The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: Flatout on April 21, 2017, 04:23:22 AM

Title: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 21, 2017, 04:23:22 AM
So, my 10 year old and I have be watching Jupiter for several months.  On the weekends  we have getting up in the middle of the night to check it out. We live at 44° north latitude. We have noticed:
1) The solar ecliptic has been getting higher in the sky over the last few months.
2) The planetary ecliptic has been getting lower for the last few months.

This makes sense with heliocentric model with the axis of the earth tilted at 23.5°.  The northern hemisphere is tipped towards the sun during the day causing the ecliptic if the sun to rise.  At night it's tipped away form the planetary ecliptic​ causing the planetary ecliptic to be closer to the southern horizon.

What is the flat earth explanation for this observation?  According to the wiki the planets orbit the sun. If the sun is revolving around a more northern latitude approaching summer then why don't the planets also appearing to be higher in the sky.  Instead the opposite is observed.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: junker on April 21, 2017, 04:32:40 AM
Hi there. While this is certainly an interesting, unsubstantiated anecdote, it really isn't a question about FET. Rather, it's a question from one person based on a specific, alleged observation. This forum is mostly reserved for those interested in asking questions about FET, not trying to debate a scenario that may or may not exist. I'm going to move to FE General for now.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 21, 2017, 04:35:53 AM
Junker, you are kidding right?  You haven't noticed this yourself?  You're insinuating that I'm the only person to ever observe this?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: junker on April 21, 2017, 04:39:48 AM
Junker, you are kidding right? 
No.

Quote
You haven't noticed this yourself? 
No.

Quote
You're insinuating that I'm the only person to ever observe this?
No.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 21, 2017, 04:46:28 AM
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: IonSpen on April 21, 2017, 07:39:17 PM
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?
If it's not on YouTube they probably don't see it. I have been watching jupiter as well, and you are correct. So that makes at least two of us. I'm sure there's more. Jupiter isn't exactly hard to identify, look east after sunset. The brightest object in the sky.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: junker on April 21, 2017, 07:55:14 PM
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?
You sure can, although you would have to talk about it with those who put together the wiki. Observation is key, I agree.


If it's not on YouTube they probably don't see it.
What on earth are you going on about? You obviously know absolutely nothing of the community here. Ignorance seems to be the favorite utility of this newer batch of RE noobs.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 22, 2017, 12:19:53 AM
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?

Empiricism. The retrograde tells us that it is revolving around the sun. If the planets were revolving around the northern hub they would not retrograde.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 22, 2017, 12:31:23 AM
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?

Empiricism. The retrograde tells us that it is revolving around the sun. If the planets were revolving around the northern hub they would not retrograde.
Gotcha.  Why does the planets ecliptic decline in elevation while the solar ecliptic increase in elevation?  When the solar ecliptic decrease in elevation after the summer solstice the planetary ecliptic at night starts to  increase in elevation.  Why? 
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 22, 2017, 02:12:47 AM
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?

Empiricism. The retrograde tells us that it is revolving around the sun. If the planets were revolving around the northern hub they would not retrograde.
Gotcha.  Why does the planets ecliptic decline in elevation while the solar ecliptic increase in elevation?  When the solar ecliptic decrease in elevation after the summer solstice the planetary ecliptic at night starts to  increase in elevation.  Why?

The planets are only seen at night when they are on the opposite side of the earth from the sun. If the solar plane system is gradually tilting higher, with the sun constantly affixed fixed to its highest point, it follows that whatever is on the opposite side of that sun will be seen to be lower than what was recently seen. And vice-versa, when the solar plane system is tilting lower, with the sun constantly affixed to its lowest point, whatever is rotating in that system on the opposite side of the sun would be seen to be higher than what was recently seen.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Nirmala on April 22, 2017, 02:32:10 AM
Venus can sometimes be seen in the daytime: http://www.space.com/24667-rare-venus-daytime-sky-views.html

Also Jupiter and maybe Mars: http://earthsky.org/space/10-surprising-things-to-see-in-the-daytime-sky

This site has a video with observations of Mercury, Mars and even Saturn in the daytime: http://sky.velp.info/daystars.php
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 22, 2017, 03:02:58 AM
Tom, I'm trying to understand what you are saying. Are you saying the orbital plane of the planets is tilted at an angle compared to the plane of the earth?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Rounder on April 23, 2017, 04:28:47 AM
The planets are only seen at night when they are on the opposite side of the earth from the sun. If the solar plane system is gradually tilting higher, with the sun constantly affixed fixed to its highest point, it follows that whatever is on the opposite side of that sun will be seen to be lower than what was recently seen. And vice-versa, when the solar plane system is tilting lower, with the sun constantly affixed to its lowest point, whatever is rotating in that system on the opposite side of the sun would be seen to be higher than what was recently seen.

