heating of the air near the surface, 2. a hallucination born of desperation/dehydration), this doesn't really qualify - however I am somewhat surprised to see RE supporters claiming this is NOT a mirage.

I think most consider "mirage" to loosely mean "optical illusion", and this is how the majority come to the conclusion that this qualifies.

@Longitube & Tumeni

I think I am clear on what you are both talking about, but not what you are interpreting is happening to cause the effect.  If it isn't a mirage (I agree) then what is it?  Do you not think the ship is in fact beyond the optical/visible horizon at the time the photo was taken?

97

Flat Earth Community / Re: Fly You To The Moon

« on: March 03, 2021, 05:33:24 PM »

Billionaire : Hey peasant, want a free ticket to the moon?

Peasant : How come you don't want it? What's wrong with it?

98

Flat Earth Theory / Re: coriolis effect...

« on: March 02, 2021, 08:27:20 PM »

So- first of all, ok- drains, etc- on a small scale, yes: coriolis effect does not happen.

Actually, it doesn't happen on large scales either (and is more noticeable there, or ought to be - if the effect occurred/were real).  The coriolis effect is taught correctly to virtually no one.  The things you are talking about, and most people are mistaught are "coriolis effects" or related to it, are in fact ACTUAL/real deflection believed to be caused by the presumed angular momentum of the spinning world.  Coriolis effect is only when a deflection APPEARS to be there, due to varying reference frames (like when a twirling figure skater looks up at the ceiling spinning - the ceiling is not ACTUALLY spinning, it just looks like it is)

But large storm systems are affected by the rotation of the (round) earth.

This is widely believed and taught, but is not certain.  The reasons for prevailing winds (and jet streams, etc.) are well understood, and do not involve the supposed rotation of the world.  Just because those consistent weather patterns tend to cause storms with particular rotations is not "proof" of the shape or motion of the world.

How is this explained in a FE model?

Which one?  Honestly, there isn't a flat earth model (certainly no one agreed upon) - the better/accurate way to phrase your question is something along the lines of "How is this possible if the world is flat?" or "How can this be understood if the world is not spherical?"

99

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?

« on: March 01, 2021, 07:30:55 PM »

@AnthonyDodson

No need to be coy.  Lay it on us!

100

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Real Scientific Experiment

« on: February 27, 2021, 06:58:22 PM »

@razatd

For example, a common misconception that Flat Earthers have is that “water seeks its own level”. They have never made an effort to learn anything beyond a few YouTube videos.

There is no "they".  Flat earth researchers are most often independent and they tend to differ substantially in both approach and conclusion as a result.  It sounds like you have some experience with youtubers - but none with earnest flat earth researchers.

Water's surface does indeed seek its level at rest and this is a demonstrable natural law of hydrostatics that has stood unchallenged for centuries.  In order to refute the law, you MUST repeatedly/rigorously measure water doing something other than that (at rest, under natural conditions, and barring irrelevant miniscus effects - which are also laws and don't in any way contradict the one we are evaluating). No one can or has, which is the reason the law still stands today.

Flat Earthers have still not been able to create a map of the World which shows how disinterested they are in gaining any real knowledge.

Yes, I've often heard it said that cartogrophers are the true height of intellect and knowledge. "Give me a good map, and I won't need books or scientific study" - they say.

Essentially, no one is engaged with cartography (most especially not to determine the shape of the world - which is BELIEVED to be already known), and this is something you should understand.

when Flat Earthers are cornered they just leave the thread. They don’t want to be proven wrong because they don’t want to improve their knowledge.

Yes, I'm sure that is the main reason that people end conversations with you - fear of improving their knowledge.

Many times people choose not to repeat themselves when they have said all that is relevant, other times - life gets in the way (sometimes I respond long after the fact when I get a chance).

This might come as a shock, but the last person who speaks does not "win" the conversation (you can't win a conversation, but you can lose it).  In many cases, they have simply ended it.

Instead of improving their knowledge they chose to remain ignorant.

Old habits die hard!

Take yourself for instance.  You think (because you were taught, and are now repeating) the southern cross proves something about the shape of the world.

You have likely already been explained to  - that looking up to study the shape of what is in the polar opposite direction of you is both unscientific and powerful stupid.  But your habit persists, because you "learned" by conditioning through rote under the guise of education - and fixing what has been damaged by that process will take the same repetition that was required to ingrain it in you (in this case, against logic and reason)

Why is there such a lack of scientific interest in this community?

You aren't talking about science, you are talking about cartography...  It ALSO isn't useful to determine the shape of the world, as that is in no way its purpose.  To try to misuse it in that way presumes measurements that have not been collected.

Why are Flat Earthers not joining effort to map out the surface of the Earth?

Because mapping is NOT the same as measuring!  There are many flat earth researchers engaged in measuring the (local, typically) earth's shape and they have collected some very interesting findings!

One day, the maps will become a priority to fix / reconcile with reality.  However, we don't fix things unless they are broken.  If the map is useful (or we believe it is), then we keep using it. The shape of the world doesn't enter into it.  It's about bearing and duration - the distances can be completely incorrect (especially with local motion, for example - currents / jet-streams) and still be useful / "correct" enough for our purposes.

You can disprove the Globe Earth map.

There are many flaws to harp on about existing maps and always has/will be - why bother? It doesn't have relevance to the shape of the earth.  If you want to know the shape of the world with certainty - you have to measure it rigorously (maps aren't for measuring the world, nor do you measure the whole world to make them)