[TomInAustin]

You should put that on your home page 

The point is that no one is here to research for you. We are not funded or organized for that.

No one is demanding that you do any specific research. I have suggested some things you could do, others have too.
If you don't follow up on any of those then so be it but it's hard to take seriously someone writing a chapter on "the importance of Empiricism" who seems to refuse to do any empirical measurements at all.

We have free, global communications these days. All you'd need to do is get some people to take some observations and measurements of the sun in different places, if the sun is circling (it isn't) a flat plane (it isn't) then that would start to give you some idea of where places are.

Its you and the entire world across all platforms, websites, and media sources demanding experiments of every type. It's just not going to happen unless you make it happen. I'm just here for a little while every day as an act of service and education.

Its already been done Tom, the globe has been mapped for many years and continues to be made more accurate.  You need to just admit it's not possible to come up with a flat map that accounts for know travel times and distances. 

[Tom Bishop]

I've dealt with this in this thread, which you ignored.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=8672.msg140039;topicseen#msg140039

One key thing to note from my post in that thread is how you use perspective here (wrongly) to explain sunset but ignore it when reinterpreting the stick experiment to show a close sun.

You can't have it both ways.

I've suggested a simple experiment you could do in your home which would cost approximately 0$ - so all of your annual budget, but I'm sure you'll agree that it will be worth it - to verify what I've said about shadows. You ignored that too. I've also suggested an experiment you could do to verify the distance to the sun and you've ignored that too. This is a key part of your theory, if the sun is distant then it would show your interpretation of the stick experiment wrong, it's strange then that you refuse to do any empirical experiments to test that.

Your rebuttal seems to be "how does the sun setting to perspective explain long shadows at sunset". The answer to this query is that the horizon is at 90 degrees from zenith, parallel to the observer. If perspective puts the sun at the horizon, then the photons are illuminating the observer and sticks from 90 degrees, and will therefore create long shadows.

Its already been done Tom, the globe has been mapped for many years and continues to be made more accurate.  You need to just admit it's not possible to come up with a flat map that accounts for know travel times and distances.

You need to show that all distances are accurate, not just tell us.

When we looked at the transatlantic cable journal logs, they admitted that the laid cable was over 15% longer than expected by spherical coordinates.

Once many world wide distances are verified, it will be possible to start creating a map and model. Nothing can be done until we have all information.

[StinkyOne]

I've dealt with this in this thread, which you ignored.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=8672.msg140039;topicseen#msg140039

One key thing to note from my post in that thread is how you use perspective here (wrongly) to explain sunset but ignore it when reinterpreting the stick experiment to show a close sun.

You can't have it both ways.

I've suggested a simple experiment you could do in your home which would cost approximately 0$ - so all of your annual budget, but I'm sure you'll agree that it will be worth it - to verify what I've said about shadows. You ignored that too. I've also suggested an experiment you could do to verify the distance to the sun and you've ignored that too. This is a key part of your theory, if the sun is distant then it would show your interpretation of the stick experiment wrong, it's strange then that you refuse to do any empirical experiments to test that.

Your rebuttal seems to be "how does the sun setting to perspective explain long shadows at sunset". The answer to this query is that the horizon is at 90 degrees from zenith, parallel to the observer. If perspective puts the sun at the horizon, then the photons are illuminating the observer and sticks from 90 degrees, and will therefore create long shadows.

Its already been done Tom, the globe has been mapped for many years and continues to be made more accurate.  You need to just admit it's not possible to come up with a flat map that accounts for know travel times and distances.

You need to show that all distances are accurate, not just tell us.

When we looked at the transatlantic cable journal logs, they admitted that the laid cable was over 15% longer than expected by spherical coordinates.

Once many world wide distances are verified, it will be possible to start creating a map and model. Nothing can be done until we have all information.

Tom, this is just a leisure activity for us. We don't have the funding to get the data you want.

15% over? Man, it's almost like the ocean floor isn't completely flat. 

[Frocious]

You need to show that all distances are accurate, not just tell us.

When we looked at the transatlantic cable journal logs, they admitted that the laid cable was over 15% longer than expected by spherical coordinates.

Once many world wide distances are verified, it will be possible to start creating a map and model. Nothing can be done until we have all information.

You keep saying this, but it was clear that you misinterpreted the excerpts provided.

[AATW]

If perspective puts the sun at the horizon, then the photons are illuminating the observer and sticks from 90 degrees, and will therefore create long shadows.

Cool. Can you show a diagram indicating how photons can travel in a straight line from a sun 3000 miles above the plane of the earth and arrive at my eye horizontally so the sun appears on the horizon and casts long shadows.
Thanks.

[TomInAustin]

You need to show that all distances are accurate, not just tell us.

