The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: Toddler Thork on March 05, 2021, 02:19:40 PM

Title: Let's do ships again
Post by: Toddler Thork on March 05, 2021, 02:19:40 PM
Round earthers love a ship on the horizon. What do you all make of this one?

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/11092/production/_117387796_apex_hovering_ship_illusion_01.jpg)

This is from a BBC article here (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-56286719).

Let's pull out the juiciest quotes that when we say them, you all think we are crazy.

A bit of bendy light
Quote from: BBC meteorologist David Braine
BBC meteorologist David Braine said the "superior mirage" occurred because of "special atmospheric conditions that bend light".

A bit of looking out of your window and refusing to believe your own eyes
Quote from: Mr Morris
Mr Morris said he was "stunned" after capturing the picture while looking out to sea from the hamlet of Gillan

Objects appearing both above and below a horizon having absolutely nothing to do with earth being round
Quote from: BBC meteorologist David Braine
"Superior mirages can produce a few different types of images - here a distant ship appears to float high above its actual position, but sometimes an object below the horizon can become visible."


So ... next time I get presented with something like
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvYN532UEAAelIt.jpg)

You are going to receive a short response ... "superior mirages" or in the case of that Toronto image 'inferior mirage". I suggest we cobble a wiki page together on inferior and superior mirages. I'm dead sick of images of mirages on horizons being lauded as proof of roundness.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Longtitube on March 05, 2021, 02:43:06 PM
What fun! Unfortunately it’s not a mirage, it’s flat calm out near the ship and breeze stirring the water nearer the shore. Look carefully at the ship area and you’ll just make out the faint horizon, the real horizon.

Sorry!   ;D
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Toddler Thork on March 05, 2021, 02:48:26 PM
What fun! Unfortunately it’s not a mirage, it’s flat calm out near the ship and breeze stirring the water nearer the shore. Look carefully at the ship area and you’ll just make out the faint horizon, the real horizon.

Sorry!   ;D

I'll ignore BBC meteorologist David Braine then, and just take your word for it instead.  ::)
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Tumeni on March 05, 2021, 03:47:27 PM
I prefer 'doing' ships in front of, or nearer than, the horizon. They tell us more about the shape of the earth.

As regards the OP picture, I suggest anyone/everyone loads it into a photo-editing programme and plays with the levels and colour saturation. I would wager that this will show the true water level next to the ship, regardless of what the BBC's commentary says. I would do it myself, but I'm having issues with my preferred image hosting site at the moment. Maybe later.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: jack44556677 on March 05, 2021, 06:15:56 PM
In my personal working definitions of mirage (1. optical illusion that resembles water typically caused by heating of the air near the surface, 2. a hallucination born of desperation/dehydration), this doesn't really qualify - however I am somewhat surprised to see RE supporters claiming this is NOT a mirage.

I think most consider "mirage" to loosely mean "optical illusion", and this is how the majority come to the conclusion that this qualifies.

@Longitube & Tumeni

I think I am clear on what you are both talking about, but not what you are interpreting is happening to cause the effect.  If it isn't a mirage (I agree) then what is it?  Do you not think the ship is in fact beyond the optical/visible horizon at the time the photo was taken?
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Tumeni on March 05, 2021, 06:33:55 PM
I think I am clear on what you are both talking about, but not what you are interpreting is happening to cause the effect.

Have you tried looking for the horizon by modifying the brightness, contrast et al, with an editing program, as I suggested? If you do, you will see what is happening. The horizon is exactly where you would expect it to be, meeting the hull of the ship.

If it isn't a mirage (I agree) then what is it?

See longitube's explanation. Differing sea conditions close to shore and close to the ship.

Do you not think the ship is in fact beyond the optical/visible horizon at the time the photo was taken?

No.

EDIT - because the horizon, when the photo is enhanced, meets the ship's hull, exactly where you would expect.

EDIT - same effect in this one (https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/813181276461359512/), but because you can see the clouds reflected on the water, it makes the water more obvious. The original post pic has less clouds, so the reflection of the sky on the water is more uniform
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Longtitube on March 05, 2021, 08:49:57 PM
Apart from the BBC explanation (much repeated elsewhere) you might find the local explanation interesting:–

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/ship-floating-clouds-cornwall-leaves-5070329 (https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/ship-floating-clouds-cornwall-leaves-5070329)

And I'll tell you a secret – the BBC don't get it right every time! You may remember another small mistake by a well-known BBC meteorologist: you might call it the Fish Effect.

You might also have seen another similar report from a Scot in recent days, with a similar explanation:–

https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/viral-man-spots-ship-floating-across-sky-heres-what-happened-2383287 (https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/viral-man-spots-ship-floating-across-sky-heres-what-happened-2383287)

I've seen similar things myself in light wind conditions over the years and it always causes a double-take until looking around at other clues solves the puzzle.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: jack44556677 on March 05, 2021, 10:15:10 PM
@tumeni & longitube

How would you alter your understanding/description if you were given/took sufficient measurements to confirm that the ship WAS in fact beyond the visible horizon when this picture was taken?

