Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2018, 03:23:01 AM »
All you have to do is read your own crap.

"Direct p-wave shadow zone"

does not equal

"refracted p-wave shadow zone"

and the line is "reflected p-waves".

Which one of us is the moron?

Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2018, 04:13:31 PM »
I can't be a round earther on this forum. This thread shows why.

I get it Baby Thork.  You've convinced me.
I'll take it slow, but this is my pivot point.
The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.

Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2018, 05:13:25 PM »
I can't be a round earther on this forum. This thread shows why.

I get it Baby Thork.  You've convinced me.
I'll take it slow, but this is my pivot point.

I don't get it. Thork is the one who can't read graphs, and then flips the table in frustration, saying I can't read graphs. Am I missing something?

A p-wave shadow zone is not a pp-wave shadow zone.


Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2018, 05:44:18 PM »
I don't get it. Thork is the one who can't read graphs, and then flips the table in frustration, saying I can't read graphs. Am I missing something?

A p-wave shadow zone is not a pp-wave shadow zone.

My advice is to not worry about the p-waves and s-waves and let this thread disappear into oblivion.  Just let it go.  I agree that Baby Thork is a frustrating guy, but he is right about one thing... 

From the time I discovered tfes.org I have loved it.  This site is fantastic.  It is time for me to assist in making sure new comers have the chance to enjoy it as much as I have.  Thanks Thork.
The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.

*

Offline Dr David Thork

  • *
  • Posts: 5188
  • https://onlyfans.com/thork
    • View Profile
Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2018, 07:07:47 PM »
I don't get it. Thork is the one who can't read graphs, and then flips the table in frustration, saying I can't read graphs. Am I missing something?

A p-wave shadow zone is not a pp-wave shadow zone.

My advice is to not worry about the p-waves and s-waves and let this thread disappear into oblivion.  Just let it go.  I agree that Baby Thork is a frustrating guy, but he is right about one thing... 

From the time I discovered tfes.org I have loved it.  This site is fantastic.  It is time for me to assist in making sure new comers have the chance to enjoy it as much as I have.  Thanks Thork.
I salute you, sir. Good luck.


@douglips .... all the waves refract ... s-waves and p-waves - you can see they all bend. I don't care about the s-waves ... I want to know why I get p-waves in the shadow zone.



I absolutely shouldn't. That's what a shadow zone is.
Rate this post.      👍 6     👎 1

Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2018, 09:33:51 PM »
You do not get p-waves, you get pp-waves - it says it right in your graph key.

A pp-wave is a refection of a p-wave - the reflection restarts the angle from the point of reflection, so you have no shadow zone for them.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 10:05:47 PM by douglips »

*

Offline Dr David Thork

  • *
  • Posts: 5188
  • https://onlyfans.com/thork
    • View Profile
Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2018, 06:14:24 PM »
Doug, look at the diagram.

On the right hand side between 0 and 103 degrees you get p-waves. ... it is written in purple.
Between 142 degrees and 180 degrees you get refracted p-waves. You don't get any p-waves in the shadow zone. Its not possible. No p-wave can enter that area ... not a p-wave, not a pp-wave, no type of primary wave can enter.

Look, here is a wiki page telling you ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-wave#P-wave_shadow_zone

no p-waves ... shadow zone ... why am i not seeing the shadow zone in the graph. If you can't understand why p-waves have a shadow zone, there is no point in trying to work out why the graph might be reporting them despite their not being there.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-wave#P-wave_shadow_zone
As a result, there is a P-wave "shadow zone" between 103° and 142°[5] from the earthquake's focus, where the initial P-waves are not registered on seismometers.
Not registered on seismometers. So, I want to see on the graph primary wave readings from 0-103 and some kind of p-waves from 142-180 degrees. I don't want any from 103-142. But that's not what I am seeing. Why Doug? Why? And if you don't know, let someone else have a go. Don't just keep saying I shouldn't have a shadow zone ... I should.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 06:16:02 PM by Baby Thork »
Rate this post.      👍 6     👎 1

Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2018, 11:50:14 PM »
I have quoted your post, and emphasized the words in your own post that you are either choosing to ignore, or don't understand.

No p-wave can enter that area ... not a p-wave, not a pp-wave, no type of primary wave can enter.

Look, here is a wiki page telling you ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-wave#P-wave_shadow_zone

no p-waves ... shadow zone ... why am i not seeing the shadow zone in the graph. If you can't understand why p-waves have a shadow zone, there is no point in trying to work out why the graph might be reporting them despite their not being there.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-wave#P-wave_shadow_zone
As a result, there is a P-wave "shadow zone" between 103° and 142°[5] from the earthquake's focus, where the initial P-waves are not registered on seismometers.
Not registered on seismometers. So, I want to see on the graph primary wave readings from 0-103 and some kind of p-waves from 142-180 degrees. I don't want any from 103-142. But that's not what I am seeing. Why Doug? Why? And if you don't know, let someone else have a go. Don't just keep saying I shouldn't have a shadow zone ... I should.
You have conflated P-waves with PP-waves. You absolutely don't get P-waves in the shadowzone, and you absolutely DO get PP-waves in the shadow zone - a PP wave is a P wave that has reflected off the surface. Do you see how it says "initial P-waves"? A PP-wave is reflected and is therefore not "initial".

