8601

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Some perspective on perspective

« on: May 01, 2016, 07:22:42 PM »

Math is a purely logical construction; it concerns what can be deduced from an initial set of propositions. So the only way to refute a mathematical conclusion (i.e., a statement that proposition P can be deduced logically from the initial premises A, B, C,…) is to show a logical error in the proof.

An error in the proof is that parallel lines seem to converge in contradiction of theory.

In the Elements, Euclid defined parallel lines as lines in the same plane that never meet no matter how far they are extended in either direction. So if two lines meet, by definition they are not parallel in Euclid’s sense. Saying “these two parallel lines actually touch, therefore Euclid was wrong,” is like saying “this triangle has four sides, therefore Euclid was wrong about triangles.”

Elucid was wrong about a lot of things. Look up Zeno's Paradox. The Greek model of the universe is flimsy.

Example: You look at straight railroad tracks extending miles into the distance on a flat plain. You observe that what your brain tells you are rail lines in your field of vision meet at the horizon, and conclude that Euclid’s world view is wrong. No, you’ve just misapplied his reasoning. He never said that parallel lines will never appear to meet in your field of vision, no matter how far away they are. Now you look at the lines through a telescope, and the lines you see don’t meet any more. Hmm.

So what you seem be saying is that if lines in your field of vision actually meet as interpreted by your brain, then the lines out there, miles away, actually do meet. But that doesn’t explain why they don’t meet any more when viewed through a telescope. Nor is it consistent with our everyday observation that what looks like an ellipse turns out to be a circle when viewed from a different angle.

If the Greek models are corrupted by illusions at long distances then we must admit that there are illusions present in the subject matter and that the unsatisfactory Greek models cannot be used as a disproof of what a Flat Earth sun might or might not do.

8602

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Some perspective on perspective

« on: May 01, 2016, 07:14:32 PM »

So Tom thinks the math is wrong since if we look at something like railroad tracks and have enough viewing distance they appear to touch.

The math tells us they do not actually touch and a very simple observation will confirm this.  Just watch a train travel down those tracks.  Unless the train shrinks as it gets further away.

Tom why not show us using this faulty math where it says two parallel lines actually touch and not appear to touch do to perspective?

If one looks at the scene, they do touch. It's a factual statement. "Appear" is implied.

According to the mathematical model of the Ancient Greeks, they should never touch.

8603

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Calculating the center of the earth by using just a compass

« on: May 01, 2016, 11:10:44 AM »

I don't think the compass always shows North on the horizontal. I believe the magnetic field lines are vertical when you get closer to the poles due to the configuration of the magnetic field lines on a Flat Earth.

At the latitude of Seattle Washington a normal compass is already scraping the bottom of its tray. In the entire Arctic and Antarctic circle the field lines are vertical and a normal compass is useless. See: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/aug98/899130154.Es.r.html

8604

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Great NASA Conspiracy

« on: May 01, 2016, 10:49:04 AM »

How are they "secretly running the entirety of civilization"?

Look at Setec's post again. He claims a conspiracy across all world governments (and Youtubers).

You mean this? "But back to NASA and the rest of the space agencies (that we commoners are meant to believe are different entities, just as we are meant to believe our governments are controlled by different entities... it's all part of maintaining a divide-and-conquer Hegelian dialectic) - they reveal themselves as frauds in their hoaxy astronaut videos all the time."

I don't see an issue with that statmente. Check out the Chinese space walk:

8605

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Explanation of sun's motion

« on: May 01, 2016, 10:41:40 AM »

You forgot to mention at least Mercury and Venus orbit the sun as is circles above us.

The wiki says says the planets orbit the sun.  I am not sure if that includes all the planets.

Seeing how we never see any other planets pass in front of the sun I am thinking the wiki is talking about just those two.

No-one seems to be able to offer any explanation as why only Mercury and Venus transit the sun.
Not only that but Mercury and Venus are the only planets that show phases almost like the moon.

Those are observable facts, even Captain James Cook knew about the transits of Venus!

Why would all of the planets transit the sun? Mercury and Venus are the closest ones to it.

