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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2018, 06:21:25 PM »
Von Braun used slavery, torture, and murder to achieve his ends. He was a Colonel in the SS!

Are we supposed to believe that NASA harbored the most evil criminals on earth within their ranks, appointed them to high positions in their governance, and then take their word of scientific achievements without question?

 Before the civil war, the South had appointed governors who encouraged slavery, and treated African American's like they weren't human. Yet, after the war and during Reconstruction, we allowed these governors to return to power, and take away African American rights. Is this not similarly related?

Are you really making an argument that it is fine for Hitler's officers to "return to power" after the war?

They weren't even "in power" in this country. That is like arguing that it would be okay for Dr. Josef Mengele to be made the Surgeon General of the United States.

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Offline ElTrancy

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2018, 06:23:52 PM »
Von Braun used slavery, torture, and murder to achieve his ends. He was a Colonel in the SS!

Are we supposed to believe that NASA harbored the most evil criminals on earth within their ranks, appointed them to high positions in their governance, and then take their word of scientific achievements without question?

 Before the civil war, the South had appointed governors who encouraged slavery, and treated African American's like they weren't human. Yet, after the war and during Reconstruction, we allowed these governors to return to power, and take away African American rights. Is this not similarly related?

Are you really making an argument that it is fine for Hitler's officers to "return to power" after the war?

They weren't even "in power" in this country. That is like arguing that Dr. Josef Mengele should have be made the Suregon General of the United States.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm just relating it to something in history. I'm really making an argument that although he might have served in a certain military, doesn't mean he wanted to fight for that. Do you really think all Nazi's wanted to fight for Hitler?
Please fucking launch a mininuke at me, I've become hopelessly lost.

Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2018, 06:29:04 PM »
Von Braun freely used slavery, torture, and murder to achieve his ends. He was a Colonel in the SS! And yet some argue that he was an innocent rocket scientist?

Are we supposed to believe that NASA, which was created by liars, harbored the most evil criminals on earth within their ranks, appointed them to high positions in their governance, and then take their word of scientific achievements without question?
They only gave him authority as an aerospace engineer. Have you heard of "power corrupts"?
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Offline jcks

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2018, 06:32:52 PM »
The people who created NASA were also caught conducting a secret war. Why should we trust a word from them?

Is that real? Like actually because if so, wow.

Yes. Look into the Pentagon Papers which exposed the secret war of the Vietnam era in which the public and Congress were systematically lied to about the scale of the war and reckless disregard for civilian casualties for over 20 years between 1945 to 1967. The Secret War was administrated by the Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson administration, the same people who were in charge around the time when NASA started making all of its fantastic claims.

From the wiki link --

Quote
President Johnson had decided to expand the war while promising "we seek no wider war" during his 1964 presidential campaign,[8] including plans to bomb North Vietnam well before the 1964 Election. President Johnson had been outspoken against doing so during the election and claimed that his opponent Barry Goldwater was the one that wanted to bomb North Vietnam.

Those same legislators also put Nazi war criminals in the NASA administration.

I don't see the connection.

How does lying about the Vietnam war tie into NASA being a fraud? Is everything that happened during those administrators a lie as well because they covered up this secret war?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2018, 06:52:22 PM »
That's not what I'm saying. I'm just relating it to something in history. I'm really making an argument that although he might have served in a certain military, doesn't mean he wanted to fight for that. Do you really think all Nazi's wanted to fight for Hitler?

There is quite a big difference between a German citizen, a Nazi party member, and an officer of the SS.

They only gave him authority as an aerospace engineer. Have you heard of "power corrupts"?

Von Braun was made a NASA director. Look him up.

I don't see the connection.

How does lying about the Vietnam war tie into NASA being a fraud? Is everything that happened during those administrators a lie as well because they covered up this secret war?

These were not good people. They are not trustworthy. If they are willing to conduct a secret war then it is certainly no leap that they are willing to create some fake space achievements. The credibility is shot.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 11:14:30 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2018, 07:10:04 PM »
They only gave him authority as an aerospace engineer. Have you heard of "power corrupts"?