Here again is the key to your diagram, with the relevant lines emphasized by me, and the definition of P-waves and PP-waves extra-extra-emphasized by me. You really don't have any excuse for not understanding that a PP-wave is not a direct P-wave.

Quote
KEY
green marks show the arrival of direct P-waves
orange marks show the arrival of direct S-waves
red marks show the arrival of PP-waves (reflected at the surface)
yellow marks show the arrival of ScS-waves (reflected at the boundary with the outer core)
pink marks show the arrival of SS-waves (reflected at the surface)

From this PDF file: https://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/pi/Monitoring/Doc/Srr_2006/GUIDE.PDF
Here's a diagram showing SS waves reflecting off the surface. The PP waves follow similar paths and therefore CAN GO ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET. No shadow zones for PP-waves.

https://imgur.com/a/uVoeFYW?

*

Offline Dr David Thork

  • *
  • Posts: 5188
  • https://onlyfans.com/thork
    • View Profile
Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2018, 11:54:57 PM »
I get this, now show me on the graph how this translates. I have all kinds of p-waves. Many in my shadow zone. Why? None should be in my shadow zone. This isn't a trick question. Why are my P waves showing up in a place they cannot show up, according to the theory. This has taken 2 pages already. Its a very simple question.


Ask yourself ... what is the shadow zone? What type of waves don't enter? Where are these on the graph? Why is it even called a shadow zone if I get waves inside there?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 11:58:35 PM by Baby Thork »
Rate this post.      👍 6     👎 1

Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2018, 12:18:17 AM »
a) The shadow zone is only for direct P-waves, as you have shown in all your quotes so far.
b) The only line on your graph that is direct P-waves is the green marks. Look at your key, and see that it says green marks are direct P-waves.
c) All other waves you see in the shadow zone are not direct P-waves. Look at your key, The types of waves you see in the shadow zone are PP, SS, and PKIKP (not originally quoted by you in your key, but in the graphic)

A PP-wave is a P-wave that is reflected off of a point on the surface at some distance from the epicenter. The new PP-wave radiates from that new reflection point.

Look, if you are casting a shadow in the sunlight, and then someone comes along and aims a reflector to shine sunlight into your shadow, this wouldn't be confusing, would it? Would you ask how sunlight can possibly get into your shadow? The reflected waves are coming from where they are reflected from. If the original P-wave goes to, say, 90 degrees and then is reflected as a PP-wave, the new PP-wave can go another 90 degrees again FROM THE POINT IT WAS REFLECTED AT.

You seemed to understand this in your OP, so it kind of feels like you are deliberately pretending to misunderstand now. From your OP:
Quote
Note how the yellow and orange s-waves and the green primary p-waves (not reflected) both terminate at 103 degrees as predicted by the round earth model.

Why when you made your OP did you understand the difference between primary p-waves and reflected pp-waves and you don't understand it now?

*

Offline Dr David Thork

  • *
  • Posts: 5188
  • https://onlyfans.com/thork
    • View Profile
Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2018, 12:37:16 AM »
a) perfect
b) ... so where are the reports from 142 degrees to 180 degrees on the green line?

Answer (because you are taking all year) ... those are the cyan lines. PKiKP lines.



Soooooo ... why am I getting P-waves (the PKIKP in cyan) between 103 and 142 degrees when the theory says I shouldn't?
Rate this post.      👍 6     👎 1

Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2018, 01:16:00 AM »
a) perfect
b) ... so where are the reports from 142 degrees to 180 degrees on the green line?

Answer (because you are taking all year) ... those are the cyan lines. PKiKP lines.



Soooooo ... why am I getting P-waves (the PKIKP in cyan) between 103 and 142 degrees when the theory says I shouldn't?

What theory says you shouldn't get those? The diagram you show with a shadow zone between 103 and 142 is referring specifically to "refracted P-waves". Those are PKP waves, and do not appear to be on your graph at all.

The cyan lines in your graph are PKIKP lines, which are different from PKP lines. The PDF I linked before explains it pretty well, here it is again:
https://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/pi/Monitoring/Doc/Srr_2006/GUIDE.PDF

Specifically, here are the "refracted P-waves" which are PKP waves:
https://imgur.com/a/oYsDLFN



Here are the PKIKP waves:


I think I see the cause of our misunderstanding. In your original post, the shadow zone diagram says "refracted P-waves". But, all the words you posted were specifically for "direct" or "initial" P-waves. When you did mention "refracted" p-waves, you pointed to the red line which is NOT refracted p-waves. I was unable to unravel what you were talking about.

Now that you have pointed at the cyan lines, it's clear: Those lines do not correspond to what your shadow diagram refers to as "refracted P-waves" for purposes of the shadow zone. Cyan refers to the EVEN MORE REFRACTED waves, PKIKP, which are visible over a much broader range.