Why would they never transit? And you forgot about, why are Mercury and Venus are the only planets that show phases almost like the moon?
The other planets do have slight phase changes, only gibbous and full, while Mercury and Venus show the full range of phases. There are other quite significant differences, but the crucial point is what is so completely different about Mercury and Venus.

No problem with the Globe, it's simply that Mercury and Venus are closer to the Sun that the Earth and other planets.

Why do they have to transit? It makes sense that only the closest planets would transit. Obviously Pluto or Uranus aren't going to get in the way of you and the sun.

8606

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Great NASA Conspiracy

« on: May 01, 2016, 08:38:16 AM »

The military does a very good job of keeping plans to their advanced weaponry off the internet, for example. An organization able to keep a secret is not unheard of.

Sure, but the claim wasn't that the secret couldn't be kept. The claim was that the amount of foresight and cooperation required would be super-human. Keeping some technical designs secret for a limited time (until the method becomes common knowledge) is not the same as secretly running the entirety of civilisation.

How are they "secretly running the entirety of civilization"?

8607

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Some perspective on perspective

« on: May 01, 2016, 08:01:10 AM »

Tom at what distance does math no longer work?  1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000 or further?

Just your estimate where math fails to be able to give good estimates or right answers?

I can use that math to estimate ranges when I sail and had accurate results.

I used it recently to determine how much fuel a rounded tank on my boat could hold and the answer I got was verified to be correct when I put fuel in it.

I used it for celestial navigation and determined my position accurately with noon and star sightings.

Throughout my life I have used it in my career and personal life and consistently had it verified since it gave me the right answers that were verified correct when applied to projects, the amount of material needed, how much liquid something could hold, etc.

So when does math no longer work?  I ask because you seem assured you are right and must know at what distances it is no longer accurate.  My experience is that it does return the right answers. An experience I highly doubt that the majority of people would say the opposite.

Did you have evidence of being correct or is the only evidence you offer is if the Greeks were right you are wrong about the shape of the Earth?

It certainly does not work at the vanishing point of railroad tracks, as the math says that they do not touch, when they observably do touch. The observation is evidence that the world model as they described it is wrong.

It certainly does work with the railway tracks. They do not touch, they only appear to touch. How many times do we have to say the same thing?

PROOF:
Imagine the lines in question are railway tracks. They would appear to touch in about 3 miles (at a guess), but quite importantly they clearly do not touch, or that TGV flying past us at 200 mph is going to be in BIG BIG BIG TROUBLE in a bit under one minute! 

Go and have a look here if want to see what might happen Tgv crash, not the same cause.

Yes, I know I posted it before, but sometimes reality takes while to sink in.

Clearly railway tracks DO NOT ACTUALLY MEET, THEY ONLY APPEAR to MEET!

As I posted earlier in many cases we can test whether lines meet, by simply travelling to where they appear to meet.

Of course in some cases we may not be certain that the "lines" are truly parallel. That is no reflection on the geometry.

I'm afraid you must live in a different world to the rest of us, one quite divorced from reality!

If one looks at the scene, they do touch. It's a factual statement. "Appear" is implied.

According to the mathematical model of the Ancient Greeks, they should never touch.

8608

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Great NASA Conspiracy

« on: May 01, 2016, 07:58:39 AM »

So what? What is the relevance?

The military does a very good job of keeping plans to their advanced weaponry off the internet, for example. An organization able to keep a secret is not unheard of.

8609

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Explanation of sun's motion

« on: May 01, 2016, 07:55:34 AM »

You forgot to mention at least Mercury and Venus orbit the sun as is circles above us.

The wiki says says the planets orbit the sun.  I am not sure if that includes all the planets.

Seeing how we never see any other planets pass in front of the sun I am thinking the wiki is talking about just those two.

No-one seems to be able to offer any explanation as why only Mercury and Venus transit the sun.
Not only that but Mercury and Venus are the only planets that show phases almost like the moon.

Those are observable facts, even Captain James Cook knew about the transits of Venus!

Why would all of the planets transit the sun? Mercury and Venus are the closest ones to it.

8610

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Formation of metals in flat earth

« on: May 01, 2016, 07:51:58 AM »

Some believe that precious metals such as gold and platinum come from meteors, and are not naturally formed.

