planes
« on: January 04, 2018, 11:34:13 PM »
So if the earth is flat, why does it only take a couple hours to fly from one side of the world to another? Wouldn't you have to fly directly across the whole world if it was flat?

Re: planes
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2018, 09:10:37 PM »
Because it’s not flat. It’s spherical. You go around it, not across it.

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Offline juner

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Re: planes
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2018, 01:28:41 AM »
Because it’s not flat. It’s spherical. You go around it, not across it.

Excellent, you think earth is spherical (which is still wrong regardless of model). If you’re not going to actually contribute, refrain from posting in the upper fora. Warned.

JohnAdams1145

Re: planes
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2018, 01:54:35 AM »
So if the earth is flat, why does it only take a couple hours to fly from one side of the world to another? Wouldn't you have to fly directly across the whole world if it was flat?

Regardless of what junker says, the Earth is round. And it takes about 20 seconds to circumnavigate the globe if you're at the North (or South, contrary to the garbage AE map) pole; just walk around the pole. You should take a look at the FE map; it is a series of concentric circles representing lines of latitude. This means that regardless of the model, a few hours time is reasonable. What aren't reasonable, however, are the various distances that the FE map purports to give (my favorite was South Africa to Australia). The reason why an authoritative, consistent FE map hasn't been given is because it's an impossible task. The distances between points on Earth effectively fix it to be the shape it is. If you measure a triangle on Earth, you'll find that the sum of its angles exceeds 180 degrees. This is proof enough that the Earth is round.

Those who say the Earth is flat are misinformed about the geometry of the Earth, a lot of science, the nature of the scientific method, and sometimes a lot of science.

Re: planes
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 12:12:45 AM »
Yeah, I'm looking for evidence to disprove JohnAdams1145 and I. Not for a warning. The earth is round, 'regardless of model.' I want answers, not a warning.

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Re: planes
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 12:39:55 AM »
Yeah, I'm looking for evidence to disprove JohnAdams1145 and I. Not for a warning. The earth is round, 'regardless of model.' I want answers, not a warning.

This has nothing to do with the topic.

Warned.

JohnAdams1145

Re: planes
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 06:20:56 AM »
It appears you have a misconception on how FE believes circumnavigation occurs. Circumnavigation in the FE model is flying in concentric circles around the North (why not South? Because FE is false.) pole. This means that polar circumnavigation is impossible in the FE model (it's happened, sorry FE!). This also means that geostationary satellites are compatible with the FE model (until you take pictures of course).

totallackey

Re: planes
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 03:52:16 PM »
So if the earth is flat, why does it only take a couple hours to fly from one side of the world to another? Wouldn't you have to fly directly across the whole world if it was flat?

Regardless of what junker says, the Earth is round. And it takes about 20 seconds to circumnavigate the globe if you're at the North (or South, contrary to the garbage AE map) pole; just walk around the pole. You should take a look at the FE map; it is a series of concentric circles representing lines of latitude. This means that regardless of the model, a few hours time is reasonable. What aren't reasonable, however, are the various distances that the FE map purports to give (my favorite was South Africa to Australia). The reason why an authoritative, consistent FE map hasn't been given is because it's an impossible task. The distances between points on Earth effectively fix it to be the shape it is. If you measure a triangle on Earth, you'll find that the sum of its angles exceeds 180 degrees. This is proof enough that the Earth is round.

Those who say the Earth is flat are misinformed about the geometry of the Earth, a lot of science, the nature of the scientific method, and sometimes a lot of science.
All maps, when unfolded, are flat.

Flat maps have existed before the depiction of the Earth on a spherical surface {i.e., GLOBE).

It is the GLOBE that requires the alteration of the flat map to fit its surface.

Any map presented to any explorer south of the Equator has errors to this day (becoming fewer and fewer) and that explorer will soon find themselves off-heading, sometimes up to several hours of travel time.

The reason? The explorer ASSUMES A SPHERICAL EARTH, rather than just trusting the flat map.

Re: planes
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 04:06:11 PM »
So if the earth is flat, why does it only take a couple hours to fly from one side of the world to another? Wouldn't you have to fly directly across the whole world if it was flat?

Regardless of what junker says, the Earth is round. And it takes about 20 seconds to circumnavigate the globe if you're at the North (or South, contrary to the garbage AE map) pole; just walk around the pole. You should take a look at the FE map; it is a series of concentric circles representing lines of latitude. This means that regardless of the model, a few hours time is reasonable. What aren't reasonable, however, are the various distances that the FE map purports to give (my favorite was South Africa to Australia). The reason why an authoritative, consistent FE map hasn't been given is because it's an impossible task. The distances between points on Earth effectively fix it to be the shape it is. If you measure a triangle on Earth, you'll find that the sum of its angles exceeds 180 degrees. This is proof enough that the Earth is round.

