Offline Blanko

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #340 on: April 03, 2014, 04:08:38 PM »
Sorry, I was legitimately under the impression that you're unable to admit to anything. I'm not sure how to feel about this.

I know. It must be such a strange, foreign concept to you. Feel free to take an aspirin to alleviate the massive headache you must have as you try to process what is certainly something you've never contemplated doing.

There's the Rushy I know. :^)

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But PvP is a part of the "entire game". If you play offline, then you're not playing the game in its entirety.

A game that has PvP does not make it a PvP game. Planetside 2 is a PvP game, Darks Souls is not.

oh
However, it doesn't really matter what you call it; it still has a large focus on PvP and thus arbitrarily limiting its potential would be poor design.

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Yes, that would be an awful strategy. So why do you keep talking about it? Why is it relevant in Dark Souls in particular? You can beat any game by finding the right combination of button presses through trial and error, and especially in actual strategy games it would be a whole lot easier than in Dark Souls. So is every game terrible?

You're confused again. See, anyone can beat every boss in Dark Souls using a dagger and dodging. You don't need to trial and error strategy, as Dark Souls contains one basic winning  strategy. The game doesn't even try to get you to use other strategies because it includes zero bosses that don't enforce dodging as your primary tactic.

You didn't answer my question. You said trial and error is "a very bad" strategy, yet every game employs it and doesn't require you to use anything else. Just like Dark Souls. So I ask again, is every game terrible?

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Offline beardo

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #341 on: April 03, 2014, 04:25:04 PM »
anyone can beat every boss in Dark Souls using a dagger and dodging
I can't.
The Mastery.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #342 on: April 03, 2014, 04:32:34 PM »
You didn't answer my question. You said trial and error is "a very bad" strategy, yet every game employs it and doesn't require you to use anything else. Just like Dark Souls. So I ask again, is every game terrible?

Dark Souls requires you to trial and error defeating a boss, not strategy. You use the same strategy every time. The only thing Dark Souls requires is that you play a memory game of bosses. Other (well designed) games require you to use different strategies. For example, if I'm playing starcraft and the computer is using battlecruisers, I will never win using siege tanks. Ever.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #343 on: April 03, 2014, 04:41:43 PM »
You didn't answer my question. You said trial and error is "a very bad" strategy, yet every game employs it and doesn't require you to use anything else. Just like Dark Souls. So I ask again, is every game terrible?

Dark Souls requires you to trial and error defeating a boss, not strategy. You use the same strategy every time. The only thing Dark Souls requires is that you play a memory game of bosses. Other (well designed) games require you to use different strategies. For example, if I'm playing starcraft and the computer is using battlecruisers, I will never win using siege tanks. Ever.

Yeah, so in trial and error once you've tried siege tanks and found them to not be effective, you would just move on to try something else instead. That's the whole point. You don't need to think about what you're doing or why something works, you would still beat any game given enough time and variations. So, maybe we should put "no thinking required" on every game box!

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #344 on: April 03, 2014, 04:48:15 PM »

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #345 on: April 03, 2014, 04:48:41 PM »
Yeah, so in trial and error once you've tried siege tanks and found them to not be effective, you would just move on to try something else instead. That's the whole point. You don't need to think about what you're doing or why something works, you would still beat any game given enough time and variations. So, maybe we should put "no thinking required" on every game box!

No, the Dark Souls equivalent would be me using Siege Tanks over and over again and they eventually win. In Dark Souls you're not using trial and error for choosing a strategy (you are already going to dodge/stab) you are using trial and error against the boss. You already go in knowing dodge/stab wins, you just don't know how it wins. That is bad design.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #346 on: April 03, 2014, 04:52:48 PM »
Yeah, so in trial and error once you've tried siege tanks and found them to not be effective, you would just move on to try something else instead. That's the whole point. You don't need to think about what you're doing or why something works, you would still beat any game given enough time and variations. So, maybe we should put "no thinking required" on every game box!

No, the Dark Souls equivalent would be me using Siege Tanks over and over again and they eventually win. In Dark Souls you're not using trial and error for choosing a strategy (you are already going to dodge/stab) you are using trial and error against the boss. You already go in knowing dodge/stab wins, you just don't know how it wins. That is bad design.

The equivalent of a very bad strategy is a very bad strategy. Even if you don't use siege tanks over and over again, it's still going to be trial and error, and thus still be a very bad strategy, like you've already said, no? You can beat Starcraft by pure trial and error, and that is bad design.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #347 on: April 03, 2014, 04:59:41 PM »
The equivalent of a very bad strategy is a very bad strategy. Even if you don't use siege tanks over and over again, it's still going to be trial and error, and thus still be a very bad strategy, like you've already said, no? You can beat Starcraft by pure trial and error, and that is bad design.

Trial and error is a bad strategy to use against bosses, not games. I don't think you're understanding the difference between fighting strategy and playing strategy. In Dark Souls you use the same strategy against every boss. In StarCraft, use the same strategy against every player and prepare to lose. Even computers don't fall for the same strategy over and over again in StarCraft (as it uses actual AI, unlike Dark Souls).

Offline Blanko

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #348 on: April 03, 2014, 05:07:09 PM »
The equivalent of a very bad strategy is a very bad strategy. Even if you don't use siege tanks over and over again, it's still going to be trial and error, and thus still be a very bad strategy, like you've already said, no? You can beat Starcraft by pure trial and error, and that is bad design.

