Offline FrankF

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Globe Earth works
« on: November 14, 2017, 12:00:04 PM »
Regardless of whether the earth is flat or a globe, the globular model works. NOTHING humans do on the assumption that the earth is a globe fails due to this assumption.

For the globular hypothesis to be discarded we'd need a superior model. FE doesn't seem to provide one - FE doesn't even have a map that makes sense of basic observations like travel times.

What is the point of telling us to discard a hypothesis that works beautifully when there's nothing to take its place?

Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 06:32:44 PM »
Don't call the Globe Earth a hypothesis. It's fact.
if the earth were round, people in australia would fall off

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 06:35:56 PM »
For the last ten years we have been asking for some form of evidence for this assumption that "the globe earth works," as you say, and so far no evidence has been provided showing that things are located and appear exactly where they are supposed to be.

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 07:24:38 PM »
For the last ten years we have been asking for some form of evidence for this assumption that "the globe earth works," as you say, and so far no evidence has been provided showing that things are located and appear exactly where they are supposed to be.

We have the empirical evidence that when we travel, we arrive at our destination in a reasonably accurate amount of time. Global travel and shipping would fail dramatically if our systems did not work. This is empirical evidence that you should wholeheartedly support. Are you able to show that things are not where they are supposed to be?
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 08:06:34 PM »
so far no evidence has been provided showing that things are located and appear exactly where they are supposed to be.

An open source computer program called Stellarium (http://stellarium.org/) provides pretty good evidence.  I observe the stars to be where Stellarium says they are supposed to be, time and time again.  Have I matched every single star up?  Of course not.  But I haven't found it to be wrong yet. Its obvious to me that Stellarium's model works.

So I imagine its one of two cases : The earth is a globe and Stellarium uses globe model mathematics, or its flat and the Stellarium programmers have figured out the mathematics to accurately predict star locations worldwide and have not shared the math with the FE community.

devils advocate

Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2017, 08:39:56 PM »
For the last ten years we have been asking for some form of evidence for this assumption that "the globe earth works," as you say, and so far no evidence has been provided showing that things are located and appear exactly where they are supposed to be.

Utter bollox. The evidence has been provided in droves, you just ignore it. Time and date accurately show sunrise/sunset without relying on "magic perspective". Flight times, GPS, Google maps are proved correct every day showing the RE map is factual, you can't even sketch a rough draft of a map.

Mountains of mutually supporting evidence give credence to astronomy, your answer is; "we don't know". You spout shit about UA, shadow objects, sun and moon size/paths with NO supporting evidence.

You rely on the known conman Rowbotham and other historic spurious nonsense. Who do you think you're kidding Tom?? Get a bigger spade for that hole you insist on digging for yourself.

Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2017, 09:56:13 PM »
For the last ten years we have been asking for some form of evidence for this assumption that "the globe earth works," as you say, and so far no evidence has been provided showing that things are located and appear exactly where they are supposed to be.
Please provide some examples of what you mean.   Things are where they are.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2017, 11:08:29 PM »
You guys need to wrap it up in a bow. Take your hypothesis and find the evidence for whatever it is you are asserting, not simply declare or assume that it exists.

Offline ghostopia

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Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2017, 12:01:08 AM »
Tom, from what I read in other debate, you said GPS and other means of calculating distance is based on Round Earth. What OP is trying to say is that these(GPS and others) work even though they are based on Round Earth model. So for FE'ers to assert that Earth is flat, they need to give superior model that works.

However, Flat Earth model does not even have a proper map! Also 3DGeek showed in other debate thread that Flat Earth map cannot exist, too. From our everyday experience, we know that Round Earth model work(ex-driving using navigation). You just cannot say Round Earth model is wrong and Flat Earth model is right without any actual model.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:10:09 AM by ghostopia »
Why believe in Flat Earth theory when there is so much evidence supporting Round Earth?

Flat Earth map cannot exist

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2017, 12:18:57 AM »
Tom, from what I read in discussions, you said GPS and other means of calculating distance is based on Round Earth. What OP is trying to say is that these(GPS and others) work even though they are based on Round Earth model.

A plane may use a GPS device to get to the destination, but there is no verification that the plane traveled exactly the distance listed. The coordinates take you to real places if you attempt to follow them. The distance between the coordinate points are computed based on a globe, however.

There is no real independent test of the distances, either, since planes do not have odometers. Airspeed measuring devices are measuring fluids moving within fluids and are not reliable or used in navigation. They are only used for determining the speed of air over the wing for when making banking maneuvers and such.

Quote
However, Flat Earth model does not even have a proper map!

How are we supposed to make a map when the distances planes fly are all based on a round earth coordinate system?

The problem with creating a map and model is that those listed distances found on the internet rely on a Round Earth coordinate system to compute a distance. No one has ever verified the accuracy of the distances computed from that coordinate system. No one has ever taken a tape measurer across the Atlantic to verify the spherical lat/lon distances, for example.

