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Messages - Tron

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201
I'll try to make the distinction between a map and the Earth more clearly in the future.  How do you say "No swimming allowed" in French in case people get the wrong idea about my illustration?  Lol.

202
Your formula in the prior post is very intelligent and when/if I work on another draft than I will remember your methods...

It doesn't completely correspond to my map but generally your points are true.  And why do they call it a Monopole map anyway?  All objects have two poles..  My second pole is just in another location, lol..

203
Generally speaking, distances within the southern hemisphere need to increase between continents but I'm unsure how to do it yet without distorting other places up north.

This is the fundamental point. There is no way of preserving RE distances on a flat plane

I agree with you on this.

If you believe in a flat earth, then implicit in that belief is that somehow almost every distance between two places on the planet is not what it is understood to be

I wouldn't go that far.  We're talking ocean distance and polar region's, not well established travel routes 

To your previous point about the composition of the atmosphere…I think you need to do some reading. The troposphere contains almost all of the moisture in the atmosphere - that’s why you are almost always looking down on the weather when you are cruising in an airliner at or around the tropopause. Above that height things get warmer, not colder.

That's not totally true   If you Wikipedia "Stratosphere" you'll see that temperature is cold in the Stratosphere and only goes up as you approach it's 40km ceiling..  Planes enjoy flying around the lower Stratosphere to avoid Troposphere weather.


Your suggestion would require that thousands of flights everyday end up flying oddly slow, or over longer distances than expected without comment or question -

I'm always open to comments or questions

204
Yes Stack, these are my beliefs, which I reserve the right to change at any time as new information becomes available.

And I see your point about distance problems...   LAX to Sydney on my Trintec FE Map puts distance at 8,250miles.  My map puts it at 3,500miles.  RE at 7,500miles.  And I'm using the ruler measurement technique where I equate a known distance like across Australia and compare it other places.

Generally speaking, distances within the southern hemisphere need to increase between continents but I'm unsure how to do it yet without distorting other places up north.

205
Stack,

This is only a draft.  The distances aren't set in stone.  I even believe the distance between continents in the south may be greater than this map provides accounting for more water.   Just take it easy, these are new ideas and I appreciate your feedback.

206
Why is the air thinner near the edges? How does it stay that way? If it’s thinner, there should be lower atmospheric pressure and therefore a wind developed that would work towards equalizing that pressure difference.


I think the atmosphere freezes as it approaches cold temperature and creates kind of an icy containment wall.  The icy shell might be cloudy, transparent, etc...   It's probably thicker at lower altitudes to contain the majority of air density in the troposphere.  Here's an article on Sun Dogs caused by the Sun's light refracting off Atmospheric Ice Crystals.  https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/01/20/sun-dog-michigan-phenomenon/2632165002/



Within the shell / Within the ice cube, the atmosphere is layered by different densities from heavy to light as you move up in altitude.  But near the Poles of earth, the air becomes thinner more quickly.  The very thin stratosphere for example starts at 4 miles in altitude versus 12 miles at the equator.  I'm not sure why - I used to think it's because your closer to space near the northern edge but seeing as it happens in polar south that sort of negates the argument. 


 

207

I don't know the exact inch measurements that you used, but the problem you're having and why there isn't really an accurate flat earth map to date is that distances must meet reality. You can't just arbitrarily make up distances just to cram things into your map. That's the exact opposite of what cartography is all about.

I'm not making up distances.  I'm trying to get real distances in accordance with FE Theory.  The Atmospheric Dome acts like a magnifying glass above the earth enlarging and shrinking the image as seen from space.  I'm trying to correct for that. 

And from Cape Town to Buenos Aires I agree it's about 2,500 miles compared to 4000miles on a RE as you say.  Why the flight time isn't three hours shorter is because the plane in going slower then believed.   

That's all fine and good. But you should start from reality first and then work your continents and such, not the other way around. For example:
- Seattle to Fairbanks, Alaska is about 1400 miles in reality. On your map, it looks like about 5000-6000 miles. How can that be?  I measure 2,500mies (see map)
- Greenland on your map at its widest point looks like around 7000 miles. In reality, it's just 1100 miles wide. You're 6000 miles off!  I measure about 8,000miles wide.  Has anyone double checked?
- From Moscow to the Bering Straight is just over 5000 miles in reality, straight shot. On your map it's almost double that, 10,000 miles!  I measure almost 12 inches and 15,000miles (see map)

Remember how refraction works with a Dome made of glass, water, or atmosphere ...  It magnifies the inner portion of an image and diminishes the outer portion, so these distances are kind of justified. 
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And SteelyBob if your listening, it occurred to me a big reason why planes travel more quickly up north is because they're closer to the edge of the atmosphere-dome where the air is much thinner. Likewise, towards the middle of earth where the atmosphere is thicker from top to bottom planes travel slower.

