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Offline Rama Set

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #80 on: January 27, 2022, 02:46:55 AM »
A doctor putting their personal beliefs above the medical needs of a patient is not fulfilling their oath as a doctor. It’s simple.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #81 on: January 27, 2022, 03:46:11 AM »
A doctor putting their personal beliefs above the medical needs of a patient is not fulfilling their oath as a doctor. It’s simple.

It's not a personal belief that fetuses are living. It's a medical fact. The doctor took an oath to protect life. The doctor refuses to give abortion pills. Why is he or she wrong?

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Offline rooster

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #82 on: January 27, 2022, 04:41:45 AM »
A doctor putting their personal beliefs above the medical needs of a patient is not fulfilling their oath as a doctor. It’s simple.

It's not a personal belief that fetuses are living. It's a medical fact. The doctor took an oath to protect life. The doctor refuses to give abortion pills. Why is he or she wrong?
This argument is dumb. The doctors giving abortions or prescribing abortion pills are already fine with doing it. No one is forcing them to work at the clinics.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 04:43:42 AM by rooster »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #83 on: January 27, 2022, 05:21:11 AM »
There are clinics who provide more services than just giving out abortions and abortion pills.

https://www.wbur.org/news/2019/05/23/primary-care-abortion-medication-pills

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Dr. Kerry Pound, a Salem pediatrician on the board of Massachusetts Citizens for Life, says medication abortions may appeal to some doctors because they take effect in the privacy of a patient's home.

"But I do think, at the end of the day, most physicians are a little uncomfortable with abortion," she says, "because we go into medicine to really support life and patient health, and at the end of the day, there is a life that's being ended."

And for some, she says, it could be hard even to work in a practice where medication abortions are offered.

"I think I, myself, as a pro-life physician, that would be very difficult for me," she says. "To think that my patients may go over to another doctor in order to obtain an abortion would probably be a deal-breaker for me to work in that practice, to be honest."

Two doctors work in the same clinic. One hands out abortion pills and the other doesn't.

The one who doesn't says that she took an oath to protect life, etc.

Why should the law force doctors who don't want to provide abortion pills compromise their ethical beliefs as a doctor?

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Offline rooster

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2022, 05:29:00 AM »
lol she's not even okay with a patient going to a different doctor for the pills.

Again, no one is actually forcing them to stay at that clinic. Miss Uptight implied she'd leave the practice.

No force is happening.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #85 on: January 27, 2022, 06:24:27 AM »
Rama Set insists that doctors should be forced to provide medical services regardless of their conscientious or ethical beliefs. Why should a doctor be forced to provide abortion pills when they feel it goes against their oath as a doctor?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2022, 06:38:43 AM »
Rama Set insists that doctors should be forced to provide medical services regardless of their conscientious or ethical beliefs. Why should a doctor be forced to provide abortion pills when they feel it goes against their oath as a doctor?

If a cashier at an alcohol shop feels its unethical to sell alcohol, what should they do?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #87 on: January 27, 2022, 06:46:05 AM »
Rama Set insists that doctors should be forced to provide medical services regardless of their conscientious or ethical beliefs. Why should a doctor be forced to provide abortion pills when they feel it goes against their oath as a doctor?

If a cashier at an alcohol shop feels its unethical to sell alcohol, what should they do?

I don't think the law should force anyone to sell alcohol if they don't want to. Nor should the alcohol store be obligated to hire them.

In this case the clinic is fine with hiring a doctor who won't prescribe abortion pills. The argument is whether the law should force doctors to provide medical services regardless of their personal beliefs. Why should the law get involved to force the doctor to provide abortion pills?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #88 on: January 27, 2022, 10:03:11 AM »
Rama Set insists that doctors should be forced to provide medical services regardless of their conscientious or ethical beliefs. Why should a doctor be forced to provide abortion pills when they feel it goes against their oath as a doctor?

