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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #220 on: May 15, 2022, 05:07:34 PM »
Not everywhere:

"States that allow for late-term abortions with no state-imposed thresholds are Alaska, Colorado, District of Columbia, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, and Vermont."
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/what-states-allow-late-term-abortion

That's 8 out of 50, and DC is not a state. Even liberal cesspits like California and New York impose bans on abortion after a certain number of weeks. Most areas have decided that women do not have a right over their bodies.

It's obviously murkier than that. In essence, they do have body autonomy up to a certain point, then they don't. And in some cases they have full body autonomy.

And it looks like all States currently allow autonomy under certain circumstances:




Quote from: stack
And if we were to examine the overall issue based on consensus, the national majority consensus is that RvW should remain in place.

That might hold water if the US was founded to combine state health laws into a unified national laws, but it was decided that states would be largely independent entities with its own laws on a state level. The states decide on their own abortion laws, as illustrated by the xx week bans and other abortion laws already in place.

In theory, you are incorrect:

The Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution

Under the Supremacy Clause, found in Article VI, section 2 of the U.S. Constitution, both the Constitution and federal law supersede state laws. Article I, section 8 of the Constitution defines the powers of the U.S. Congress. It grants some powers exclusively to Congress, such as legislation regarding immigration, bankruptcy, and currency. States do not have the authority to create their own immigration or bankruptcy systems, or to mint their own currency.

The Supreme Court got rid of the errant national precedent from RvW and rightly turned it over to the states to decide for themselves democratically.

Not yet.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #221 on: May 15, 2022, 05:24:11 PM »
Yes, it's the woman's body and therefore the woman's right to choose, not the man's.

This is an argument that women have absolute right over their body. They do not.
Do women have the right to choose to not have children?

Yes. If they are not ready for children they can choose not to engage in the actions that result in the creation of children. If they are truly adamant about not having children for some reason they can choose to get their tube tied. If they are unsure and do not want to follow that path, and still wish to be sexually active, then they should be aware of the consequences for that decision.

How hard is it to keep your legs shut until you are at a point that you are ready to be responsible for your actions? Plenty of women throughout history have been able to tell men "not until marriage" and not give in until she knew that she and her partner was ready. Plenty of people also go years without sex, as they focus on schooling, a career, and betterment of themselves. It's not impossible to view sex as a luxury that you can have when you are prepared to have it, like alcohol. It's called self control.

Men are universally told that if they didn't want to be held responsible they shouldn't have done it and that their actions have consequences. Women should likewise be held responsible. They should know that actions have consequences. There is no reason to impose a death penalty on a child in the womb out of selfish or petty reasons.

The law recognizes an unborn child enough to consider it homicide if it is killed by anyone other than the mother - it is not just an assault charge. That should apply to the mother as well. Perhaps the consequences of fetal homicide should not be the same as normal homicide, but there should definitely be consequences.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 07:49:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #222 on: May 15, 2022, 05:49:48 PM »
I always love watching conservatives, who are very pro-personal liberties, defend the government telling people what they can or can't do with their bodies.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #223 on: May 15, 2022, 05:58:56 PM »
I always love watching conservatives, who are very pro-personal liberties, defend the government telling people what they can or can't do with their bodies.

When a woman is pregnant it's not just her body though. There is another entity within her. Laws already tell women that they do not have right over their body, banning abortion after xx weeks in most areas. It is incorrect that a woman has absolute right over her body.

It is also considered homicide if someone causes a woman to lose her baby at any stage of gestation in many areas. It is not merely assault.

There are laws banning you from killing bird eggs:

https://goldengateaudubon.org/conservation/make-the-city-safe-for-wildlife/tree-care-and-bird-safety/laws-protecting-birds

    FEDERAL MIGRATORY BIRD TREATY ACT:
    703. Taking, killing, or possessing migratory birds unlawful.

    “…it shall be unlawful at any time, by any means or in any manner, to pursue, hunt, take, capture, kill, attempt to take, capture, or kill, possess, offer for sale, sell, offer to barter, offer to purchase, deliver for shipment, ship, export, import, cause to be shipped, exported, or imported, deliver for transportation, transport or cause to be transported, carry or cause to be carried, or receive for shipment, transportation, carriage, or export, any migratory bird, any part, nest, or eggs of any such bird, or any product, whether or not manufactured, which consists, or is composed in whole or part, of any such bird or any part, nest, or egg thereof…”

    ...

    CALIFORNIA STATE CODE:

    3503. It is unlawful to take, possess, or needlessly destroy the nest or eggs of any bird, except as otherwise provided by this code or any regulation made pursuant thereto.

    ...