Von Braun was made a NASA director. Look him up.
Still, he would not have been able to go around gassing Jews on a whim.

Imagine you're interviewing someone. He happens to be a former murderer, but he swears he's learned his lesson and he has an impressive résumé. There are quite a lot of people who would argue that you should hire them.
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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2018, 07:10:31 PM »
That's not what I'm saying. I'm just relating it to something in history. I'm really making an argument that although he might have served in a certain military, doesn't mean he wanted to fight for that. Do you really think all Nazi's wanted to fight for Hitler?

There is quite a big difference between a German citizen, a Nazi party member, and an member of the SS Force.

They only gave him authority as an aerospace engineer. Have you heard of "power corrupts"?

Von Braun was made a NASA director. Look him up.

I don't see the connection.

How does lying about the Vietnam war tie into NASA being a fraud? Is everything that happened during those administrators a lie as well because they covered up this secret war?

These were not good people. They are not trustworthy. If they are willing to conduct a secret war then is is certainly no leap that they are willing to create some fake space achievements. The credibility is shot.
And NASA now?

Offline jcks

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2018, 07:54:13 PM »
I don't see the connection.

How does lying about the Vietnam war tie into NASA being a fraud? Is everything that happened during those administrators a lie as well because they covered up this secret war?

These were not good people. They are not trustworthy. If they are willing to conduct a secret war then is is certainly no leap that they are willing to create some fake space achievements. The credibility is shot.

Which ones exactly were the corrupt individuals? The whole administration?

And if they're credibility was lost after the secret war cover up then is it a stretch to say that 3 administrations straight lied about everything they did?

I see where you're going with "if they lied about x then what else are they willing to cover up?" but I can't see that as an excuse to dismiss everything by default, including incidents that have nothing to do with each other (NASA and the Vietnam war).

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2018, 08:27:43 PM »
I don't see the connection.

How does lying about the Vietnam war tie into NASA being a fraud? Is everything that happened during those administrators a lie as well because they covered up this secret war?

These were not good people. They are not trustworthy. If they are willing to conduct a secret war then is is certainly no leap that they are willing to create some fake space achievements. The credibility is shot.

Which ones exactly were the corrupt individuals? The whole administration?

And if they're credibility was lost after the secret war cover up then is it a stretch to say that 3 administrations straight lied about everything they did?

I see where you're going with "if they lied about x then what else are they willing to cover up?" but I can't see that as an excuse to dismiss everything by default, including incidents that have nothing to do with each other (NASA and the Vietnam war).

What do you mean the Vietnam War had nothing to do with NASA? NASA was created as a direct consequence of the Cold War. After WWII there was a race to space between the US and USSR. The goal was to get weapons like ICBMs into earth orbit so that the range for total annihilation was unlimited. The US and USSR were in a race for the ability to nuke each other at the press of a button.

The Vietnam War and the Cold War were all part of the same conflict. Eisenhower believed that if one country fell into communism, more noncommunist countries would fall as well. When the Soviet Union bribed Vietnam to turn communist the US feared for the worse and decided to enter the war.

The Vietnam War was a Proxy War between the USA and USSR. The Soviets were allies with the Vietnamese, and so it was their duty to protect them. The Soviets were supplying Vietnam with ammunition, weapons, food, and support.

While the Vietnam War was the physical battle, the Cold War was the technological battle between the US and USSR behind the scenes, in which each country would try to "one up" each other with technological claims of superiority.

It should be noted that Russia went around parading fake ICBMs for decades:

Quote
Moscow paraded dummy missiles

MANY OF the huge strategic missiles displayed in Red Square parades during the Soviet era were only dummies, but they scared the West into an expensive response, a Russian magazine reported yesterday.

One such fake, GR-1, an acronym for Global Missile, showed during a parade in 1965, prompted the United States to build an anti- missile defence system worth billions of dollars, said the weekly Vlast (Power). In fact, the Soviets had abandoned the GR-1 project long before the parade.