It is my understanding that pictures like this are not unheard of and they are beyond the horizon.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Tumeni on March 05, 2021, 10:42:38 PM
How would you alter your understanding/description if you were given/took sufficient measurements to confirm that the ship WAS in fact beyond the visible horizon when this picture was taken?

The question is moot without any such measurements. Have you got any? Any suggestion, since the ship will by now have moved on, how they would be obtained?


It is my understanding that pictures like this are not unheard of and they are beyond the horizon.

Would you care to rephrase this? You appear to be suggesting the pictures are beyond the horizon....
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Longtitube on March 05, 2021, 11:00:51 PM
@tumeni & longitube

How would you alter your understanding/description if you were given/took sufficient measurements to confirm that the ship WAS in fact beyond the visible horizon when this picture was taken?

It is my understanding that pictures like this are not unheard of and they are beyond the horizon.

It’s my opinion that the ship is nearer the observer than the horizon in the OP photo, that differing reflections in the water between ship and shore give rise in this case to the optical illusion where the ship appears to be floating in mid-air.

I too have seen examples of superior mirages where the subject of the mirage was beyond the horizon, but long experience leads me in Thork’s example to conclude this ship is relatively near to the photographer.

If someone has other information about this example I’ll happily re-evaluate that, so if you have then I’m all ears.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: stevecanuck on March 06, 2021, 05:30:57 PM

I've seen a "floating ship" at Sharm El Sheikh (southern tip of the Sinai Peninsula). I believe it's an optical illusion similar to seeing "water" far ahead on the highway. When light passes through one medium (air) and impinges on another (water), it both reflects and refracts (like a stick appears to bend when put into a pond). There comes a point called the critical angle, where the angle of incidence is greater than the angle of refraction, and all the light reflects (none refracts anymore) causing a mirror-like effect (on the highway we see this as water). Just as the "water" on the highway is nothing other than total reflection, so the area appearing to make the ship float is beyond the critical angle and is so perfectly mirror-like as to "disappear" from our view. Hence the ship is "floating" "above" it.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: jack44556677 on March 06, 2021, 09:20:31 PM
@steve

Quote
I believe it's an optical illusion similar to seeing "water" far ahead on the highway.

Where is the "false water" (that that mirage causes) in the photo?
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: stevecanuck on March 06, 2021, 09:57:23 PM
@steve

Quote
I believe it's an optical illusion similar to seeing "water" far ahead on the highway.

Where is the "false water" (that that mirage causes) in the photo?

Just in front of the ship, where the greatest angle of incidence occurs.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Grim4Reaper123 on March 10, 2021, 09:40:33 AM
@steve

Quote
I believe it's an optical illusion similar to seeing "water" far ahead on the highway.

Where is the "false water" (that that mirage causes) in the photo?

Just in front of the ship, where the greatest angle of incidence occurs.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Tumeni on March 10, 2021, 01:47:08 PM
What fun! Unfortunately it’s not a mirage, it’s flat calm out near the ship and breeze stirring the water nearer the shore. Look carefully at the ship area and you’ll just make out the faint horizon, the real horizon.

To reinforce this with a few illustrations;

If the water is still, the reflection is clear.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Mount_Hood_reflected_in_Mirror_Lake%2C_Oregon.jpg/220px-Mount_Hood_reflected_in_Mirror_Lake%2C_Oregon.jpg)

If the water is disturbed, it is less clear.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0MvjWH8opK0/maxresdefault.jpg)

In the OP's case, the water is calm near the ship, and simply reflects the sky. Since the reflection is almost the same colour as the sky, it becomes more difficult to tell sky and sea apart. If there are clear white clouds and blue sky, this task is made easier, but an overal greyish-white melange of clouds does not help.

Regardless of whether lands and sea are globe or flat, I would suggest the observer's view from onshore has disturbed water closer to shore, with still water beyond that and nearer to the ship. This leads to the still water reflecting, and looking like, the sky, making it appear as though the ship is in the sky.

Side on, this would be the geometry of it;

(https://i.imgur.com/50mkurE.jpg)

Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: stevecanuck on March 10, 2021, 04:09:21 PM
What fun! Unfortunately it’s not a mirage, it’s flat calm out near the ship and breeze stirring the water nearer the shore. Look carefully at the ship area and you’ll just make out the faint horizon, the real horizon.

To reinforce this with a few illustrations;

If the water is still, the reflection is clear.

If the water is disturbed, it is less clear.

In the OP's case, the water is calm near the ship, and simply reflects the sky. Since the reflection is almost the same colour as the sky, it becomes more difficult to tell sky and sea apart. If there are clear white clouds and blue sky, this task is made easier, but an overal greyish-white melange of clouds does not help.

