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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: PraiseGOD on August 26, 2022, 09:49:07 AM

Title: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: PraiseGOD on August 26, 2022, 09:49:07 AM
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise, also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (James 2:14-26)

So, in the above verses we see James is stating that works is the evidence of faith and that faith without works is dead. James also emphasises that “Even the devils believe, and tremble” which describes how a mere mental “belief” is not the same as a saving faith.

In this day and age a very prevalent doctrine that is spreading throughout the new-age churches and in online forums, is: “Since we are saved by faith in Christ alone, as stated in the famous John chapter 3, verse 16 and Ephesians chapter 2, verse 8 to 9; we are not required to come to genuine repentance of our sins, nor are we required to keep the commandments of God”. I would like to stress that this is a doctrine of devils being parroted by individuals who are not of genuine faith, and/or have a limited knowledge of scripture or that through the love of sin have deceived themselves and are now deceiving others.

James makes it clear: “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” So, in these verses James is questioning whether the so called “faith” that some of these individuals believing and purporting these doctrines have, is genuine. James's criticism is specifically aimed at a belief in God which does not result in a changed life and that, a faith which saves, by its very nature, is something which produces good works.

We are to be disciples of Jesus Christ. We are to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and make him the centre of our lives. We are to be walking by every word that comes from the mouth of God. We are to vehemently seek God’s Word and Will. We are to fear God and keep His commandments, repenting of our sins. We are to be baptised with the laying of hands to receive the Holy Spirit. We are to love God with all our heart, with all our soul and with all our mind. We are to love others as we love ourselves. We are to give willingly, cheerfully, and freely. We are to be ready to forsake everything that we have, including our very family, for the sake of God.

However, this is not to be confused, as later verses will show, works are the evidence of salvation; not the source of it. The above “fruits” of good works that I have just described are the natural by-product of a saving faith.

So, in summary: If you find yourself or anybody else who is supposedly Christian, with a purported faith in Christ, which has not undergone a changed life and is not producing the “fruit” of good works, I would be wary and draw into question the genuineness of this person’s faith.

Thank you for reading. I love you all and may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: xasop on August 26, 2022, 10:24:57 AM
“[incomprehensible gibberish]” (James 2:14-26)
Or, for those of you who speak English:

"My brothers and sisters, what good is it for people to say that they have faith if their actions do not prove it? Can that faith save them? Suppose there are brothers or sisters who need clothes and don't have enough to eat. What good is there in your saying to them, “God bless you! Keep warm and eat well!” — if you don't give them the necessities of life? So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead.

"But someone will say, “One person has faith, another has actions.” My answer is, “Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions.” Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe — and tremble with fear. You fool! Do you want to be shown that faith without actions is useless? How was our ancestor Abraham put right with God? It was through his actions, when he offered his son Isaac on the altar. Can't you see? His faith and his actions worked together; his faith was made perfect through his actions.

"And the scripture came true that said, “Abraham believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous.” And so Abraham was called God's friend. You see, then, that it is by people's actions that they are put right with God, and not by their faith alone.

"It was the same with the prostitute Rahab. She was put right with God through her actions, by welcoming the Israelite spies and helping them to escape by a different road.

"So then, as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without actions is dead."
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on August 26, 2022, 12:44:08 PM
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, but is really a hateful, judgmental hypocrite spreading a message of anger and subjugation.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: J-Man on August 27, 2022, 03:36:36 PM
KISS

Judge and ye not be judged.

Our salvation is 100% by Gods GRACE !!! Faith in Christ you will receive the SPIRIT....End of story !  Eternal Life !

We're all sinners and will continue to sin, saved or not. The HOLY Spirit will direct our lives and see we repent and do works. If you don't have the SPIRIT maybe you really didn't have FAITH and thought you could pull one over on GOD?...

Ye of little FAITH !
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Rama Set on August 27, 2022, 03:40:03 PM
Judge not lest ye be judged.

Fix’d
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: J-Man on August 27, 2022, 04:41:43 PM
Everyone who ever lived will be Judged, there is no escape from that day so...We all sin and Judge but ah just accept Grace and acknowledge Christs sacrifice for all mankind.

Yes as you stand or knell before God as he recounts every second of your life, you will feel ashamed for your thoughts and acts but his word is truth. You will make the grade and enter the kingdom.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: crutonius on August 27, 2022, 06:15:12 PM
Exactly.  This is what I keep trying to tell people.  This whole "trying to be Christ-like" shit is completely pointless because as the good book says even our original inherited sin taints us enough to damn us to hell.  Don't try to think about right and wrong.  Just having a distant ancestor that ate a forbidden apple is, in God's eyes, the moral equivalent of being Hitler.  Basically just accept Jesus and don't sweat it if you're a human trafficker or something. 

