*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10170
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2022, 11:30:12 PM »
Actually, no, no one mentioned it in the sources you provided, and you had to present content from a different website which wasn't linked at all.

It was stated that anyone could do for their own selves. Did they program their own moonbounce software?

One of the links from the site about the software you got your last cited text from has indications that custom software is being provided to amateurs for contests and events:

« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 12:12:12 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10170
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2022, 12:28:40 AM »
It doesn't sound like amateurs are behind this moonbounce software to me:

http://www.setileague.org/press/pres0401.htm



Screenshot of his moonbounce software:

https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/wsjt.html


*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2022, 12:32:05 AM »
Actually, no, no one mentioned it in the sources you provided, and you had to present content from a different website which wasn't linked at all.

It was stated that anyone could do for their own selves. Did they program their own moonbounce software?

From the info for the Video on YT under "Some technical information....":

"QRA64D, one of the WSJT-X modes specifically for EME"

From the WSJT-X 2.1 User Guide
Joseph H Taylor, Jr, K1JT
Version 2.1.0

DT, the signal’s time offset in seconds relative to your computer clock.



Looks like this from the video:



"Propagation time to the Moon and back ranges from 2.4 to 2.7 seconds, with an average of 2.56 seconds (the average distance from Earth to the Moon is 384,400 km)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication

Wildly coincidental that the record holders in the video had a 2.6 DT and the average propagation time is 2.56 seconds. Pretty much spot-on, wouldn't you say?


One of the links from the site you got your last cited text from has indications that custom software is being provided to amateurs for contests and events:



Nope, not contest specific. WSJT is just software written by a former Princeton physicist that lots of HAM radio aficionados use for weak-signal radio communication between amateur radio operators.

Joseph Hooton Taylor Jr. (born March 29, 1941) is an American astrophysicist and Nobel Prize laureate in Physics[1] for his discovery with Russell Alan Hulse of a "new type of pulsar, a discovery that has opened up new possibilities for the study of gravitation."
He is actively developing several computer programs and communications protocols, including WSJT ("Weak Signal/Joe Taylor"), a software package and protocol suite that utilizes computer-generated messages in conjunction with radio transceivers to communicate over long distances with other amateur radio operators.

WSJT is useful for passing short messages via non-traditional radio communications methods, such as moonbounce and meteor scatter and other low signal-to-noise ratio paths. It is also useful for extremely long-distance contacts using very low power transmissions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Hooton_Taylor_Jr.#Career

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10170
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2022, 12:41:08 AM »
From your last link:





https://public.nrao.edu/event/virtual-vla-tour-partnerships-with-nasa/

Quote


NRAO operates some of the most scientifically productive telescopes on Earth, but did you know that we occasionally partner with NASA to better understand our Solar System? The Very Large Array (VLA) has provided vital instrumentation from receiving the radio signal from NASA’s Voyager 2 spacecraft as it performed its Neptune flyby in 1989 to radar mapping the surface of Mercury in 1991 by detecting the reflected radio signal sent from NASA’s Goldstone antenna, a part of the Deep Space Network (DSN).

Yeah, he's not an amateur. This isn't amateur-derived software.

It says to do the EME with his software you have to install the software and use one of the supported and specially designed "modes" -

https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/wsjtx.html

Quote
WSJT-X implements communication protocols or "modes" called FST4, FST4W, FT4, FT8, JT4, JT9, JT65, Q65, MSK144, and WSPR, as well as one called Echo for detecting and measuring your own radio signals reflected from the Moon.  These modes were designed for making reliable, confirmed QSOs under extreme weak-signal conditions.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 01:01:05 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2022, 12:55:43 AM »
From your last link:





https://public.nrao.edu/event/virtual-vla-tour-partnerships-with-nasa/

Quote


NRAO operates some of the most scientifically productive telescopes on Earth, but did you know that we occasionally partner with NASA to better understand our Solar System? The Very Large Array (VLA) has provided vital instrumentation from receiving the radio signal from NASA’s Voyager 2 spacecraft as it performed its Neptune flyby in 1989 to radar mapping the surface of Mercury in 1991 by detecting the reflected radio signal sent from NASA’s Goldstone antenna, a part of the Deep Space Network (DSN).

Yeah, he's not an amateur. This isn't amateur-derived software.

It says to do the EME with his software you have to install the software and use one of the supported and specially designed "modes" -

https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/wsjtx.html

Quote
WSJT-X implements communication protocols or "modes" called FST4, FST4W, FT4, FT8, JT4, JT9, JT65, Q65, MSK144, and WSPR, as well as one called Echo for detecting and measuring your own radio signals reflected from the Moon.  These modes were designed for making reliable, confirmed QSOs under extreme weak-signal conditions.