8611

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Great NASA Conspiracy

« on: May 01, 2016, 07:42:50 AM »

Because I have certainly not seen any indications that humans can cooperate on such a scale for a long timeframe without internal fighting.

What makes you think you would be privy to their infighting?

I think the implication is that infighting would result in the conspirators no longer cooperating, and from there to outright conflict among them, in which case the whole conspiracy thing would fall apart.  And THAT, we would see.  If suddenly The Conspiracy was no longer acting in unison to deceive us all about the shape of the world.

A lot of the technologies are subject to military classification. And the military does a very good job of keeping military secrets, secret. You would have a hard time finding classified military secrets online.

8612

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Some perspective on perspective

« on: May 01, 2016, 07:30:18 AM »

It certainly does not work at the vanishing point of railroad tracks, as the math says that they do not touch, when they observably do touch. The observation is evidence that the world model as they described it is wrong.

Only if you cherry pick some observations and ignore others. Euclidean geometry is perfectly in accordance with observation since observation is based on euclidean geometry.

Where have we observed perfect circles?

8613

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Some perspective on perspective

« on: May 01, 2016, 07:15:04 AM »

Tom at what distance does math no longer work?  1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000 or further?

Just your estimate where math fails to be able to give good estimates or right answers?

I can use that math to estimate ranges when I sail and had accurate results.

I used it recently to determine how much fuel a rounded tank on my boat could hold and the answer I got was verified to be correct when I put fuel in it.

I used it for celestial navigation and determined my position accurately with noon and star sightings.

Throughout my life I have used it in my career and personal life and consistently had it verified since it gave me the right answers that were verified correct when applied to projects, the amount of material needed, how much liquid something could hold, etc.

So when does math no longer work?  I ask because you seem assured you are right and must know at what distances it is no longer accurate.  My experience is that it does return the right answers. An experience I highly doubt that the majority of people would say the opposite.

Did you have evidence of being correct or is the only evidence you offer is if the Greeks were right you are wrong about the shape of the Earth?

It certainly does not work at the vanishing point of railroad tracks, as the math says that they do not touch, when they observably do touch. The observation is evidence that the world model as they described it is wrong.

8614

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Some perspective on perspective

« on: May 01, 2016, 07:13:36 AM »

You earlier said "The model the Greeks proposed is clearly wrong when it comes to things that are far away. The simple fact is that the lines touch" and here YOU are simply mistaken! As I have tried to get across with parallel lines the simple fact is that the lines DO NOT touch, they do APPEAR to TOUCH.

If one looks at the scene, they do touch. It's a factual statement. "Appear" is implied.

According to the mathematical model of the Ancient Greeks, they should never touch.

And again "Have you never seen headlights in fog?" Of course I have seen headlights in a fog, but have you seen the sun setting in a perfectly clear sky and appearing exactly the same size (maybe slightly larger - the Ponzo illusion) as it did at midday?

There is no way "atmospheric magnification" can keep the sun exactly the same size all day. Apart from anything else is happens every day. It can appear fuzzy and larger through cloud, but that is obvious when it happens and can happen in any part of the sky.

Several examples were given in the link showing that the enlargement is proportional to distance, causing the body to seem the same size.

8615

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Teachers deserve low pay

« on: May 01, 2016, 01:11:54 AM »

Tom is right. All the computer science professors at University were too incompetent to be coding monkeys after they got their degrees, so they had no choice but to get their doctorates so they could make something of themselves.

A doctorate merely means that you continued through school to get your doctorate. That alone doesn't make you smart or special. For example, apparently those losers at your university were so stupid that all they could do in life after their profound accomplishment was repeat what was told to them to children.

8616

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Some perspective on perspective

« on: May 01, 2016, 12:59:42 AM »

The model the Greeks proposed is clearly wrong when it comes to things that are far away. The simple fact is that the lines touch. There may be varying explanations for why they touch.

It might have something to do with resolution. It might also be more than that. For instance, if we shine a laser beam at the point on railroad tracks where they appear to touch in the distance, the beam will widen and touch both of the tracks at the same time.