But there's a twist to all this.  Christianity 2.0, aka Mormonism, introduces us to an exciting new feature, posthumous baptism. 

So here's my best advice to stay out of Hell and I believe it is far safer than J-man's advice.  Since only one baptism counts you must reject Christianity and rely on a posthumous baptism to save your soul.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: AATW on August 27, 2022, 07:00:00 PM
Yes as you stand or knell before God
What if you don’t have a bell with you.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Rushy on August 28, 2022, 02:29:35 AM
Exactly.  This is what I keep trying to tell people.  This whole "trying to be Christ-like" shit is completely pointless because as the good book says even our original inherited sin taints us enough to damn us to hell.  Don't try to think about right and wrong.  Just having a distant ancestor that ate a forbidden apple is, in God's eyes, the moral equivalent of being Hitler.  Basically just accept Jesus and don't sweat it if you're a human trafficker or something. 

The idea would be that a human trafficker likely doesn't genuinely have Christian faith and therefore their false faith would damn them regardless. To be a faithful Christian would be to, at least some extent, attempt to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. It obviously leaves that a bit vague, but the hot meme of saying "lmao like I just kill 100 people then repent so I go to heaven, haha!" will typically not work as the kind of person who would do such things is unlikely to repent in a genuine way.

Also, it makes sense that a perfect being would see practically all imperfect beings as incomprehensibly evil. Part of the purpose of Christianity is an acceptance that all humans are fundamentally flawed beings and how to cope with that. Everyone chooses to do 'immoral' things at one point or another in their life.
Title: Just like the days of Noah and Lot were,..
Post by: PraiseGOD on August 30, 2022, 01:06:23 PM
Just like the days of Noah and Lot were, so will be the days before the coming of the Lord

Is anyone else noticing the quickening pace in which society is descending into full blown depravity? Lies and deceit have become the common language. Abominable things are celebrated. All the commandments of the Lord have been abolished and forsaken. Murder is occurring on mass scale. Prideful sodomites, secret societies, occultists and satanists are now openly parading themselves with very little opposition. The rich are getting exponentially richer whilst a rapidly increasing number of poor (150 million+) people are living in crisis levels of famine.

This exact scenario played out in the days of Noah and Lot. “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (Luke 17:26)

God’s wrath and judgement will be coming upon the wicked, likely in the same way that they intend to do to us. Just like a thief in the night will be the coming of the Lord with all power and glory. So, keep watching friends, brothers, and sisters, for we know not when our Lord shall come, that we may not be taken by surprise.

May the grace of God and our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
Title: Re: Just like the days of Noah and Lot were,..
Post by: Rushy on August 30, 2022, 01:56:40 PM
Just like the days of Noah and Lot were, so will be the days before the coming of the Lord

Is anyone else noticing the quickening pace in which society is descending into full blown depravity? Lies and deceit have become the common language. Abominable things are celebrated. All the commandments of the Lord have been abolished and forsaken. Murder is occurring on mass scale. Prideful sodomites, secret societies, occultists and satanists are now openly parading themselves with very little opposition. The rich are getting exponentially richer whilst a rapidly increasing number of poor (150 million+) people are living in crisis levels of famine.

This exact scenario played out in the days of Noah and Lot. “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (Luke 17:26)

God’s wrath and judgement will be coming upon the wicked, likely in the same way that they intend to do to us. Just like a thief in the night will be the coming of the Lord with all power and glory. So, keep watching friends, brothers, and sisters, for we know not when our Lord shall come, that we may not be taken by surprise.

May the grace of God and our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.



I'm merging this thread with the other one. If you want to post/discuss verses, please do so within a single thread rather than posting a new thread for every verse discussion.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 30, 2022, 03:01:20 PM
I will not bow before a being simply because it demands me to do so.
Nor will I respect anyone who judges a person not by their deeds, but by how much they suck up to the judge.

I will live a good life and join the devil in rebelling against an arrogant and evil creator.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: J-Man on August 30, 2022, 03:33:44 PM
I will not bow before a being simply because it demands me to do so.
Nor will I respect anyone who judges a person not by their deeds, but by how much they suck up to the judge.

I will live a good life and join the devil in rebelling against an arrogant and evil creator.

You are confirmation of Gods word, the gates are narrow. You see God knows whos name is written in the book thus he can tell us the gates are narrow.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 30, 2022, 03:37:47 PM
I will not bow before a being simply because it demands me to do so.
Nor will I respect anyone who judges a person not by their deeds, but by how much they suck up to the judge.

I will live a good life and join the devil in rebelling against an arrogant and evil creator.

You are confirmation of Gods word, the gates are narrow. You see God knows whos name is written in the book thus he can tell us the gates are narrow.

