Re: Trump
« Reply #9640 on: July 07, 2022, 08:24:56 AM »
But he says something about things that actually happened, so he's basically telling the truth. 🤷‍♂️
This by the way. I think Trump - and Boris - lie in a different way from the media.
The media twist and misrepresent things, sure. But Boris and Trump will tell you it's sunny while walking around holding an umbrella in a thunderstorm. It's a completely different level of lying, it's all very 1984 and I find it deeply troubling.

My "favourite" (if that's the right word) Boris example was when he went to a hospital for a photo-op and was accosted by a parent of a patient there. The man lambasted Boris about the lack of resources and for coming to the hospital for a photo-op. Boris denied it and said something along the lines of "there are no press here" in front of the press who were recording the encounter. ???
It's all utterly bizarre. I don't think many mainstream sources are quite that blatant in their lies - I'm excluding the real gutter press who will just make stuff up.

Looks like Boris will finally go today, it's genuinely ridiculous how long he's hung on. He hasn't quite gone full Trump, but it was the closest we've come in my lifetime.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9641 on: July 08, 2022, 09:53:54 AM »


A random person from youtube whose old.
Solid proof Tom is wrong.  Because I'm sure this old man who was politically active in the 70s is older than Tom and therefore has direct experience Tom lacks.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9642 on: July 08, 2022, 01:04:43 PM »
My "favourite" (if that's the right word) Boris example was when he went to a hospital for a photo-op and was accosted by a parent of a patient there. The man lambasted Boris about the lack of resources and for coming to the hospital for a photo-op. Boris denied it and said something along the lines of "there are no press here" in front of the press who were recording the encounter. ???

Your "favourite" example is actually an embarrassing display of your tendency to assume things which suit you without considering that you might be wrong and that you need to research your positions. Obviously "there are no press here" can mean a lot of things. Namely that they weren't acting as press. It's not too hard to find that this was the case:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-what-did-boris-johnson-mean-when-he-said-there-were-no-press-at-his-hospital-visit

    Omar Salem was waiting for his daughter to be treated in a paediatric ward in Whipps Cross hospital in northeast London when he confronted the Prime Minister, saying: “The NHS is being destroyed… it’s being destroyed and now you come here for a press opportunity.”

    Mr Johnson replied: “Well actually, there’s no press here.”

    Gesticulating at the members of the media standing nearby, Mr Salem said: “What do you mean, there’s no press here? Who are these people?”

    Mr Johnson appeared to start an attempted explanation, saying: “They’re… they’re here…” before trailing off.

    Who was at the event?

    Downing Street invited a photographer and a video crew from the Press Association – the UK’s news agency of record – to the event, as well as a “pool” video crew, consisting of a ​camera operator and broadcast journalist.

    The long-established pool system involves the major broadcasters (including ITN, the makers of Channel 4 News) taking it in turns to send cameras and journalists to events that we know about in advance.

    Footage shot by the pool camera crew is then made available to other members of the pool for use in their own broadcasts.

    Often, the pool team agrees to go to the event on the understanding that a reporter will get the chance to ask questions of politicians like Boris Johnson.

    Obviously, if only one reporter attends, that limits the scope of the questions, but the questions aren’t pre-arranged with the government and there’s no restriction on what journalists can ask.

    On this occasion, the broadcasters who run the pool were told that they would be able to film Mr Johnson walking around the hospital visit, but no arrangements were made to record an interview the Prime Minister, or ask him questions.

    The pool team agreed to go on this understanding. Apart from the Press Association, it appears that no other reporters from newspapers or other news organisations attended.

    This may have been what Mr Johnson had in mind when he said there were “no press” at the event.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 01:19:10 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trump
« Reply #9643 on: July 08, 2022, 01:13:10 PM »
Obviously "there are no press here" can mean a lot of things.
lol

Tom's gotta Tom.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9644 on: July 08, 2022, 01:26:31 PM »
Obviously "there are no press here" can mean a lot of things.
lol

Tom's gotta Tom.

That is some golden shit right there lol
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9645 on: July 08, 2022, 01:51:48 PM »
Obviously "there are no press here" can mean a lot of things.
lol

Tom's gotta Tom.

Yes, you thought Boris Johnson was wrong, but you yourself were wrong. "There are no press here" meant that they were not acting as press. A small crew from the UK's news agency of record were invited with the understanding that they would just be recording him walking around the hospital.

The implication behind the accusation of bringing press was that there was no consideration given to bringing journalists into a hospital, but there was. There was a pre-arranged agreement as not to disturb the sanctity of the hospital.