Regardless of whether lands and sea are globe or flat, I would suggest the observer's view from onshore has disturbed water closer to shore, with still water beyond that and nearer to the ship. This leads to the still water reflecting, and looking like, the sky, making it appear as though the ship is in the sky.

Side on, this would be the geometry of it;


It is not a matter of calm water vs. disturbed water. That only aids the effect; it is not the cause of it. If what you said is true, then a calm pond would be 100% reflective like a mirror, and it isn't. It only happens when the angle of incidence exceeds the critical angle as I explained above. Light that impinges on the surface of the water past the critical angle no longer penetrates the water surface due to it's refractive index. Instead, all of it reflects, which causes the mirror effect. That's why you only see the effect at a distance.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Tumeni on March 10, 2021, 05:44:51 PM
Fair enough.

Crop it a bit, switch it to a negative, and the horizon line jumps out;

(https://i.imgur.com/NmxIMgQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: stevecanuck on March 10, 2021, 11:02:03 PM
Fair enough.

Crop it a bit, switch it to a negative, and the horizon line jumps out;

(https://i.imgur.com/NmxIMgQ.jpg)

Yup. The space between the ship and the apparent horizon is where the critical angle creates a mirror. Btw, this would occur on both a FE or a RE.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: jack44556677 on March 11, 2021, 04:38:44 PM
@stevecanuck

Same question for you then - if the boat was in fact beyond the visible horizon when this was taken, how would that alter your conception / diagrams?
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Tumeni on March 11, 2021, 07:00:57 PM
... if the boat was in fact beyond the visible horizon when this was taken, how would that alter your conception / diagrams?

The OP states it was ON the horizon.

I would suggest it was nearer than the horizon, based on my negative reversal showing the horizon.

From here, it would seem that the next move would be for you to either demonstrate that this particular ship was actually beyond the horizon, or provide a picture of one that is, such that we can discuss it or them.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Shifter on March 11, 2021, 07:22:33 PM
Gotta hand it to the BBC though. All that mental gymnastics to come up with that word salad. Sci fi shows should hire them as writers when they need to come up with techno babble to suspend the audience disbelief
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: stevecanuck on March 11, 2021, 09:14:09 PM
@stevecanuck

Same question for you then - if the boat was in fact beyond the visible horizon when this was taken, how would that alter your conception / diagrams?

Nobody said the boat was beyond the visible horizon. At least I certainly didn't. Just the fact that we can see the boat means it's NOT beyond the visible horizon. Btw, I offered no diagrams.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Tumeni on March 12, 2021, 02:39:34 PM
... if the boat was in fact beyond the visible horizon when this was taken

For clarification/discussion of how you define 'visible horizon';

(https://i.imgur.com/x38baTi.jpg)

There are four boats/ships in this picture. One container ship and a smaller craft to the left, the double-craned ship to the right, and one in the far distance within the green circle. Here's a crop/zoom of that one.

(https://i.imgur.com/k4SnceA.jpg)

I would suggest the 'visible horizon' is as indicated by my text in the first photo, with the green lines. Agree?

I would also suggest that three of the boats/ships are nearer than the horizon, and that only one, the one in the circle, is 'on the horizon'. Agree?
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: jack44556677 on April 12, 2021, 02:41:10 PM
Nobody said the boat was beyond the visible horizon.

That's true.  It was just a hypothetical question.

Quote
Just the fact that we can see the boat means it's NOT beyond the visible horizon.

Not exactly.  There are examples of things that are beyond the visible horizon becoming visible when the conditions are right.

The idea that the ghostly horizon is the real one and the distinct/clear horizon is a "false" one is not typically how this illusion is understood.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: jack44556677 on April 12, 2021, 02:51:20 PM
I would suggest the 'visible horizon' is as indicated by my text in the first photo, with the green lines. Agree?

Certainly. The horizon is where the sky and surface (water in this case) appear to meet.  By "beyond the visible horizon", I mean the distant object (or some part of it) is no longer visible and appears to be "behind" the horizon.

Quote
I would also suggest that three of the boats/ships are nearer than the horizon, and that only one, the one in the circle, is 'on the horizon'. Agree?

Sure.
Title: Re: Let's do ships again
Post by: Tumeni on April 12, 2021, 07:03:41 PM
OK, my elevation, and hence my camera's elevation, was, give or take, 100m above sea level.

The ship with the two cranes is around 50m to the tops of the cranes. Estimating the height from the length/height proportions in the photo, based on the publicly-stated length, yields 44m, but other sources say 58m. In both cases, this is around half of the observer height. (44/100 or 58/100)

Do you agree that the sightline from 100m to the top of a 58m or 44m ship is a downward sightline?

Like Rowbottom's experiment; if he sighted along the flags, his sightline is level, he would look up to the higher flag at D, and look down to the black flag in the middle. Agree?

(https://i.imgur.com/MA0XINO.jpg)