If we accept the round earth coordinate system as true, we might as well accept that the earth is round. The claim that GPS, or whatever Round Earth coordinate device, is true and accurate, is a positive claim brought to these discussions which must be demonstrated as accurate.

Quote
From our everyday experience, we know that Round Earth model work(ex-driving using navigation). You just cannot say Round Earth model is wrong and Flat Earth model is right without any actual model.

Simple navigation by setting a heading for a coordinate point is not enough. It is possible to travel the world with a Mercator map where Greenland is larger than Africa and Antarctica is larger than all of the continents combined. There needs to be verification of distances for the navigation to have meaning in regards to the form of the world.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:26:11 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline ghostopia

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Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2017, 01:27:17 AM »
A plane may use a GPS device to get to the destination, but there is no verification that the plane traveled exactly the distance listed. The coordinates take you to real places if you attempt to follow them. The distance between the coordinate points are computed based on a globe, however.

There is no real independent test of the distances, either, since planes do not have odometers. Airspeed measuring devices are measuring fluids moving within fluids and are not reliable or used in navigation. They are only used for determining the speed of air over the wing for when making banking maneuvers and such.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0

First, in this debate thread, people brought up that airplane speed is valid as many methods (GPS, radar, etc). This methods all show the same result. You might want exactly where radar arguement is from so there you go

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg124424#msg124424


Quote
How are we supposed to make a map when the distances planes fly are all based on a round earth coordinate system?

The problem with creating a map and model is that those listed distances found on the internet rely on a Round Earth coordinate system to compute a distance. No one has ever verified the accuracy of the distances computed from that coordinate system. No one has ever taken a tape measurer across the Atlantic to verify the spherical lat/lon distances, for example.

If we accept the round earth coordinate system as true, we might as well accept that the earth is round. The claim that GPS, or whatever Round Earth coordinate device, is true and accurate, is a positive claim brought to these discussions which must be demonstrated as accurate.

Well the distance can't be too off from what airline presents us because they are commercial companies which means they want to earn most money. If they fake distance and present shorter distance, it means that they are losing money from fuel cost.

If we look at sample unipolar map(I know you would argue that this is not a correct map I am not using it directly), we can see that southern hemisphere is stretched out... Tropic of Capricorn is significantly longer than Tropic of Cancer.

Quote
Simple navigation by setting a heading for a coordinate point is not enough. It is possible to travel the world with a Mercator map where Greenland is larger than Africa and Antarctica is larger than all of the continents combined. There needs to be verification of distances for the navigation to have meaning in regards to the form of the world.

But will you be able to reach a place in time you calculated using that map? Because that is what I am trying to argue.
Why believe in Flat Earth theory when there is so much evidence supporting Round Earth?

Flat Earth map cannot exist

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2017, 01:29:05 AM »
A plane may use a GPS device to get to the destination, but there is no verification that the plane traveled exactly the distance listed. The coordinates take you to real places if you attempt to follow them. The distance between the coordinate points are computed based on a globe, however.

While that may be partially true, the craft arrive at their destination on time. (*cough* when the airlines are on time*cough*) Airlines have to schedule their planes to be at a certain airport at a certain time. They have to know the approximate flight time. Physics dictate the speed planes can fly at. A 737 isn't going to be breaking the sound barrier and if it did, it would start to come apart. I can link you a video of an air crash investigation where a 737 did approach the speed of sound in a steep dive. Sadly, it did not end well for anyone involved.

The problem you have is that the times for southern hemisphere routes would be MASSIVELY out of line with expectations. Unless you can prove that they are, your hypothesis that the Earth is flat falls....flat....on it's face. Sorry, had to.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

devils advocate

Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2017, 06:11:58 AM »
Tom, from what I read in discussions, you said GPS and other means of calculating distance is based on Round Earth. What OP is trying to say is that these(GPS and others) work even though they are based on Round Earth model.

A plane may use a GPS device to get to the destination, but there is no verification that the plane traveled exactly the distance listed. The coordinates take you to real places if you attempt to follow them. The distance between the coordinate points are computed based on a globe, however.

There is no real independent test of the distances, either, since planes do not have odometers. Airspeed measuring devices are measuring fluids moving within fluids and are not reliable or used in navigation. They are only used for determining the speed of air over the wing for when making banking maneuvers and such.

Quote
However, Flat Earth model does not even have a proper map!

How are we supposed to make a map when the distances planes fly are all based on a round earth coordinate system?

The problem with creating a map and model is that those listed distances found on the internet rely on a Round Earth coordinate system to compute a distance. No one has ever verified the accuracy of the distances computed from that coordinate system. No one has ever taken a tape measurer across the Atlantic to verify the spherical lat/lon distances, for example.