Nope. You’re showing your delusion again. I’ve never mentioned abortion, except referencing your pathetic trolls.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #89 on: January 27, 2022, 10:28:12 AM »
And another thread derailed...
Really need to stop feeding this troll.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #90 on: January 27, 2022, 10:32:50 AM »
Rama Set insists that doctors should be forced to provide medical services regardless of their conscientious or ethical beliefs. Why should a doctor be forced to provide abortion pills when they feel it goes against their oath as a doctor?

Nope. You’re showing your delusion again. I’ve never mentioned abortion, except referencing your pathetic trolls.

You posted an article called "Florida bill would allow doctors to decline services based on their conscience" and said "This is such an unbelievably stupid bill no matter your political leanings" as well as "A doctor putting their personal beliefs above the medical needs of a patient is not fulfilling their oath as a doctor. It’s simple." and "What I don’t want is a doctor not to treat someone based on a non-medical issue. "

But now you don't want to talk about doctors denying abortion pills based on their conscience.

How unsurprising that you can't defend examples of your bad argument.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #91 on: January 27, 2022, 10:39:38 AM »
And another thread derailed...
Really need to stop feeding this troll.

We're actually still talking about a GOP Florida bill. If you don't have anything to contribute to the thread I would suggest not posting.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #92 on: January 27, 2022, 11:01:03 AM »
Rama Set insists that doctors should be forced to provide medical services regardless of their conscientious or ethical beliefs. Why should a doctor be forced to provide abortion pills when they feel it goes against their oath as a doctor?

Nope. You’re showing your delusion again. I’ve never mentioned abortion, except referencing your pathetic trolls.

You posted an article called "Florida bill would allow doctors to decline services based on their conscience" and said "This is such an unbelievably stupid bill no matter your political leanings" as well as "A doctor putting their personal beliefs above the medical needs of a patient is not fulfilling their oath as a doctor. It’s simple." and "What I don’t want is a doctor not to treat someone based on a non-medical issue. "

But now you don't want to talk about doctors denying abortion pills based on their conscience.

How unsurprising that you can't defend examples of your bad argument.

Are you claiming that being against abortion is solely a personal choice and has no basis in medical science? Unless you are doing that, then you’re simply parroting GOP wedge issues and not engaging with what I said.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #93 on: January 27, 2022, 12:37:39 PM »
Rama Set insists that doctors should be forced to provide medical services regardless of their conscientious or ethical beliefs. Why should a doctor be forced to provide abortion pills when they feel it goes against their oath as a doctor?

If a cashier at an alcohol shop feels its unethical to sell alcohol, what should they do?

I don't think the law should force anyone to sell alcohol if they don't want to. Nor should the alcohol store be obligated to hire them.

In this case the clinic is fine with hiring a doctor who won't prescribe abortion pills. The argument is whether the law should force doctors to provide medical services regardless of their personal beliefs. Why should the law get involved to force the doctor to provide abortion pills?
You never answered the question.
What.  Should.  The.  Cashier.  Do?
Its a pretty simple question.  He either sells it, doesn't sell it, or quits his job.  Those are his choices.  And if you have moral issues selling alcohol... Why did you apply for a job that would require you to do it?

As for the clinic...
Did the clinic know before hand?  Is it a clinic that handles abortion based medical services? 
Basically: is there a possibility that abortion pill prescription would come up at this clinic when said doctor applied for the job?


Also: if he doesn't do his job, the clinic should be allowed to fire him.  Just like every other job if someone refuses to do a legal part of it.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #94 on: January 28, 2022, 11:26:00 AM »
Are you claiming that being against abortion is solely a personal choice and has no basis in medical science? Unless you are doing that, then you’re simply parroting GOP wedge issues and not engaging with what I said.

Okay, so you concede. You think that doctors shouldn't be forced to provide abortion drugs.

Now can you tell us why a doctor should be forced to prescribe anything they don't feel is ethical to prescribe? Why should the law force them to do anything?