Tom, I'm trying to understand what you are saying. Are you saying the orbital plane of the planets is tilted at an angle compared to the plane of the earth?

Me too.  Tom, can you post a drawing of what you have in mind here?  A simplified system including only the Earth, Sun, and Jupiter would suffice to illustrate the premise, I think.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 23, 2017, 10:19:00 PM
Venus can sometimes be seen in the daytime: http://www.space.com/24667-rare-venus-daytime-sky-views.html

Also Jupiter and maybe Mars: http://earthsky.org/space/10-surprising-things-to-see-in-the-daytime-sky

This site has a video with observations of Mercury, Mars and even Saturn in the daytime: http://sky.velp.info/daystars.php

Those observations are in twilight, and even so, a twilight observation would have a slightly higher (or lower) ecliptic than a midnight observation. The solar plane of the sun and planets is tilted. It is tilted in RET as well, except that it is claimed that the cause is the earth being tilted.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 23, 2017, 11:36:37 PM
By what angle is the planetary plane tilted in the flat earth understanding?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 25, 2017, 12:17:24 AM
By what angle is the planetary plane tilted in the flat earth understanding?

The angle changes throughout the year. The Sun moving along the ecliptic:

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/Z7rIF4JhMOKE8/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 25, 2017, 02:23:09 AM
Tom, I fully understand the change in the solar ecliptic throughout the year.  I'm looking for an explanation of why then planetary ecliptic declines while the solar ecliptic inclines.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 25, 2017, 02:34:24 AM
Tom, I fully understand the change in the solar ecliptic throughout the year.  I'm looking for an explanation of why then planetary ecliptic declines while the solar ecliptic inclines.

If one side of a dish is tilted downwards, the other side of the dish will be tilted upwards. If the sun is low, the planets seen at night will be high.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 25, 2017, 02:35:47 AM
Tom, I fully understand the change in the solar ecliptic throughout the year.  I'm looking for an explanation of why then planetary ecliptic declines while the solar ecliptic inclines.

If one side of a dish is tilted downwards, the other side of the dish will be tilted upwards.
By what degree?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 25, 2017, 02:36:55 AM
Tom, I fully understand the change in the solar ecliptic throughout the year.  I'm looking for an explanation of why then planetary ecliptic declines while the solar ecliptic inclines.

If one side of a dish is tilted downwards, the other side of the dish will be tilted upwards.
By what degree?

The degree varies throughout the year. See the image I posted above. The degrees are listed in the left margin.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 25, 2017, 03:39:07 AM
The gif you supplied is the apparent ecliptic of the sun.  What is the "tilt" of the planetary plane?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 25, 2017, 03:45:28 AM
The gif you supplied is the apparent ecliptic of the sun.  What is the "tilt" of the planetary plane?

The sun and planets are one plane. Please follow along.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 25, 2017, 03:55:19 AM
Tom, I fully understand the change in the solar ecliptic throughout the year.  I'm looking for an explanation of why then planetary ecliptic declines while the solar ecliptic inclines.

If one side of a dish is tilted downwards, the other side of the dish will be tilted upwards. If the sun is low, the planets seen at night will be high.
You just stated that the "dish" was tilted.  What is the dish you are are referring to in the above quote?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 25, 2017, 04:37:18 AM
Tom, I fully understand the change in the solar ecliptic throughout the year.  I'm looking for an explanation of why then planetary ecliptic declines while the solar ecliptic inclines.

If one side of a dish is tilted downwards, the other side of the dish will be tilted upwards. If the sun is low, the planets seen at night will be high.
You just stated that the "dish" was tilted.  What is the dish you are are referring to in the above quote?

The sun and planets are on the same "dish", or "plane," or whatever you choose to call it.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 25, 2017, 04:47:11 AM
So what angle is the "dish" tilted at compared to the earth?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 25, 2017, 05:06:51 AM
So what angle is the "dish" tilted at compared to the earth?

The tilt changes throughout the year, and I provided an illustration which shows what angles it tilts between. The apparent angles in the sky it moves between are listed in the left margin:

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/Z7rIF4JhMOKE8/giphy.gif)


This "dish" is constantly tilting throughout the year, or rather wobbling, with the sun being a fixed location on that wobbling dish. This means that when the sun is low whatever is on the opposite side of the dish is high, and when the sun is high, whatever is on the opposite night side is low.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: model 29 on April 25, 2017, 05:20:07 AM
Does anyone have an idea of the difference in height between the sun's high and low periods?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 25, 2017, 12:38:45 PM
Does anyone have an idea of the difference in height between the sun's high and low periods?
47 degrees.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 25, 2017, 12:47:20 PM
So what angle is the "dish" tilted at compared to the earth?