Another two mobile ballistic missiles shown in the same parade were also fakes, their test launches having been a failure, the magazine said. "Foreign military attaches were scared to death, triggering panic in Nato headquarters," it said. "A huge international uproar followed, and only those who prepared this demonstration knew they were dummies." One of the authors of the Vlast report worked as a missile engineer and said he had worked on a support system for one of the fake missiles to prevent it from bouncing on the stone-paved Red Square in Moscow. The magazine said the Soviet leader Nikita Krushchev first bluffed the West with the legend of powerful Russian missiles, saying the Soviet Union was making them "like sausage". "Such comparison sounded ambiguous for the Soviet people, because the sausage was in deficit, but it duly impressed foreigners," it said. At the time of Krushchev's comment, the Soviets had only four intercontinental ballistic missiles on duty, while the United States had 60. "The myth about the Soviet missile superiority was convenient for both the Soviet leadership and the American military industrial complex, which was getting huge contracts," the magazine said.

Another article on the subject:

http://www.cdi.org/russia/may1499.html#6

There's also a book about their fake ICBM programs:

« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 08:35:42 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2018, 08:40:45 PM »
I don't see the connection.

How does lying about the Vietnam war tie into NASA being a fraud? Is everything that happened during those administrators a lie as well because they covered up this secret war?

These were not good people. They are not trustworthy. If they are willing to conduct a secret war then is is certainly no leap that they are willing to create some fake space achievements. The credibility is shot.

Which ones exactly were the corrupt individuals? The whole administration?

And if they're credibility was lost after the secret war cover up then is it a stretch to say that 3 administrations straight lied about everything they did?

I see where you're going with "if they lied about x then what else are they willing to cover up?" but I can't see that as an excuse to dismiss everything by default, including incidents that have nothing to do with each other (NASA and the Vietnam war).

What do you mean the Vietnam War had nothing to do with NASA? NASA was created as a direct consequence of the Cold War. After WWII there was a race to space between the US and USSR. The goal was to get weapons like ICBMs into earth orbit so that the range for total annihilation was unlimited. The US and USSR were in a race for the ability to nuke each other at the press of a button.

The Vietnam War and the Cold War were all part of the same conflict. Eisenhower believed that if one country fell into communism, more noncommunist countries would fall as well. When the Soviet Union bribed Vietnam to turn communist the US feared for the worse and decided to enter the war.

The Vietnam War was a Proxy War between the USA and USSR. The Soviets were allies with the Vietnamese, and so it was their duty to protect them. The Soviets were supplying Vietnam with ammunition, weapons, food, and support.

While the Vietnam War was the physical battle, the Cold War was the technological battle between the US and USSR behind the scenes, in which each country would try to "one up" each other with technological claims of superiority.

It should be noted that Russia went around parading fake ICBMs for decades:

Quote
Moscow paraded dummy missiles

MANY OF the huge strategic missiles displayed in Red Square parades during the Soviet era were only dummies, but they scared the West into an expensive response, a Russian magazine reported yesterday.

One such fake, GR-1, an acronym for Global Missile, showed during a parade in 1965, prompted the United States to build an anti- missile defence system worth billions of dollars, said the weekly Vlast (Power). In fact, the Soviets had abandoned the GR-1 project long before the parade.

Another two mobile ballistic missiles shown in the same parade were also fakes, their test launches having been a failure, the magazine said. "Foreign military attaches were scared to death, triggering panic in Nato headquarters," it said. "A huge international uproar followed, and only those who prepared this demonstration knew they were dummies." One of the authors of the Vlast report worked as a missile engineer and said he had worked on a support system for one of the fake missiles to prevent it from bouncing on the stone-paved Red Square in Moscow. The magazine said the Soviet leader Nikita Krushchev first bluffed the West with the legend of powerful Russian missiles, saying the Soviet Union was making them "like sausage". "Such comparison sounded ambiguous for the Soviet people, because the sausage was in deficit, but it duly impressed foreigners," it said. At the time of Krushchev's comment, the Soviets had only four intercontinental ballistic missiles on duty, while the United States had 60. "The myth about the Soviet missile superiority was convenient for both the Soviet leadership and the American military industrial complex, which was getting huge contracts," the magazine said.