You know, God is a sheppard and his followers, his sheep.  And what do we do to sheep?  We eat them.
Have you considered that God eats souls?  That we're just domesticated animals to him?
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: crutonius on August 30, 2022, 03:47:46 PM
I will not bow before a being simply because it demands me to do so.
Nor will I respect anyone who judges a person not by their deeds, but by how much they suck up to the judge.

I will live a good life and join the devil in rebelling against an arrogant and evil creator.

How dare you not bow down to our all loving God!

He shall most likely murder you in a freak can opener accident and torture you forever for not believing in Him!

Why can't you sinners just open yourself up to the mercy and love of God?
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 30, 2022, 05:01:58 PM
I will not bow before a being simply because it demands me to do so.
Nor will I respect anyone who judges a person not by their deeds, but by how much they suck up to the judge.

I will live a good life and join the devil in rebelling against an arrogant and evil creator.

How dare you not bow down to our all loving God!

He shall most likely murder you in a freak can opener accident and torture you forever for not believing in Him!

Why can't you sinners just open yourself up to the mercy and love of God?

Because he made me without an easy to open lid. :(
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: xasop on August 30, 2022, 05:26:21 PM
As I've said before, I think that if there is a God, he would want us to use our free will and ability to think critically in interpreting the Bible. Accepting that the Bible just means what someone else tells you it means defeats the whole point of giving us free will and providing us with a holy book to read. Faith, then, is not the goal, but rather personal development and independent thought.

Anyone who tells you you are going to Hell for your interpretation of the Bible is not speaking on behalf of God.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: ohplease on August 30, 2022, 08:27:45 PM
As I've said before, I think that if there is a God, he would want us to use our free will and ability to think critically in interpreting the Bible. Accepting that the Bible just means what someone else tells you it means defeats the whole point of giving us free will and providing us with a holy book to read. Faith, then, is not the goal, but rather personal development and independent thought.

Anyone who tells you you are going to Hell for your interpretation of the Bible is not speaking on behalf of God.
All the data humans have collected shows no evidence of miracles or gods or devils or angels, etc.  Reasoning about the nature of reality (to my thinking at least) says that the "supernatural" is a meaningless term much like the center of an infinite plane.  If the universe, even if its a multi-verse, is everything than everything is natural.   If that reasoning is false then claiming its just wrong enough for the Christian God to exist but everything else is still legitimate seems no more or less likely than tea leaves being a good predictor of the future.  Humans invented gods to sooth the itch of not knowing things.  But the truth is that there is a lot we do not know, may never know, and perhaps even more that we have no contact with to even be aware that we don't know it.
Everyone wants to be treated well by others and the best chance we have for that is to treat everyone well.  Besides it feels good.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: xasop on August 30, 2022, 08:29:47 PM
All the data humans have collected shows no evidence of miracles or gods or devils or angels, etc.
That is patently false, but par for the course for your brand of "science".
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 30, 2022, 08:33:10 PM
If the universe, even if its a multi-verse, is everything than everything is natural.
It is a good idea to understand the words you use before you use them.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/natural
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: ohplease on August 30, 2022, 09:27:26 PM
All the data humans have collected shows no evidence of miracles or gods or devils or angels, etc.
That is patently false, but par for the course for your brand of "science".
You can make the case for that if you like, I doubt you will do so (you could start by pointing to a single peer reviewed science paper that claims such evidence) and my "brand" of science is science as practiced by you know actual scientists. 
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 30, 2022, 09:30:20 PM
You can make the case for that if you like, I doubt you will do so and my "brand" of science is science as practiced by you know actual scientists.
To support your claim, please name 3 scientists who follow the approach of "just state any old shit and claim that 'all the data shows it' without providing any evidence".
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: ohplease on August 30, 2022, 09:32:24 PM
You can make the case for that if you like, I doubt you will do so and my "brand" of science is science as practiced by you know actual scientists.
To support your claim, please name 3 scientists who follow the approach of "just state any old shit and claim that 'all the data shows it' without providing any evidence".
I will just ignore your trolling from now on.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 30, 2022, 09:37:26 PM
Since I have not done that why would I bother?
Well, you did claim that your brand of "science" is "science as practiced by you know actual scientists". I'm glad you now realise that was incorrect. I guesss this is a special case of you using words without knowing what they mean.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: xasop on August 30, 2022, 09:41:29 PM
You can make the case for that if you like
It is neither relevant to the discussion at hand, despite you doing your utmost to derail the thread with your pseudo-intellectual ramblings, nor necessary, since you have provided zero justification for your own claim.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: ohplease on August 30, 2022, 10:26:27 PM
Lets just review.
All the data humans have collected shows no evidence of miracles or gods or devils or angels, etc.
That is patently false, but par for the course for your brand of "science".
I stated (and still do) that no data collected (note this is not tales of hearsay but actual collected data) shows evidence of gods or devils etc.  You say that is "patently false" so it should be trivial for you to prove me wrong by just providing a link to such evidence and analysis.  But instead you insist that I prove a negative. 