208
Your notion would be considered anecdotal pseudo-science at best.

At least you mentioned the word "science" there... lol.


209
Can everyone agree if 2+2=4 you don't need a scientist to tell you so?   Way long ago conditions were different and the answer to medical ailments may have been different then the answers which work today.   What are the answers?  That's where modern science needs to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water as Tom once said.

Some people then and now think spiritual concerns can help or hinder a person's health.  if you take food that was stolen is that better for you than waiting for home grown vegetables?

I've seen a person deal with ailments like Parkinson's.  I told them I think they should stop eating raw fish because you will get help from the spirits of fish who are fluid and constant in motion.  Then Covid-19 hit, and he stopped going out and eating sushi and now he bike rides like he never had it and hasn't mentioned it since.  Psuodo-science?  Perhaps, on some level, but can you really be sure?

One of the great things about FE's and ancient texts is they explore matters unlike they do today.  We generally have research and technology greater than the past but unless you look back or in different places, you might lose something!


210
Flat Earth Theory / Re: questions about day/night sky
« on: December 11, 2021, 01:27:38 AM »
I think it moves like a rainbow in the sky.  It's image moves as you move around..

211
You're saying that airliners are flying in colder weather at the equator then near the poles?
I wouldn’t use the term ‘weather’, but yes, the tropopause air temperature is colder at the equator than it is at the poles. It’s not a rigid thing, of course, so we’re talking in general terms, but the important point to hoist aboard is that flying over a hot country at 40,000ft does not mean that the air outside will be hotter than that over a cold country - other factors dominate. I should also point out that the height of the tropopause also varies - it tends to be lower towards the poles.

That was good information thank you.  I'd just add that along shorter distances planes do not have a lot of time to travel at high altitudes in favorable conditions.  So, when adverse winds and higher temps do play a role, I don't think they have a huge advantage over planes zipping by up north.

If two people are running a marathon and one is bombarded by wind and temp and humidity I don't' think it's unrealistic to assume he will not travel the same distance in an equal amount of time.  Even half the distance isn't impossible


Quote
And yes, I agree the distances may not be perfect, but please keep in mind I do feel the planes are flying slower from LAX to Sydney because the wind is against them and its hotter.

There’s lots to unpack there. Science isn’t about feelings - it’s about evidence. As for the hotter bit - you seem to have completely misunderstood that. Even if it was hotter, which it isn’t, that wouldn’t affect the speed, just the amount of fuel burnt along the way.

I don't know how to respond.  I told you what I know about the issue and you disagree.

Furthermore, and again, your calculations have to work in both directions. You can’t have a headwind both ways to explain a discrepancy.

I don't know what this means?


212
You're saying that airliners are flying in colder weather at the equator then near the poles?

A plane from London to LA flies in a similar route both ways because they are trying to fly within a jet stream or outside of it and usually pick the side with colder weather like near Greenland.

And yes, I agree the distances may not be perfect, but please keep in mind I do feel the planes are flying slower from LAX to Sydney because the wind is against them and its hotter.

213
Stack -

LAX to Sydney measures around 4 inches.  Trans-Siberian Railway measures around 6 inches.  LAX to Sydney is about 66% of TLR's distance which is about 3,844mi.  I overestimated but allow room for error as open water distances are harder to map.

I measure 2 inches between Cape Town to Buenos Aires and CP to Perth.  And since Australia is about 2 inches wide and 2,500mi across, that's the distance I'd use.

I'd go into specifics on how I created the map, but generally speaking you take a South Centered Azimuthal Equidistant Map, then half the southern hemisphere and widen the continents so they reflect accepted travel distances.   Doing this pulls down the northern hemisphere and squeezes the continents so they aren't too wide.  You have to again squeeze them to fit.  After this, you double the northern perimeter of the map beyond 60N Latitude (which I didn't fully do) so vertical integrity is maintained and it doesn't look stretched anymore admitting however that horizontal land has increased up there. The Yeti would be proud. 