    Title 14, Chapter 1, Section 251.1. Harassment of Animals

    Except as otherwise authorized in these regulations or in the Fish and Wildlife Code, no person shall harass, herd or drive any game or non-game bird or mammal or furbearing mammal. For the purposes of this section, harass is defined as an intentional act which disrupts an animal’s normal behavior patterns, which includes, but is not limited to, breeding, feeding or sheltering. This section does not apply to a landowner or tenant who drives or herds birds or mammals for the purpose of preventing damage to private or public property, including aquaculture and agriculture crops.

    ...

    SAN FRANCISCO COUNTY MUNICIPAL CODE:
    Sec 5.08. It is unlawful to disturb birds.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 06:20:57 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #224 on: May 15, 2022, 06:14:43 PM »
How hard is it to keep your legs shut until you are at a point that you are ready to be responsible for your actions?

Wow! Someone is living in the 1800's.

And what do bird eggs have to do with humans? Maybe there should be state laws charging birds with abandonment when they kick a chick out of the nest.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #225 on: May 15, 2022, 06:19:35 PM »
I always love watching conservatives, who are very pro-personal liberties, defend the government telling people what they can or can't do with their bodies.

When a woman is pregnant it's not just her body though. There is another entity within her. Laws already tell women that they do not have right over their body, banning abortion after xx weeks in most areas. It is incorrect that a woman has absolute right over her body.

It is also considered homicide if someone causes a woman to lose her baby at any stage of gestation in many areas. It is not merely assault.

There are laws banning you from killing bird eggs:

https://goldengateaudubon.org/conservation/make-the-city-safe-for-wildlife/tree-care-and-bird-safety/laws-protecting-birds

    FEDERAL MIGRATORY BIRD TREATY ACT:
    703. Taking, killing, or possessing migratory birds unlawful.

    “…it shall be unlawful at any time, by any means or in any manner, to pursue, hunt, take, capture, kill, attempt to take, capture, or kill, possess, offer for sale, sell, offer to barter, offer to purchase, deliver for shipment, ship, export, import, cause to be shipped, exported, or imported, deliver for transportation, transport or cause to be transported, carry or cause to be carried, or receive for shipment, transportation, carriage, or export, any migratory bird, any part, nest, or eggs of any such bird, or any product, whether or not manufactured, which consists, or is composed in whole or part, of any such bird or any part, nest, or egg thereof…”

    ...

    CALIFORNIA STATE CODE:

    3503. It is unlawful to take, possess, or needlessly destroy the nest or eggs of any bird, except as otherwise provided by this code or any regulation made pursuant thereto.

    ...

    Title 14, Chapter 1, Section 251.1. Harassment of Animals

    Except as otherwise authorized in these regulations or in the Fish and Wildlife Code, no person shall harass, herd or drive any game or non-game bird or mammal or furbearing mammal. For the purposes of this section, harass is defined as an intentional act which disrupts an animal’s normal behavior patterns, which includes, but is not limited to, breeding, feeding or sheltering. This section does not apply to a landowner or tenant who drives or herds birds or mammals for the purpose of preventing damage to private or public property, including aquaculture and agriculture crops.

    ...

    SAN FRANCISCO COUNTY MUNICIPAL CODE:
    Sec 5.08. It is unlawful to disturb birds.


So, to recap.
You are 100% in support of a government agency having legal say over a person's own body.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #226 on: May 15, 2022, 06:44:22 PM »
And what do bird eggs have to do with humans?

That's a simple one. If we recognize the life of a developing bird egg at any stage of development and are banning their destruction, then by this level of the recognition of life the we should also recognize human life at any stage of development.

You do not have absolute right over your property, and you do not have absolute right over your body. The US is a system of states which democratically enact their own health and property laws. If the people of a state want to tell women that they need to be personally responsible and can't abort babies anymore, then that is simply democracy in action.

Quote from: Lord Dave
So, to recap.
You are 100% in support of a government agency having legal say over a person's own body.

I think you mean the people of each state democratically managing their own health affairs. The government agency isn't an outside entity.

And yes, we have largely decided as a society that you do not have ultimate authority over your body. We ban drinking and driving, for example. You do not have a right to drink whenever you want. Having bodily autonomy does not mean any person gets to undermine the health, rights or autonomy of others.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2022, 12:20:18 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #227 on: May 15, 2022, 06:59:51 PM »

And yes, we have largely decided as a society that you do not have ultimate authority over your body. We ban drinking and driving, for example. You do not have a right to drink whenever you want.
This is not due to putting something into your body but rather the driving while being unable to drive safely.  Kinda like driving with your eyes closed.


Quote
Having bodily autonomy does not mean any person gets to undermine the health, rights or autonomy of others.
...
Irony.

No wait, its not surprising.

Hypocracy.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 07:01:26 PM by Lord Dave »
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #228 on: May 15, 2022, 08:28:17 PM »
And what do bird eggs have to do with humans?

That's a simple one. If we recognize the life of a developing bird egg at any stage of development and are banning their destruction, then by this level of the recognition of life the we should also recognize human life at any stage of development.