Those who say the Earth is flat are misinformed about the geometry of the Earth, a lot of science, the nature of the scientific method, and sometimes a lot of science.
All maps, when unfolded, are flat.

Flat maps have existed before the depiction of the Earth on a spherical surface {i.e., GLOBE).

It is the GLOBE that requires the alteration of the flat map to fit its surface.

Any map presented to any explorer south of the Equator has errors to this day (becoming fewer and fewer) and that explorer will soon find themselves off-heading, sometimes up to several hours of travel time.

The reason? The explorer ASSUMES A SPHERICAL EARTH, rather than just trusting the flat map.
Any evidence for this claim at all? Or just throwing it into the wind?

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Re: planes
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 05:27:28 PM »
Any evidence for this claim at all? Or just throwing it into the wind?

You would have to test the principle yourself in order to be truly convinced, but trust that navigators - naval, aerial, and terrestrial - factor the curvature of the earth into their calculations.

I can give you an anecdotal example, if you want.
When an honest man discovers that he is mistaken, either he will cease being mistaken...

... or he will cease being honest.

 - a loyal slave to reason and doubt

Re: planes
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 05:41:31 PM »
Any evidence for this claim at all? Or just throwing it into the wind?

You would have to test the principle yourself in order to be truly convinced, but trust that navigators - naval, aerial, and terrestrial - factor the curvature of the earth into their calculations.

I can give you an anecdotal example, if you want.
Huh? He was claiming all maps of things South of the equator have errors to this day, and sailors still find themselves hours off course. Do *you* have evidence of this, even anecdotal?

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Re: planes
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 05:54:36 PM »
Any evidence for this claim at all? Or just throwing it into the wind?

You would have to test the principle yourself in order to be truly convinced, but trust that navigators - naval, aerial, and terrestrial - factor the curvature of the earth into their calculations.

I can give you an anecdotal example, if you want.
Huh? He was claiming all maps of things South of the equator have errors to this day, and sailors still find themselves hours off course. Do *you* have evidence of this, even anecdotal?

I'm sorry lol

I completely misread what was being conveyed. My fault for skimming.

The point, evidence or no, is that totallackey is making two mistakes.

First, the fact that we started off designing maps that depicted the earth as flat is really quite meaningless, as it fits in with both models.

If the earth was a sphere, the fact that we designed FLAT maps is a reflection of two or three things: 1) Our limited perspective, 2) We tend to draw things on flat canvases like paper, sheepskin, etc., 3) Those canvases are almost always flat, unless wrapped around something that isn't.

The fact that the map is flat isn't an indication that the world itself is ACTUALLY flat. I can draw a convincing sketch of your profile in order to represent what you look like; it doesn't mean you're flat in REALITY just because I depicted you on a flat sheet of paper. The same principle holds for what totallackey is noticing about maps.

So again, this point is really irrelevant, as it fits in with the globe model AND flat earth model. Other things do not.

As for this claim about navigation being way off in the southern hemisphere, I'd like to hear more information as well.
When an honest man discovers that he is mistaken, either he will cease being mistaken...

... or he will cease being honest.

 - a loyal slave to reason and doubt

Re: planes
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 05:56:38 PM »
It appears you have a misconception on how FE believes circumnavigation occurs. Circumnavigation in the FE model is flying in concentric circles around the North (why not South? Because FE is false.) pole. This means that polar circumnavigation is impossible in the FE model (it's happened, sorry FE!). This also means that geostationary satellites are compatible with the FE model (until you take pictures of course).

I've seen that there is even contention between North-pole-centric flat Earthers and Southism, see for example this thread: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=8382.0

The video in that thread goes into plane trips in a hilarious way - the Northist criticises the Southist for not finding nonstop flights, but then fails to look for nonstop flights when considering the southern hemisphere. The same argument used to disprove South-Pole-centric flat Earth also disproves North-Pole-centric flat Earth.

Re: planes
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2018, 10:21:15 PM »
I want to find a why to fall off of the edge…

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Offline juner

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Re: planes
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2018, 12:42:54 AM »
I want to find a why to fall off of the edge…

Refrain from low-content posting in the upper fora. Warned.