The tilt changes throughout the year, and I provided an illustration which shows what angles it tilts between. The apparent angles in the sky it moves between are listed in the left margin:

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/Z7rIF4JhMOKE8/giphy.gif)


This "dish" is constantly tilting throughout the year, or rather wobbling, with the sun being a fixed location on that wobbling dish. This means that when the sun is low whatever is on the opposite side of the dish is high, and when the sun is high, whatever is on the opposite night side is low.
So the sun is changing it's distance from the surface of the earth as moves between the tropic of Capricorn​ and Cancer?  Is the sun at the center of the dish?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: model 29 on April 26, 2017, 02:16:44 AM
Does anyone have an idea of the difference in height between the sun's high and low periods?
47 degrees.
I guess I should have worded that differently.  I meant the number of miles it varies from the standard "3,000" mile height figure.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on April 29, 2017, 04:47:01 PM
Tom, is the sun at the center of dish/plane?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 01, 2017, 02:44:47 AM
Tom, is the sun at the center of dish/plane?

No.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on May 01, 2017, 03:08:02 AM
Tom, is the sun at the center of dish/plane?

No.
What is the distance of the sun from the center?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 01, 2017, 03:09:49 AM
Tom, is the sun at the center of dish/plane?

No.
What is the distance of the sun from the center?

It depends on the time of the year.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on May 01, 2017, 03:24:01 AM
Tom, is the sun at the center of dish/plane?

No.
What is the distance of the sun from the center?

It depends on the time of the year.
What is its distance right now?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 01, 2017, 04:08:52 AM
Tom, is the sun at the center of dish/plane?

No.
What is the distance of the sun from the center?

It depends on the time of the year.
What is its distance right now?

Figure out the present latitude of the sun and then find the distance between that latitude and the Northern Geographic Pole.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Flatout on May 01, 2017, 04:11:19 AM
And what is the present tilt angle of the "dish"?
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: gwrox007 on November 13, 2021, 01:33:42 AM
Venus can sometimes be seen in the daytime: http://www.space.com/24667-rare-venus-daytime-sky-views.html

Not to mention the fact that Venus can be seen to have phases. How is that possible if it can only be seen when it is opposite the sun from Earth? Or is Venus not a spheroid either?

Also Jupiter and maybe Mars: http://earthsky.org/space/10-surprising-things-to-see-in-the-daytime-sky

This site has a video with observations of Mercury, Mars and even Saturn in the daytime: http://sky.velp.info/daystars.php
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: gwrox007 on November 13, 2021, 01:41:22 AM
Does anyone have an idea of the difference in height between the sun's high and low periods?
47 degrees.

Where is the vertex of that angle? I mean physically.
Title: Re: Planetary Ecliptic
Post by: Trillion on November 13, 2021, 09:23:11 AM
Quote
Those observations are in twilight, and even so, a twilight observation would have a slightly higher (or lower) ecliptic than a midnight observation. The solar plane of the sun and planets is tilted. It is tilted in RET as well, except that it is claimed that the cause is the earth being tilted.
I have observed Venus, Jupiter through my telescopes within an hour of local noon so that can hardly be described as twilight. It's easy to do if you have a permanently set up and aligned mount. I simply tap in Venus or Jupiter into the handset and the mount slews to where they are in the sky.  You then tweak the focus and gain settings to suit.  Broad daylight is actually the best time to observe or image Venus as it hides the glare you get during twilight. If the seeing is good you can then find Venus with the naked eye at any time of day.

By solar plane I take it you mean the ecliptic. Which is of course inclined by 23.5 degrees to the celestial equator. So the ecliptic represents the precise path of the Sun through the sky. It is inclined by 23.5 degrees to the celestial equator because of the tilt of the Earths polar axis.  There is no 'claimed' about it. That is what gives us our seasons and why the Suns declination varies from 23.5N to 23.5S every year.

That is the model which I will take to be true and correct unless you've (FEers) got any better ideas which work just as well?!?

Quote
This "dish" is constantly tilting throughout the year, or rather wobbling, with the sun being a fixed location on that wobbling dish.
Based on FE theories, why is this "dish" tilting or wobbling throughout the year? Obviously if you believe the Earth is flat then you have to ignore the polar axis tilt which RE provides.  So how do you account for this wobble instead?

The planets formed from an accretion disk which formed around the newly formed Sun. This disk formed in a plane which was in line with the solar equator which is why all the planets tend to follow paths through the sky which are very close to the ecliptic. Obviously I wasn't around at the time to witness all that but that's because the human lifetime is rather less than 4.6 billion years!

Again, if FE can provide any better explanations then I am all ears...