When we looked at the transatlantic cable journal logs, they admitted that the laid cable was over 15% longer than expected by spherical coordinates.

Once many world wide distances are verified, it will be possible to start creating a map and model. Nothing can be done until we have all information.

I don't have to show anything beyond the commonly known data.  I know that when I get on  Boeing  787 leaving Austin direct to London and magically the plane arrives within a few minutes of scheduled time.

We have all heard your silly nonsense about distances, airlines not knowing how fast a plane is, how much fuel it needs, how long to get somewhere.  Stop being ridiculous and try to have an adult debate. 

[Tom Bishop]

If perspective puts the sun at the horizon, then the photons are illuminating the observer and sticks from 90 degrees, and will therefore create long shadows.

Cool. Can you show a diagram indicating how photons can travel in a straight line from a sun 3000 miles above the plane of the earth and arrive at my eye horizontally so the sun appears on the horizon and casts long shadows.
Thanks.

There are diagrams of the sun intersecting with the horizon in the p-brane video.

[Tontogary]

I've dealt with this in this thread, which you ignored.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=8672.msg140039;topicseen#msg140039

One key thing to note from my post in that thread is how you use perspective here (wrongly) to explain sunset but ignore it when reinterpreting the stick experiment to show a close sun.

You can't have it both ways.

I've suggested a simple experiment you could do in your home which would cost approximately 0$ - so all of your annual budget, but I'm sure you'll agree that it will be worth it - to verify what I've said about shadows. You ignored that too. I've also suggested an experiment you could do to verify the distance to the sun and you've ignored that too. This is a key part of your theory, if the sun is distant then it would show your interpretation of the stick experiment wrong, it's strange then that you refuse to do any empirical experiments to test that.

Your rebuttal seems to be "how does the sun setting to perspective explain long shadows at sunset". The answer to this query is that the horizon is at 90 degrees from zenith, parallel to the observer. If perspective puts the sun at the horizon, then the photons are illuminating the observer and sticks from 90 degrees, and will therefore create long shadows.

Its already been done Tom, the globe has been mapped for many years and continues to be made more accurate.  You need to just admit it's not possible to come up with a flat map that accounts for know travel times and distances.

You need to show that all distances are accurate, not just tell us.

When we looked at the transatlantic cable journal logs, they admitted that the laid cable was over 15% longer than expected by spherical coordinates.

Once many world wide distances are verified, it will be possible to start creating a map and model. Nothing can be done until we have all information.

Have you seen a chart of the ocean floor?
It is made up of valleys and mountains flat areas, and a whole lot of other features.
Do you really think the ocean is a few metres deep across the whole expanse, flat as a pancake and uniform?

I can tell you with certainty that the distance from Lands End (Bishop Rock) UK to New York is 2,933 miles, across the surface of the water. I know, I have made this voyage, at a certain speed, and guess what? It took me the calculated estimated time to arrive there. I know how fast i was travelling, because we have machines that tell us, they are called speed logs, and are accurate.

When you tell me that cable companies have used extra cable length, you can of course provide proof, its your claim, prove it. I want evidence, testimony and logs. You cannot just make wild claims like that without backing it up.

What is the coefficient of expansion for an underwater cable per degree of temperature? Do you know? What type of cable, Fibre optic? Electrical cable? Telephone cable? What was the water temp? What was the method of measuring the length of the cable? When were these cables laid? Telegraph cables from Victorian times perhaps?All things you will no doubt have to hand to substantiate your claims. I looms forward to seeing your evidence.

[Macarios]

If perspective puts the sun at the horizon, then the photons are illuminating the observer and sticks from 90 degrees, and will therefore create long shadows.

Cool. Can you show a diagram indicating how photons can travel in a straight line from a sun 3000 miles above the plane of the earth and arrive at my eye horizontally so the sun appears on the horizon and casts long shadows.
Thanks.

There are diagrams of the sun intersecting with the horizon in the p-brane video.

He doesn't say how far it would have to intersect if the Sun'r trajectory was parallel to ground.
But we can calculate for him:

In most common flat model the height of Sun (gap between Sun and ground) is 5005 km.
To make it disappear from human eye it has to reduce to one arc minute (0.0167 degrees).
It would happen at the distance of 5005 / tan(0.0167) = 17 171 578.94 km.

We all know (and can verify any time) that angular speed of Sun is 15 degrees per hour.
We also know that it is constant from any observation point, making it impossible to create model where Sun has variable speed.

If the Sun is constantly at 5005 km above ground, then same length segments of Sun's trajectory will have different angular lengths seen from different angles.
One hour of Sun's movement will cover 15 degrees at noon above our heads and only 5 degrees some distance away at 5 pm.

P-brane pretends that such change in angular speed wouldn't exist, hoping nobody will ask.