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Re: planes
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2018, 03:31:48 AM »
Flat maps have existed before the depiction of the Earth on a spherical surface {i.e., GLOBE).
True, but were those "flat maps" maps of a "flat earth"?

Quote from: totallackey
It is the GLOBE that requires the alteration of the flat map to fit its surface.
That is rather obvious I would have thought. Oone of the earliest projections happens to be:
Quote
Compare Map Projections
Azimuthal Equidistant Projection (polar aspect)

         Azimuthal Equidistant Projection (polar aspect)
Creator         Abū Rayḥān al-Bīrūnī (1000 AD approx.)
Group         Azimuthal
Property         Equidistant
Recognise it?

From: Map Projections
And al-Bīrūnī just happened to be a very accomplished Muslim Astronomer, Geodetic Surveyor who made many quite accurate measurements of the Globe. He used the "horizon dip angle" to measure the earth's radius to within about 1% of the modern value.

Quote from: totallackey
Any map presented to any explorer south of the Equator has errors to this day (becoming fewer and fewer) and that explorer will soon find themselves off-heading, sometimes up to several hours of travel time.
Unless you can provide some documentary evidence of that, I am going to insist that it is totally fabricated rubbish!

Quote from: totallackey
The reason? The explorer ASSUMES A SPHERICAL EARTH, rather than just trusting the flat map.
And that is also total rubbish. There are many quite accurate "flat maps" that are projections of portions of the Globe but there is no accurate Flat Earth map.

Even this Flat Earth Society makes no such claim and presents these two "continental layouts":
Quote from: TFES.org Wiki
Layout of the Continents
There are several theories concerning the nature and extent of Antarctica, as well as the overall layout of the continents.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Below are images of the two Flat Earth geographic models, which convey the different concepts of Antarctica within Flat Earth Theory:
Ice Wall model:
          As a distinct continent:
From: TFES.org, Layout of the Continents

totallackey

Re: planes
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2018, 10:23:32 AM »
Unless you can provide some documentary evidence of that, I am going to insist that it is totally fabricated rubbish!

totallackey

Re: planes
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2018, 11:02:44 AM »
Further information on out-of-whack sailing found here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=GzkKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=great+circle+sailing+advantages+and+disadvantages&source=bl&ots=U25dKJXOU9&sig=fpThIgJ3HPH2VC6Bxj18uyFz-6U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_0uO7odfYAhVFYt8KHds7DdM4ChDoAQg-MAY#v=onepage&q=great%20circle%20sailing%20advantages%20and%20disadvantages&f=false

You keep posting Al-Biruni.

Just one question...

What evidence do you have that Al-Biruni knew the shape of North and South America?

Answer = NONE.

He did not create the projection you trot out.

So kindly take AEP references to Al-Biruni, chop them up, stuff them in an olive, drop the olive into your next martini, then drink said martini as part of your normal early AM breakfast routine Geoff.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: planes
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2018, 11:40:56 AM »
You keep posting Al-Biruni.

Just one question...

What evidence do you have that Al-Biruni knew the shape of North and South America?
Answer = NONE.
He did not create the projection you trot out.
No-one claimed that he did, and neither did he know any details of Antarctica, which is also on the example in Wikipedia.
But the evidence indicates that he did create the Azimutal Equidistant Projection - meaning the type of projection.


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Offline rabinoz

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Re: planes
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2018, 11:43:43 AM »
Unless you can provide some documentary evidence of that, I am going to insist that it is totally fabricated rubbish!
If you look at what you said:
Quote from: totallackey
Any map presented to any explorer south of the Equator has errors to this day (becoming fewer and fewer) and that explorer will soon find themselves off-heading, sometimes up to several hours of travel time.
Unless you can provide some documentary evidence of that, I am going to insist that it is totally fabricated rubbish!
Yes, your claim was, "Any map presented to any explorer south of the Equator has errors to this day".

You have given one chart with possible errors of 200-300 m.
The video title claims that the GPS doesn't work, but the GPS did work and gave differences with the chart of 200-300 m.
Unless you show some independent evidence there is no way of knowing whether the error is in the GPS or the chart.

My guess is that the GPS was accurate and charts for South Georgia were not up to date.
Especially as the navigator says, "We have to round up this corner because the map is wrong. It's a little more like this."

So, you are complaining about a 200-300 m error in a remote location, when you don't even have an official flat earth map! What a joke!

In any case, it's a far cry from "Any map presented to any explorer south of the Equator has errors to this day" so you have not made a case especially when you go on to say "that explorer will soon find themselves off-heading, sometimes up to several hours of travel time".

So try again, better luck next time.