Another article on the subject:

http://www.cdi.org/russia/may1499.html#6

There's also a book about their fake ICBM programs:


I have to say Tom, all this does is help cement the idea that things are actually in space. The fallout from the collapse of the USSR, the rivalry between the two. Neither side during that period was 'debunked' on going into space or orbit. Both sides had all the reason in the world to show they hadn't managed their claims. Hell, the US even after the collapse/fall had more than enough reason (if it was found to be so) to show how Russia and Russians never got into space. How could it have hurt their credibility at all in that time period? To me at least everything you've presented here points away from a now global conspiracy of space flight.

Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2018, 08:43:59 PM »
And if they're credibility was lost after the secret war cover up then is it a stretch to say that 3 administrations straight lied about everything they did?
Not just 3 administrations, but 9 administrations: Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Donald Trump have all maintained that the Apollo program was not a hoax.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2018, 08:56:02 PM »
I have to say Tom, all this does is help cement the idea that things are actually in space. The fallout from the collapse of the USSR, the rivalry between the two. Neither side during that period was 'debunked' on going into space or orbit. Both sides had all the reason in the world to show they hadn't managed their claims. Hell, the US even after the collapse/fall had more than enough reason (if it was found to be so) to show how Russia and Russians never got into space. How could it have hurt their credibility at all in that time period? To me at least everything you've presented here points away from a now global conspiracy of space flight.

The countries did cast doubt and yell "fake!" after each achievement at the time. It took a long time for NASA to accept Russia's claim of the first man in space. Russian officials are still yelling "fake!"

You have no idea what you are talking about. What are you are claiming what would happen has happened. The world just ignored it.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 09:10:02 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2018, 09:00:36 PM »
These were not good people. They are not trustworthy. If they are willing to conduct a secret war then it is certainly no leap that they are willing to create some fake space achievements.
And yet, you can see the ISS from earth.
7 tourists have paid to visit it.
GPS works.
Satellite TV works.
etc. etc.

And there are a bunch of countries who have put things in space.

By all accounts Newton was a bit of an arse, often claiming credit for things which he at best co-invented. Doesn't mean his ideas are without merit.
I know you have to clutch at any straws you can but it's a bit of a leap from "NASA was formed by some bad dudes" to "All space travel has been faked for the last 60+ years"
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2018, 09:07:45 PM »
These were not good people. They are not trustworthy. If they are willing to conduct a secret war then it is certainly no leap that they are willing to create some fake space achievements.
And yet, you can see the ISS from earth.
7 tourists have paid to visit it.
GPS works.
Satellite TV works.
etc. etc.

And there are a bunch of countries who have put things in space.

By all accounts Newton was a bit of an arse, often claiming credit for things which he at best co-invented. Doesn't mean his ideas are without merit.
I know you have to clutch at any straws you can but it's a bit of a leap from "NASA was formed by some bad dudes" to "All space travel has been faked for the last 60+ years"

I believe you mean: 

"I can see a little dot for a brief time in the sky"
"7 tourists I have never met, and many of which who are investors or officers of space aerospace contractors, went into space"
"GPS and Satellite TV technologies, of which I do not have direct knowledge of, works"

Hardly convincing or conclusive.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 09:18:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2018, 09:13:22 PM »
I have to say Tom, all this does is help cement the idea that things are actually in space. The fallout from the collapse of the USSR, the rivalry between the two. Neither side during that period was 'debunked' on going into space or orbit. Both sides had all the reason in the world to show they hadn't managed their claims. Hell, the US even after the collapse/fall had more than enough reason (if it was found to be so) to show how Russia and Russians never got into space. How could it have hurt their credibility at all in that time period? To me at least everything you've presented here points away from a now global conspiracy of space flight.

The countries did cast doubt and yell "fake!" after each achievement at the time. It took a long time for NASA to accept Russia's claim of the first man in space. Russian officials are still yelling "fake!"