Euthanasia drugs, hormone therapy, puberty blockers, drugs the doctor feels is inappropriate; why should they be forced by the law to provide it?

Quote
You never answered the question.
What.  Should.  The.  Cashier.  Do?
Its a pretty simple question.  He either sells it, doesn't sell it, or quits his job.  Those are his choices.  And if you have moral issues selling alcohol... Why did you apply for a job that would require you to do it?

As for the clinic...
Did the clinic know before hand?  Is it a clinic that handles abortion based medical services?
Basically: is there a possibility that abortion pill prescription would come up at this clinic when said doctor applied for the job?

Also: if he doesn't do his job, the clinic should be allowed to fire him.  Just like every other job if someone refuses to do a legal part of it.

This scenario isn't analogous to this bill. Employees are generally hired at the discretion of the employer. The employer generally has the power of buying (hiring) what they like, just like you have the power of buying the things that you like. You have the power of going to another employer, like the employer has the power of hiring someone else. The employer can fire the worker refusing to sell alcohol, I agree. If the markets weren't free enough to where you didn't have the power of going to another employer, and we were all forced to work for Safeway and Costco, there might be enough support for a law against employers requiring workers to sell alcohol and other vices, and the company would have to make alcohol checkout lanes or sell it online.

In this case the bill was about the law forcing doctors to provide services that they didn't want to provide, which is different than the requirements of an employer in a free market.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 11:55:10 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #95 on: January 28, 2022, 11:47:17 AM »
Are you claiming that being against abortion is solely a personal choice and has no basis in medical science? Unless you are doing that, then you’re simply parroting GOP wedge issues and not engaging with what I said.

Okay, so you concede. You think that doctors shouldn't be forced to provide abortion drugs.

Now can you tell us why you think a doctor should be forced to prescribe anything they don't feel is ethical to prescribe? Why should the law force them to do anything?

Euthanasia drugs, hormone therapy, puberty blockers, drugs the doctor feels is inappropriate; why should they be forced by the law to provide it?

The biggest reason is because you are a troll. Why would I discuss this with you when you simply ignore everything?.



Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline stack

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2022, 05:22:16 PM »
Now can you tell us why a doctor should be forced to prescribe anything they don't feel is ethical to prescribe? Why should the law force them to do anything?

Euthanasia drugs, hormone therapy, puberty blockers, drugs the doctor feels is inappropriate; why should they be forced by the law to provide it?

Why should they be forced by law to provide it...A curious contradiction...

Florida teacher at center of ivermectin lawsuit dies of COVID; husband says 'name a law after her'

Tamara Drock, 47, of Loxahatchee, Florida, died 12 weeks after being admitted to Palm Beach Gardens Medical Center for treatment. Her husband, Ryan Drock, sued the hospital last month in an attempt to require it to administer ivermectin, a drug approved by the FDA only to treat conditions caused by parasitic worms but not COVID-19.

I guess with a bill such as this, the hospital wouldn't get sued for not administering Ivermectin, or it would simply be dismissed. Right?

In any case, who is forcing doctors to prescribe/administer euthanasia drugs, hormone therapy, puberty blockers, abortion pills, etc.?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2022, 06:27:07 PM »
Why should they be forced by law to provide it...A curious contradiction...

Florida teacher at center of ivermectin lawsuit dies of COVID; husband says 'name a law after her'

Tamara Drock, 47, of Loxahatchee, Florida, died 12 weeks after being admitted to Palm Beach Gardens Medical Center for treatment. Her husband, Ryan Drock, sued the hospital last month in an attempt to require it to administer ivermectin, a drug approved by the FDA only to treat conditions caused by parasitic worms but not COVID-19.

I guess with a bill such as this, the hospital wouldn't get sued for not administering Ivermectin, or it would simply be dismissed. Right?