214
Stack: Take a look at this map.  I mapped out the flight paths from New Dehli to Chicago and London to LA.  All of them encounter the same difficulties when trying to fly across the southern hemisphere.  They run into multiple Head-On Jet Steams.  Heathrow to Seattle runs you against maybe 4 or 5 jet streams.  Going north is longer but you only run into 2 at most.  Not to mention is colder, smoother, etc.. 

And to answer your previous question, it's about 7,500mi from Lax to Sydney with spherical Great Circle calculations.  Straight line I have it about 5,000 miles.

Duncan:  Your question as to why planes from New Delhi to Chicago go north rather then fly south is the same as Stacks question.  You would cross multiple jet streams and in hot weather at times.  They actually fly almost directly north to cold weather before going west to Chicago (as the map illustrates).

And why are Great Circles relevant to a FE?  There not except in the sense they follow the path of Jet Streams.

Steely Bob:  You asked about why planes don't travel near the equator since high altitude temperatures within the troposphere are lower than in polar regions.  True, but most commercial aircraft travel in the stratosphere where the air is thinner in polar regions which translates into less drag, increased speed, and better fuel economy. 

I also mapped out London to Buenos Aires and London to LAX.  Even though Bueno is closer, you have to travel in hot weather and against maybe 3 jet streams. 

Lastly, in terms of map dimensions and distance, I fully understand objections to a Flat Map and how exaggerated some regions are and very small in others.  This map tries to correct for that by shortening the south and bringing the northern hemisphere down into real size (barring polar extremes).  I listed the same distances across many continents and as you can see Australia and America are similar in width. 

                         

215
Quote
Like a frisbee, the Earth wobbles once a year
.

How does it wobble if the whole surface is being accelerated at the same rate all the time?

I personally think Gravity is caused by Magnetism.  The earth emits a negative charge which somehow influences how people can walk on it. 

216
Hi Duncan,

Planes from LA to Europe take Great Circle Paths on FE because they are following the path of Jet Streams that circle the world.  Jet Streams are incredibly powerful streams of wind that run West to East and help carry a plane to their destination - sometimes doubling their speed. 

Flying in cold weather also helps with Fuel Efficiency.  So, when Pan AM starts to make their return trip from London, they are now flying across and against jet streams and in warmer weather conditions which may explain the added fuel stops. 

Flying from East to West planes also take "Great Circle" paths because they try to avoid going against jet streams and pick the colder side which again is smoother and more efficient.

Traditionally, "Great Circle" paths are thought of as the shortest distance from point A to B on a spherical earth and look like straight lines.

Here's an image of Jet Streams on a spherical earth and a flat earth.







217
Flat Earth Theory / Re: questions about day/night sky
« on: December 08, 2021, 04:06:35 PM »

Perhaps the totality of your position, simply put,  is: "The earth is flat and there is a dome. I have no idea how people under this dome can see a daytime sky in one place and a nighttime sky in another at the same time."

Do you acknowledge that RET explains this? Do you admit that FET has only the conviction that it can be explained, but has no explanation?

I can agree with alot of this but I do have a  good idea how this works on a FE.   It's a reasonable scientific inquire IMO. I'd prefer to continue this conversation later as more information comes in. 

218
Flat Earth Theory / Re: questions about day/night sky
« on: December 06, 2021, 05:07:44 PM »
It's your distance from the sun that makes the sun set through a Dome.  And if you compare the atmosphere to a vacuum, you'd have to admit it's pretty thick. 

219
Flat Earth Theory / Re: questions about day/night sky
« on: December 06, 2021, 04:09:36 PM »
I will provide you with all of the answers!  just kidding...

The answer is that the sun and stars are above earth at all times.  And without any atmosphere, your arguments hold true - You should see the sun from all three states, there should be no sharp termination line of sunrise or sunset, and people from around the world should probably see every star everywhere provided they are high enough in the sky.   

But, once you place a dome beneath you and celestial objects, then refraction changes their image.

It explains why the Sun sets quickly from Missouri to Utah and why you see stars normally blocked by the sun coming into view after sunset, etc.  I can't explain the mechanism behind it, other than it is demonstratable on a small scale.

Here's a link explaining the general picture of earth and the solar system. 

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18768.0





   

220
Flat Earth Theory / Re: questions about day/night sky
« on: December 05, 2021, 08:43:07 PM »
Jimster I will try to answer your questions but a similar Q &A about sunrise/set was here to start.  https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18506.0

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