I guess by that logic, State governments should mandate everyone should be a vegetarian. No more eggs over easy for anyone. No more hamburgers. Save the chickens! Meat is murder!

If you're gonna go all the way over to endangered animals, I might as well bring up more human "my body, my choice" issues. Ironically, are you against vaccine mandates? Or are you ok with States and municipalities determining vaccine mandate laws?

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #229 on: May 15, 2022, 09:28:19 PM »
Ah, yes. The very democratic process of letting the minority (rural counties) decide that women should have sex only for procreation. All super original points that are very logical, efficient, and have historically worked super well everywhere it was implemented. Thanks, Tom!

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Offline honk

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #230 on: May 15, 2022, 09:56:53 PM »
Yes, it's the woman's body and therefore the woman's right to choose, not the man's.

This is an argument that women have absolute right over their body.They do not. It is widely illegal in most areas to abort after a certain number of weeks, even in very liberal areas in the US. The woman is forced by the law to carry the baby and is forced to give birth, even if she doesn't want to. They do not have a choice. This shows that women do not have the right to do what they want with their bodies.

This is a really bizarre argument. We are currently discussing abortions that happen, not hypothetical abortions that don't happen because it's too late in the pregnancy. I explained - correctly - that women are allowed to "abandon" their unborn children through abortions while men aren't because it's the woman's body and therefore her right to choose. That is the reason why abortion - legal abortions that happen, not hypothetical abortions that don't happen - is legal. A woman's right to an abortion doesn't need to be "absolute" for it to exist generally, no more than any other right or freedom does.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #231 on: May 15, 2022, 11:56:39 PM »
lol aside from the fact that this is absurdly illogical, you're just creating a legal loophole for literally every man to get out of having to pay any child support simply by saying he wanted to get an abortion.
Not necessarily. There are ways of implementing that idea which do not have such consequences. Assuming the least generous possible implementation of someone else's stated principle is not a very honest way to debate.

like what?

you stated that if the man wants to get an abortion and the woman declines, the man should be off the hook for his child support obligations. i fail to see how such a system could possibly avoid the consequence of "any man who doesn't want to pay child support to a woman he has impregnated can simply request that she get an abortion."
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #232 on: May 16, 2022, 12:36:29 AM »
I always love watching conservatives, who are very pro-personal liberties, defend the government telling people what they can or can't do with their bodies.

Is murder a personal liberty, Dave?

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Offline xasop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #233 on: May 16, 2022, 10:35:51 AM »
you stated that if the man wants to get an abortion and the woman declines, the man should be off the hook for his child support obligations. i fail to see how such a system could possibly avoid the consequence of "any man who doesn't want to pay child support to a woman he has impregnated can simply request that she get an abortion."
That's not a consequence, it is the intended goal, but that's not what you said before. This is a bit like saying that allowing abortion has the consequence of "any woman who doesn't want to have a child can simply have an abortion".
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #234 on: May 16, 2022, 12:25:45 PM »
I always love watching conservatives, who are very pro-personal liberties, defend the government telling people what they can or can't do with their bodies.

Is murder a personal liberty, Dave?
*Points to Second Amendment*
According to American: yes.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #235 on: May 19, 2022, 01:30:42 AM »
I don't see why this is so hard to figure out.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 01:43:51 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #236 on: May 19, 2022, 06:03:22 AM »
I don't see why this is so hard to figure out.



What about men?  Could tell them not to have sex too.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Online Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #237 on: May 19, 2022, 11:17:41 AM »
I don't see why this is so hard to figure out.



Ah yes, telling people to repress natural urges is surely the way to a healthy society. I expect nothing different from Madam Jewish Space Laser.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #238 on: May 19, 2022, 03:26:37 PM »
Ah yes, telling people to repress natural urges is surely the way to a healthy society. I expect nothing different from Madam Jewish Space Laser.

You can't seriously be arguing that acting on your natural urges is the best way to a healthy society. Young adults can have a natural urge to steal things from stores, cheat in school, skip classes to hang out with friends, and watch TV entertainment instead of doing schoolwork. People might also have a natural urge to speed and drive recklessly through town to meet an appointment, strike their pets and children when angry, issue threats to get their way, and on and on.

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #239 on: May 19, 2022, 03:28:15 PM »
Ah yes, telling people to repress natural urges is surely the way to a healthy society. I expect nothing different from Madam Jewish Space Laser.

You can't seriously be arguing that acting on your natural urge is the best way to a healthy society. Young adults can have a natural urge to steal things from stores, cheat in school, skip classes to hang out with friends, and watch TV entertainment instead of doing schoolwork. People might also have a natural urge to drive recklessly through town to meet an appointment, strike their pets and children when angry, issue threats to get their way, and on and on.

No I’m not suggesting that in the slightest. If you are interested, ask a good faith question; one that doesn’t include strawmen or false dilemmas.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.