Sao Gabriel de Cachoeira, Brazil, place directly on Equator.
Equinox, Sun directly overhead.
At 30 minutes before solar noon Sun is 7.5 degrees to the east.
It is 5005 * tan(7.5) = 658.92 km east of zenith.
At 30 minutes after solar noon Sun is 658.92 km west of zenith.
It makes it 1317.84 km/h.

Was Sun travelling faster/slower this morning?
Will Sun travel faster/slower this afternoon?

More or less than those 1317.84 km/h?

Ok, if not, then from 6:30am to 7:30am Sun swept 5.537 degrees across the sky, and from 6:30pm to 7:30pm will sweep 3.44 degrees.

We can go out and measure angular speed of Sun at 7 am and 7 pm.
If we care to be "zetetic" (inquisitive).

Don't tell me you couldn't see this for yourself?

[AATW]

If perspective puts the sun at the horizon, then the photons are illuminating the observer and sticks from 90 degrees, and will therefore create long shadows.

Cool. Can you show a diagram indicating how photons can travel in a straight line from a sun 3000 miles above the plane of the earth and arrive at my eye horizontally so the sun appears on the horizon and casts long shadows.
Thanks.

There are diagrams of the sun intersecting with the horizon in the p-brane video.

OK. But it only appears to because of perspective, yes? In reality it is 3000 miles above the plane of the surface.
I'm struggling to understand how a ray of light from 3000 miles above the earth can travel in a straight line and end up coming at me horizontally and therefore parallel to the ground, which it has to in order to cast the long shadows.
To understand why this is impossible you only need to think what parallel means, if I shoot a missile at the sun at sunset, the bullet is 4 foot off the ground and I fire it perfectly parallel to the ground, where the sun appears to be, then (assuming the missile doesn't lose any height) the missile will stay 4 feet off the ground.
How then can it hit an object 3000 miles high?

Some diagrams would be helpful to help me understand. Thanks.

[inquisitive]

If perspective puts the sun at the horizon, then the photons are illuminating the observer and sticks from 90 degrees, and will therefore create long shadows.

Cool. Can you show a diagram indicating how photons can travel in a straight line from a sun 3000 miles above the plane of the earth and arrive at my eye horizontally so the sun appears on the horizon and casts long shadows.
Thanks.

There are diagrams of the sun intersecting with the horizon in the p-brane video.

You are using your own meaning for the word perspective which makes zero sense.  I see the sun set in the west, what does someone 1000 miles west of me see at the same time?

[SiDawg]

Perspective is like the thought experiment of a frog trying to cross a river. It is able to jump half the distance to the bank each time. First jump is half the river width... Next jump is quarter the river width etc... How many jumps does he have to take to reach the other side?

Answer: he will never reach the other side. When he's really really really close, he jumps half that distance...

This is how perspective works. When a road gets narrower in the distance, and it forms angled lines towards a vanishing point, think of the two sides of the road. They get closer together, like the frog gets closer to the shore, but the never meet. The eye might think they have, but they haven't. They just keep jumping at the shore. As they get further away, the angle to your eye decreases, until it's really really close to zero degrees.... But it can never be zero. Similarly, the angle between the ground and your eye gets closer and closer to zero, but it can never reach zero... So the horizon "rises" to eye level but it never actually makes it... It just gets really really close so it looks like it does.

P Brane draws a perspective line from a side view which doesn't make any sense. He chooses an arbitrary vanishing point for where the sun sets in front of a viewer and draws a like: a vanishing point is entirely imaginary. It is the bank that the frog will never reach. The angle between the horizon and the sun, and the angle from the top to the bottom of the sun, gets smaller and smaller as it goes away from you but nothing ever vanishes, it's just too small to see. A grain of sand on the moon has not vanished has it? It's too small for me to see but it still hasn't reached a vanishing point. Drawing perspective lines from the side is not sensible. One of these days I'll get around to drawing how perspective ACTUALLY works I.e. How you can accurately draw and therefore model exactly where an object appears in your field of vision, and why, including how you can calculate it, and actually replicate in a drawing exactly what you see from your eye or a camera. Drawing a diagonal line on a side view is a falsity.

[Westprog]

Tom, this is just a leisure activity for us. We don't have the funding to get the data you want.

15% over? Man, it's almost like the ocean floor isn't completely flat. 

The effort required to verify that distances were correct would be enormous. We'd have to schedule literally tens of thousands of flights going back and forth and ensure that the time and speed estimates consistently matched with the distances... oh, wait, we've done that.

So there's actually no possible way to measure distances that would satisfy FE proponents. The detailed maps of the entire inhabited world which are used every second of the day to allow people to seamlessly move around the globe - they aren't real evidence of anything at all.