You have no idea what you are talking about. What are you are claiming that would happen has happened. The world just ignored it.
I get the feeling that NASA denied the Soviets' achievement because it conflicted with the worldview of capitalism always being better, not on any reasonable grounds.

If the USSR had any conclusive proof that the Moon landings were faked, then they would have given said evidence a spot on the front page. They didn't.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2018, 09:27:19 PM »
I have to say Tom, all this does is help cement the idea that things are actually in space. The fallout from the collapse of the USSR, the rivalry between the two. Neither side during that period was 'debunked' on going into space or orbit. Both sides had all the reason in the world to show they hadn't managed their claims. Hell, the US even after the collapse/fall had more than enough reason (if it was found to be so) to show how Russia and Russians never got into space. How could it have hurt their credibility at all in that time period? To me at least everything you've presented here points away from a now global conspiracy of space flight.

The countries did cast doubt and yell "fake!" after each achievement at the time. It took a long time for NASA to accept Russia's claim of the first man in space. Russian officials are still yelling "fake!"

You have no idea what you are talking about. What are you are claiming that would happen has happened. The world just ignored it.
I get the feeling that NASA denied the Soviets' achievement because it conflicted with the worldview of capitalism always being better, not on any reasonable grounds.

If the USSR had any conclusive proof that the Moon landings were faked, then they would have given said evidence a spot on the front page. They didn't.

How would they have "conclusive evidence"? Did you think that the USSR had solar-system-ranging radar systems or spy cameras located around the moon or something?

You are just making up the USSR's actual technological capability in your head. It is pretty ridiculous to assert that "they would know" right after reading an article admitting that many of their ICBM technologies were fake.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2018, 09:36:39 PM »
How would they have "conclusive evidence"? Did you think that the USSR had solar-system-ranging radar systems or spy cameras located around the moon or something?

You are just making up the USSR's actual technological capability in your head. It is pretty ridiculous to assert that "they would know" right after reading an article admitting that many of their ICBM technologies were fake.

The UK had the capability to track Apollo craft all the way to the lunar surface, but lacked any ability to launch anything, so considering the Russians did have the launch capability ....
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Offline AATW

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2018, 09:38:24 PM »
"I can see a little dot for a brief time in the sky"
With binoculars, yes. With a good telescope...



http://www.neatorama.com/2011/02/28/space-shuttle-docking-with-space-station-as-seen-from-earth/

Quote
7 tourists I have never met, and many of which who are investors or officers of space aerospace contractors, went into space

You're right. I've never met any of them but I have no idea what their reason to lie would be.
The last dude who did it is the co-founder of Cirque du Soleil, what's his stake in this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tourism#List_of_flown_space_tourists

None of them were sent to the ISS by NASA by the way...

Quote
Hardly convincing or conclusive.

Not if you want to keep clutching at those straws, I guess...
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2018, 09:48:51 PM »
How would they have "conclusive evidence"? Did you think that the USSR had solar-system-ranging radar systems or spy cameras located around the moon or something?

You are just making up the USSR's actual technological capability in your head. It is pretty ridiculous to assert that "they would know" right after reading an article admitting that many of their ICBM technologies were fake.

The UK had the capability to track Apollo craft all the way to the lunar surface, but lacked any ability to launch anything, so considering the Russians did have the launch capability ....

The Cold War was a war of lies. We have seen that that the USSR's missiles were phony. Why should we assume that the rest of the USSR's claims were perfectly true? After lying so much, what credibility do they have?

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Offline AATW

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Re: What Makes conspiracy Theorists believe.
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2018, 09:57:04 PM »
Russian officials are still yelling "fake!"
Maybe you have to be British to understand how shaky that ground is, quoting a Daily Mail article - the are notorious over here for inaccuracy and twisting of facts.

The headline:
Quote
Russia suggests America has NEVER landed on the moon

Then in the article

Quote
According to the translation in the Moscow Times, Mr Markin claimed Russia were ‘not contending that they did not fly (to the moon) and simply made a film about it.'

(my emphasis)
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"