The bill is pretty clear that it doesn't apply to life threatening emergency situations, so if the court determines that the hospital is purposely denying life saving drugs to people they should be held accountable:

https://www.wesh.com/article/florida-bill-doctors-decline-service/38890098?fbclid=IwAR2Ab9VgHtfyOuBIFbbN5c-cL2KqS4jemL2xcb5_5sIegw4-9BJfIsnqhJ8#

    "If I went into an ER, and someone felt like they, for some reason, didn't want to provide me a service, because it went against their conscience, is that a possibility?" Hope asked.

    "Absolutely not. There's again, very clear guidance that talks about the duty for a health care provider to act in an emergency situation," Snyder said.

Quote from: stack
In any case, who is forcing doctors to prescribe/administer euthanasia drugs, hormone therapy, puberty blockers, abortion pills, etc.?

The bill wants to uphold the right of the doctor to use their conscience to treat patients.

I've been asking Rama Set and others who disagree with the bill for the reasoning of forcing doctors to provide services they believe is unethical, but there is a resounding silence here.

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Offline stack

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #98 on: January 28, 2022, 06:27:50 PM »
Why should they be forced by law to provide it...A curious contradiction...

Florida teacher at center of ivermectin lawsuit dies of COVID; husband says 'name a law after her'

Tamara Drock, 47, of Loxahatchee, Florida, died 12 weeks after being admitted to Palm Beach Gardens Medical Center for treatment. Her husband, Ryan Drock, sued the hospital last month in an attempt to require it to administer ivermectin, a drug approved by the FDA only to treat conditions caused by parasitic worms but not COVID-19.

I guess with a bill such as this, the hospital wouldn't get sued for not administering Ivermectin, or it would simply be dismissed. Right?

The bill is pretty clear that it doesn't apply to life threatening emergency situations, so if the court determines that the hospital is purposely denying life saving drugs to people they should be held accountable:

https://www.wesh.com/article/florida-bill-doctors-decline-service/38890098?fbclid=IwAR2Ab9VgHtfyOuBIFbbN5c-cL2KqS4jemL2xcb5_5sIegw4-9BJfIsnqhJ8#

    "If I went into an ER, and someone felt like they, for some reason, didn't want to provide me a service, because it went against their conscience, is that a possibility?" Hope asked.

    "Absolutely not. There's again, very clear guidance that talks about the duty for a health care provider to act in an emergency situation," Snyder said.

Who said Ivermectin was "life saving"? And who said the scenario was an "emergency situation"?

And from the article, this is decidedly disturbing:

Snyder is sponsoring a Florida bill he said better protects the medical conscience of health care providers and insurance companies.

"This will allow a health care payer or provider to decline to participate in any health care service that violates their conscience," Snyder said Tuesday at a committee meeting.


Since when do insurance companies have a conscience?

Quote from: stack
In any case, who is forcing doctors to prescribe/administer euthanasia drugs, hormone therapy, puberty blockers, abortion pills, etc.?

The bill wants to uphold the right of the doctor to use their conscience to treat patients.

I've been asking Rama Set and others who disagree with the bill for the reasoning of forcing doctors to provide services they believe is unethical, but there is a resounding silence here.

You didn't answer the question. Who is "forcing" these physicians to do things that go against their conscience?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #99 on: January 28, 2022, 06:56:22 PM »
Who said Ivermectin was "life saving"? And who said the scenario was an "emergency situation"?

That's the purpose of the case in the link to determine.

Quote from: stack
You didn't answer the question. Who is "forcing" these physicians to do things that go against their conscience?

I'm not aware of any law forcing doctors to do things against their conscience. The bill upholds their current right to decline from providing services they believe is unethical. Rama Set disagrees with the bill and wants to force doctors to do things which go against their conscience. Can you tell me why he's right and why doctors should be compelled by the law to provide what they believe to be unethical services?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 07:01:19 PM by Tom Bishop »