Trial and error is a bad strategy to use against bosses, not games. I don't think you're understanding the difference between fighting strategy and playing strategy. In Dark Souls you use the same strategy against every boss. In StarCraft, use the same strategy against every player and prepare to lose. Even computers don't fall for the same strategy over and over again in StarCraft (as it uses actual AI, unlike Dark Souls).

So it's fine that you don't have to think about strategy at all in order to beat Starcraft? Well, that's interesting. I guess we can still put "No thinking required" on the box, but it wouldn't be derogatory?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 05:11:15 PM by Blanko »

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #349 on: April 03, 2014, 05:16:32 PM »
So it's fine that you don't have to think about strategy at all in order to beat Starcraft?

Please offer me a strategy that beats all StarCraft games. A strategy equal to the all powerful dodge/stab of Dark Souls.

Well, that's interesting. I guess we can still put "No thinking required" on the box, but it wouldn't be derogatory?

What's interesting is your argument seems to lean on not understanding mine. At this point you're just stalling and have already lost.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #350 on: April 03, 2014, 05:19:30 PM »
So it's fine that you don't have to think about strategy at all in order to beat Starcraft?

Please offer me a strategy that beats all StarCraft games. A strategy equal to the all powerful dodge/stab of Dark Souls.

Trying different things at random until you find something that works.

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Well, that's interesting. I guess we can still put "No thinking required" on the box, but it wouldn't be derogatory?

What's interesting is your argument seems to lean on not understanding mine. At this point you're just stalling and have already lost.

Likewise. :^)

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #351 on: April 03, 2014, 05:23:38 PM »
Trying different things at random until you find something that works.

You would lose against your opponent every time. Whereas in Dark Souls, you would win eventually. A badly designed game compared to well designed game always loses.

Likewise. :^)

You're just stalling then? How sad.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #352 on: April 03, 2014, 05:26:59 PM »
Trying different things at random until you find something that works.

You would lose against your opponent every time.

Incorrect. If there is a method to beating a particular thing, then that method can be picked at random and replicated.

Since no game is literally impossible to beat, this applies to every game.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #353 on: April 03, 2014, 05:29:57 PM »
Incorrect. If there is a method to beating a particular thing, then that method can be picked at random and replicated.

This does not apply to StarCraft.

Since no game is literally impossible to beat, this applies to every game.

Alright, then. Since it applies to every game, I want to see a video of a person beating all campaign missions in StarCraft using the same strategy over and over again. I will afterward provide a video of someone running Dark Souls beating every enemy in the game by using only dodging and attacking.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #354 on: April 03, 2014, 05:38:19 PM »
Incorrect. If there is a method to beating a particular thing, then that method can be picked at random and replicated.

This does not apply to StarCraft.

That would be impossible, unless some part of the campaign was actually unbeatable. If it is beatable, then a method to beating it definitely exists; even if it changes by AI (unlikely), a method would still eventually be picked out at random.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #355 on: April 03, 2014, 05:44:10 PM »
That would be impossible, unless some part of the campaign was actually unbeatable. If it is beatable, then a method to beating it definitely exists; even if it changes by AI (unlikely), a method would still eventually be picked out at random.

Oh, if it is impossible maybe you should prove it, then. Use a random calculator to determine the size and composition of your force, then defeat at least one opponent at multiplayer (including vs. AI) StarCraft (excluding anything under "Hard" as that hamstrings the AI). I'll then post evidence of a player fighting a boss over and over again using dodge and attacking until he wins, even better, I can show PvP battles where the players only use dodge and attack.

Basic Chaos Theory will show that you'll never win a game of StarCraft unless your opponent is also choosing a random strategy, something AI or a player would never do.

I would say you could just use a video, but funny enough, there is no one who plays StarCraft by using a random trial and error strategy, there hundreds of videos of players using trial and error to beat Dark Souls, though.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #356 on: April 03, 2014, 05:56:26 PM »
That would be impossible, unless some part of the campaign was actually unbeatable. If it is beatable, then a method to beating it definitely exists; even if it changes by AI (unlikely), a method would still eventually be picked out at random.

Oh, if it is impossible maybe you should prove it, then. Use a random calculator to determine the size and composition of your force, then defeat at least one opponent at multiplayer (including vs. AI) StarCraft (excluding anything under "Hard" as that hamstrings the AI). I'll then post evidence of a player fighting a boss over and over again using dodge and attacking until he wins, even better, I can show PvP battles where the players only use dodge and attack.

Basic Chaos Theory will show that you'll never win a game of StarCraft unless your opponent is also choosing a random strategy, something AI or a player would never do.

I would say you could just use a video, but funny enough, there is no one who plays StarCraft by using a random trial and error strategy, there hundreds of videos of players using trial and error to beat Dark Souls, though.

So you're saying a strategy that would win a game normally, wouldn't win if it was picked at random instead. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.  ::)

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #357 on: April 03, 2014, 06:44:07 PM »
This is why fist fights are better.  They are equally as senseless but done way sooner.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #358 on: April 03, 2014, 06:55:10 PM »
Here's an idea. Take this shit to PM, bitches.
The Mastery.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Dark Souls
« Reply #359 on: April 03, 2014, 07:50:35 PM »
So you're saying a strategy that would win a game normally, wouldn't win if it was picked at random instead. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.  ::)

A strategy picked at random would never win against a strategy that actively adapts to its opponent.