If we accept the round earth coordinate system as true, we might as well accept that the earth is round. The claim that GPS, or whatever Round Earth coordinate device, is true and accurate, is a positive claim brought to these discussions which must be demonstrated as accurate.

Quote
From our everyday experience, we know that Round Earth model work(ex-driving using navigation). You just cannot say Round Earth model is wrong and Flat Earth model is right without any actual model.

Simple navigation by setting a heading for a coordinate point is not enough. It is possible to travel the world with a Mercator map where Greenland is larger than Africa and Antarctica is larger than all of the continents combined. There needs to be verification of distances for the navigation to have meaning in regards to the form of the world.

Wrong. Distance across oceans is measured accurately by submarine's who take sonar readings from the sea bed to clarify position. Cable laying companies know exactly how long their cables are before they lay them. Your desperate pleas for unnecessary proof demonstrate the complete lack of substance in your argument.

Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2017, 06:37:42 AM »
You can do math based on the round earth model, and get accurate sunrise and sunset predictions.

Every single location on the planet based on latitude and longitude works out right.

We have demonstrated this by the millions of people who have checked timeanddate.com and never gotten a wrong answer.

Find me one single person who has gotten the wrong answer from timeanddate.com.

Offline Roger G

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Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2017, 12:55:51 AM »
For the last ten years we have been asking for some form of evidence for this assumption that "the globe earth works," as you say, and so far no evidence has been provided showing that things are located and appear exactly where they are supposed to be.
Must be a boring day for Tom, with one wave of the hand he has dismissed all the mathematical and scientific evidence produced and demonstrated over hundreds of years for a round earth, and all the unassailable evidence placed on this forum by highly qualified people. I absolutely love the entertainment value that Tom provides and the huge smile he must have on his face watching the frustration of round earth explainers. As he drives off on a car journey following his GPS or flies off on holiday according to flight schedules, he knows as well as everyone else that the earth is round, but this forum is a great fun game  :D ;D

Of course there are two clear hypotheses to be explored, one is that the earth is flat and the other that it is a globe. To form a proper debate, both hypotheses need to have clear and unequivocal verifiable evidence. The REs provide this constantly however there is no verifiable evidence offered by the FEs except that it looks flat so it is flat, or the Bible says so. When questioned on this, the answer is always (usually by Tom) that there is no requirement to show evidence that the world is flat, only for those who don't believe it to offer empirical  evidence that it isn't. That of course is impossible as any photographs and video will be dismissed as faked, mathematics will be claimed to be working to different values on a flat earth, Space travel is impossible and access to the ice wall is guarded by the military.

It's a great game that can never be won because the rules are constantly changed, the goal posts moved and all evidence dismissed. Let it long keep us intellectually amused  :)

Let the game continue!

Roger

Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2017, 01:13:14 AM »
And Stellarium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellarium_(software) can give you those accurate sunrise and sunset predictions, and over 600,000 stars according to its Wiki.  It's a very popular stargazing software program.  Can we assume that it's model is accurate? It is accurate to my empirical observations. 

Southern stars and star trails produce huge problems for the FE theory, yet this piece of open source software has figured it out.  These programmers make the source code publicly available, they are not trying to hide anything.  The conspiracy would be blown if it actually had to use something other than globe earth math.

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Offline Tom Haws

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Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2017, 07:07:42 AM »
And Stellarium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellarium_(software) can give you those accurate sunrise and sunset predictions, and over 600,000 stars according to its Wiki.  It's a very popular stargazing software program.  Can we assume that it's model is accurate? It is accurate to my empirical observations. 

Southern stars and star trails produce huge problems for the FE theory, yet this piece of open source software has figured it out.  These programmers make the source code publicly available, they are not trying to hide anything.  The conspiracy would be blown if it actually had to use something other than globe earth math.

Given such obvious realities as this, I find myself wondering why it REALLY is that folks want to think the earth is other than it's plainly manifested and thoroughly mathematically modeled and daily lived to be.
Civil Engineer (professional mapper)

Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

Offline nxtman

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Re: Globe Earth works
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2017, 01:44:42 PM »
so far no evidence has been provided showing that things are located and appear exactly where they are supposed to be.

An open source computer program called Stellarium (http://stellarium.org/) provides pretty good evidence.  I observe the stars to be where Stellarium says they are supposed to be, time and time again.  Have I matched every single star up?  Of course not.  But I haven't found it to be wrong yet. Its obvious to me that Stellarium's model works.

So I imagine its one of two cases : The earth is a globe and Stellarium uses globe model mathematics, or its flat and the Stellarium programmers have figured out the mathematics to accurately predict star locations worldwide and have not shared the math with the FE community.

I mean, considering the software is open source, someone would have found flat earth math in the software by now. Someone would just need expertise in programming as well as globular mathematics to determine that something isn't right with the code.