I'm not following your logic. Do amateurs build any of the equipment they use? I'm an amateur photographer. If I use software like photoshop, designed and coded by experts/professionals, to crop an image, am I now a "professional"?

How about actually addressing the crux of the matter:

Actually, no, no one mentioned it in the sources you provided, and you had to present content from a different website which wasn't linked at all.

It was stated that anyone could do for their own selves. Did they program their own moonbounce software?

From the info for the Video on YT under "Some technical information....":

"QRA64D, one of the WSJT-X modes specifically for EME"

From the WSJT-X 2.1 User Guide
Joseph H Taylor, Jr, K1JT
Version 2.1.0

DT, the signal’s time offset in seconds relative to your computer clock.



Looks like this from the video:



"Propagation time to the Moon and back ranges from 2.4 to 2.7 seconds, with an average of 2.56 seconds (the average distance from Earth to the Moon is 384,400 km)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication

Wildly coincidental that the record holders in the video had a 2.6 DT and the average propagation time is 2.56 seconds. Pretty much spot-on, wouldn't you say?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10170
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2022, 01:08:35 AM »
NRAO is a government funded organization which tracks NASA spaceships and was started around the same time as NASA.

You want to use a piece of software from someone who worked with the NRAO to prove something about the Moon.

No surprise that you can't see the fallacy there. ::)

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2022, 03:09:47 AM »
NRAO is a government funded organization which tracks NASA spaceships and was started around the same time as NASA.

You want to use a piece of software from someone who worked with the NRAO to prove something about the Moon.

No surprise that you can't see the fallacy there. ::)

- 1969-1980: Following his Ph.D., he worked at Harvard University for some time in the capacity of a researcher. In 1969, he joined the University of Massachusetts and during his 12 year stint there, he became Professor of Astronomy and Associate Director Five College Radio Astronomy Observatory.
- 1980:"He moved to Princeton University, where he was the James S. McDonnell Distinguished University Professor in Physics, having also served for six years as Dean of Faculty. He retired in 2006."
- 1993: He co-won The Nobel Prize in Physics
- 2001: "He is actively developing several computer programs and communications protocols, including WSJT ("Weak Signal/Joe Taylor"), a software package and protocol suite that utilizes computer-generated messages in conjunction with radio transceivers to communicate over long distances with other amateur radio operators."

I don't know what NRAO or NASA has to do with anything.  Even your source says, "occasionally partner with NASA". Which I don't personally see a problem with, but I'm sure you do. In any case, why don't you show us where Dr. Taylor worked with NASA.

And more in any case, you're still not addressing why the world record holder EME moonbounce guys got a time delay of 2.6 seconds, right near the expected and documented propagation average of 2.56 seconds.

Your argument is:

- That amateurs can't use software made by professionals and if they do, they are no longer amateurs?
- That the professional who wrote the software decades after using some equipment from a science agency that "occasionally" partnered with NASA, though a Nobel Prize winning physicist and lifetime Professor at the likes of Princeton, wrote the software and makes it so it's a fake time delay for any user to fake the actual distance to to the Moon?

That seems logical to you?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10170
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2022, 03:23:03 AM »
Quote
In any case, why don't you show us where Dr. Taylor worked with NASA.

References aren't too hard to find. Here is Joseph Hooden Taylor listed on this NASA profile page under "Associates and Members"

https://history.aip.org/phn/21612004.html



...



...



Then on his profile page:

https://history.aip.org/phn/11610005.html





Quote from: stack
That seems logical to you?

It seems logical that you do what your corrupt government tells you to do, or implement the programming package or library of whatever organization they tell you to implement, Nobel Prize or not.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 03:41:08 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2022, 04:06:43 AM »
Quote
In any case, why don't you show us where Dr. Taylor worked with NASA.

References aren't too hard to find. Here is Joseph Hooden Taylor listed on this NASA profile page under "Associates and Members"

https://history.aip.org/phn/21612004.html



...



...



Then on his profile page:

https://history.aip.org/phn/11610005.html





Quote from: stack
That seems logical to you?

It seems logical that you do what your corrupt government tells you to do, or implement the programming package or library of whatever organization they tell you to implement, Nobel Prize or not.

It seems you need to provide some evidence that your corrupt government implemented a software program in 2001 via Dr Taylor that fakes the time delay HAM radio amateurs capture when performing an EME moon bounce. What's your evidence?

In the absence of the required evidence, the world record moon bounce video clearly shows the 2.6 second EME time delay which matches the average EME propagation of 2.56 seconds.

Offline rpt

  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2022, 08:55:10 AM »
WSJT is open source software. You can inspect the source to find the government's faked timings.

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
Re: Moonbounce propagation time and the distance of the Moon from Earth
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2022, 07:10:45 PM »
Good point. Here's a link to the code:

WSTJX Source Code