Clearly I made a mistake in thinking your post was serious.  Apologies to the rest of the board.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: xasop on August 31, 2022, 08:46:05 AM
I stated (and still do) that no data collected (note this is not tales of hearsay but actual collected data)
Ah, so now you are cherry-picking which evidence qualifies as "evidence" to you. Once again, this is not how science works, nor is it what you initially claimed.

But instead you insist that I prove a negative.
I am simply suggesting that you should be able to back up claims you make, but thank you for admitting that your claim is indefensible.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Rushy on August 31, 2022, 01:32:29 PM
While fascinating to watch two university STEM memesters debate a high school student on what constitutes "science", it seems like it's a waste of time on everyone's count. If you're going to fill a thread up with this sort of stuff, could you guys at least do it in Complete Nonsense where discussions like these belong? Trying to perform the job of this lad's primary school science teacher is not conducive to discussion and I prefer not to view what will probably end up being several pages of:

1. <nonsensical claim>
2. "That's nonsense"
3. "Oh yeah? Prove it!"
4. "No, you prove it!"
5. "No! YOU prove it!"

Repeat steps 4 to 5 for the next week.


Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Pondering Charles on August 31, 2022, 02:44:03 PM
It's honestly very obvious that the ball earth is an intentional deception from satan to bring people away from God and the Bible. and it's obvious that the big bang model is ridiculous, so is the idea that im sitting on an earth being constantly hit by 1000 MPH wind.....oh, but ballers say we are spinning "with it"...then it wouldnt be wind at all, because there would be no relative movement!
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: ohplease on August 31, 2022, 04:47:10 PM
I stated (and still do) that no data collected (note this is not tales of hearsay but actual collected data)
Ah, so now you are cherry-picking which evidence qualifies as "evidence" to you. Once again, this is not how science works, nor is it what you initially claimed.
No I am not. I thought "data collected" made it clear I am talking about scientific data, not tales of tales etc.  Your statement makes it clear you DID take it that way (or else why would now science works be relevant?).   If you claim there IS such data (and then I'd expect to be numerous scientific papers about it) please point them out.  If its so "patently false" that no such data exists, why not just do me the favor or indulge me and point out this amazing data.  I'd really love to see it.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: xasop on August 31, 2022, 04:54:07 PM
I thought "data collected" made it clear I am talking about scientific data, not tales of tales etc.
You are the only one who seems to think that eyewitness accounts do not constitute scientific data.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Pondering Charles on August 31, 2022, 04:57:06 PM
I thought "data collected" made it clear I am talking about scientific data, not tales of tales etc.
You are the only one who seems to think that eyewitness accounts do not constitute scientific data.

Does it ever occur to you that Satan maybe planting false data to misled you?
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: ohplease on August 31, 2022, 05:17:52 PM
I thought "data collected" made it clear I am talking about scientific data, not tales of tales etc.
You are the only one who seems to think that eyewitness accounts do not constitute scientific data.
It can, it all depends.  As made famous by Carl Sagan "“extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” and you still have not provided any evidence, extraordinary or otherwise.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: BillO on August 31, 2022, 05:21:19 PM
You are the only one who seems to think that eyewitness accounts do not constitute scientific data.

"Eyewitness" accounts cover quite a spectrum.  Some would certainly be considered scientific data (doing an experiment and making careful observations repeated many times and averaged over time) and others not really (I saw it for about 1/4 of a second out of the very corner of my eye.  I was more concentrated on driving, but I'm sure of what it was) and still others that are just utter junk (she swears her friend's uncle's story about being told by an old guy he met fishing that he actually saw the sasquatch picking it's nose, can be taken to the bunk, er .. bank).

That last category covers the "eyewitness accounts" we find in the Bible.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: xasop on August 31, 2022, 05:44:41 PM
It can, it all depends.  As made famous by Carl Sagan "“extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” and you still have not provided any evidence, extraordinary or otherwise.
I do hope not, if I'd provided any evidence that would have been an enormous failure on my part.
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: Pondering Charles on August 31, 2022, 08:12:00 PM
god doesnt exist, satan doesnt exist, there is no heaven
Title: Re: We are saved by faith alone, and the evidence of faith is works.
Post by: PraiseGOD on September 02, 2022, 12:34:42 PM
KISS

Judge and ye not be judged.

Our salvation is 100% by Gods GRACE !!! Faith in Christ you will receive the SPIRIT....End of story !  Eternal Life !

We're all sinners and will continue to sin, saved or not. The HOLY Spirit will direct our lives and see we repent and do works. If you don't have the SPIRIT maybe you really didn't have FAITH and thought you could pull one over on GOD?...

Ye of little FAITH !

“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”

Twist not scripture, lest you be like Satan.



24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
(John 7:24)

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
(1 Corinthians 6:1-6)