Are you really persisting with this? The simple fact is that the lines do not touch, they only appear to touch!

You claim "There may be varying explanations for why they touch." NO, they DO NOT TOUCH, they appear to touch!

Maybe the photons coming from the tracks are hitting your eye in a way that the photons are touching (or getting as close as they physically can to each other). It has not been demonstrated that the effect is due to "lack of resolution". The human eye is incredibly sensitive. Tests have been done where the human eye can detect a single photon in a dark room.

A photon is the physical manifestation of that object at distance, after all. This society seeks to ask and explore such vexing questions, not mindlessly scream that "NO, they DO NOT TOUCH".

8617

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Some perspective on perspective

« on: May 01, 2016, 12:50:03 AM »

Yes, there are multiple reasons why they can appear to touch. Insufficient resolving power of the eye/camera (as has been stated multiple times) is one of them. Decreased clarity due to atmospheric scattering is another. But this is all irrelevant. The basic geometry deals with a perfect world. There is no such thing as perfectly parallel lines, or a perfectly clear atmosphere. But that doesn't mean the entire theory is useless.

If their theory doesn't match observations it means the theory is wrong and must be modified or discarded.

Going by your logic, we should never use math for anything, since nothing can be calculated 100% accurately. Is this what you are arguing for?

If the math can't calculate things far away accurately, what reason is there to use that math for things that are far away?

From http://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset --

Holy Toledo, that page is so full of misinformation... please don't tell me you actually think light sources appear larger the farther you are away from them.

Have you never seen headlights in fog?

8618

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Some perspective on perspective

« on: May 01, 2016, 12:45:58 AM »

Beam divergence occurs because light shines in every direction from a light source. Because it's confined to emit from a one sided light, the "laser beam" will actually be a very narrow cone that spreads out because all of the light in this cone is moving in a straight line. It's not as if the light will start bending midway through transmission. Say instead that I took a single photon and fired it in a direction, never will that photon change direction unless it is reflected or refracted by other outside influence.

The phenomena of beam divergence is certainly a curiosity, particularly because a laser beam is supposed to be straight due to photons between a series of mirrors and a glass amplifier to produce an extremely bright and straight beam of light. It may be argued that some of the photons are not straight, but then the divergence should have a central hot spot as the beam diverges.

8619

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Some perspective on perspective

« on: April 30, 2016, 10:49:11 PM »

The model the Greeks proposed is clearly wrong when it comes to things that are far away. The simple fact is that the lines touch. There may be varying explanations for why they touch.

It might have something to do with resolution. It might also be more than that. For instance, if we shine a laser beam at the point on railroad tracks where they appear to touch in the distance, the beam will widen and touch both of the tracks at the same time.

From http://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset --

Beam Divergence

This phenomenon of enlarging rays is also seen in lasers. Supposedly "straight" rays of light will spread out when shining over long distances.



From the Wikipedia entry on Beam Divergence we read:

    "The beam divergence of an electromagnetic beam is an angular measure of
    the increase in beam diameter or radius with distance from the optical
    aperture or antenna aperture from which the electromagnetic beam emerges."

The light is broadcasted towards the small scene  in the distance and widens appropriately to cover that area it sees. Under a perfect universe the laser beam should only be able to touch only one of the tracks at a time when it reaches the destination. However, the beam is seen to widen significantly, easily covering both tracks and an area of landscape. It seems to suggest that, if the small laser beam diameter can cover a large area, the squishing of the tracks to a single point is more than a resolution limitation of the eye.

8620

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Great NASA Conspiracy

« on: April 30, 2016, 10:31:43 PM »

The only one who would be in on it is the astronaut. The other people researching things like better radar systems could be performing legitimate research for military uses beyond their clearance level. NASA attracts the best and the brightest, and the military has constantly fought Congress to keep NASA alive to research technologies for its uses.

Over the years the military has used NASA as a resource to research hardened electronics, radio technologies, extremely strong light weight metals, robotics, jet engines... NASA has never been about honest science. It was fathered by the military-industrial complex as a show to the world that the US could put ICBMs into orbit and bomb foreign nations at the push of a button.