You went off and assumed that Johnson made up an abject lie without considering that you were missing something. This is typical of you to assume and believe things based on ignorance and without research.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 02:28:38 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9646 on: July 08, 2022, 02:15:55 PM »
Ignoring the "By 'press' BoJo meant something else than the contextually obvious meaning of 'press'" argument for a moment: it's actually quite likely that he didn't notice the press around him. Don't forget - this is the guy that excused himself out of an interview, entered a walk-in fridge, and closed the door behind him. It's also the guy who grabbed someone's phone and put it in his pocket because he didn't want to address the picture he was being shown on said phone. Politics aside, his awareness of his own surroundings is clearly not always all there.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Iceman

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9647 on: July 08, 2022, 02:18:47 PM »
Arguing semantics to try to goad people into a debate about bringing cameras into a hospital. Sounds fun

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9648 on: July 08, 2022, 02:43:08 PM »


A random person from youtube whose old.
Solid proof Tom is wrong.  Because I'm sure this old man who was politically active in the 70s is older than Tom and therefore has direct experience Tom lacks.

This is nonsense.

He says that in the 1970's there were violent leftists and peaceful leftists. He says he was one of the peaceful leftists near the center.

Text mine:



By this metric the people on the right who are an equal distance from the center from the violent leftists would be violent people on the right.

Then, when he tries to illustrates violent right he ridiculously expands the graph way off to the right, without considering that the violent right should be an equal distance from the center from the violent left:

« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 02:57:05 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trump
« Reply #9649 on: July 08, 2022, 02:48:19 PM »
Ignoring the "By 'press' BoJo meant something else than the contextually obvious meaning of 'press'" argument for a moment: it's actually quite likely that he didn't notice the press around him. Don't forget - this is the guy that excused himself out of an interview, entered a walk-in fridge, and closed the door behind him. It's also the guy who grabbed someone's phone and put it in his pocket because he didn't want to address the picture he was being shown on said phone. Politics aside, his awareness of his own surroundings is clearly not always all there.
A lot of that is true. But it's also true that Boris is a serial liar who wouldn't know the truth if it smacked him round the chops.
So the idea that he was just lying is plausible. Because that's what he does. Him and Trump have that in common.
They don't lie in the same way other politicians lie, by twisting and misrepresenting facts. They will literally tell you it's sunny while holding an umbrella to shield them from the raging storm.
This from his ex-boss:

Quote
I have known Johnson since the 1980s, when I edited the Daily Telegraph and he was our flamboyant Brussels correspondent. I have argued for a decade that, while he is a brilliant entertainer who made a popular maître d’ for London as its mayor, he is unfit for national office, because it seems he cares for no interest save his own fame and gratification.
We can’t predict what a Johnson government will do, because its prospective leader has not got around to thinking about this. But his premiership will almost certainly reveal a contempt for rules, precedent, order and stability.
Johnson would not recognise truth, whether about his private or political life, if confronted by it in an identity parade. In a commonplace book the other day, I came across an observation made in 1750 by a contemporary savant, Bishop Berkeley: “It is impossible that a man who is false to his friends and neighbours should be true to the public.” Almost the only people who think Johnson a nice guy are those who do not know him.
I have a hunch that Johnson will come to regret securing the prize for which he has struggled so long, because the experience of the premiership will lay bare his absolute unfitness for it.

That was all written before Johnson assumed the roll of PM.
Partygate and the Pincher thing both followed the same story arc. As every lie was uncovered it was just replaced by the next layer of lies.
First he wasn't aware of any allegation against Pincher.
Then it was he wasn't aware of any specific allegation against Pincher.
And finally it was he simply forgot that he'd been briefed about it.

He's not just another bad politician, he's rotten to the core and good riddance.
There are lots of similarities between him and Trump but there are differences too. Boris is much smarter and knowing. His good old bumbling Boris thing is a persona.
I don't think what Trump does is a persona, he's not smart enough to create one. I reckon it's just how he is.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9650 on: July 08, 2022, 03:18:28 PM »
Ignoring the "By 'press' BoJo meant something else than the contextually obvious meaning of 'press'" argument for a moment: it's actually quite likely that he didn't notice the press around him. Don't forget - this is the guy that excused himself out of an interview, entered a walk-in fridge, and closed the door behind him.

This is clearly fake news. He walked into a cooled Milk warehouse, where he had intended to go from the start.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/11/boris-johnson-hides-in-fridge-to-avoid-piers-morgan-interview

The title of this article is: "Boris Johnson 'hides in a fridge' to avoid Piers Morgan interview"

But the text in the article says that this was where he always intended to go. He was making a state visit to a local business:

"The prime minister was ambushed by the Good Morning Britain producer, Jonathan Swain, during a pre-dawn visit to Modern Milkman, a business in the Tory-held constituency of Pudsey, in Yorkshire."

The embedded video shows that he is not walking into a fridge or a freezer specifically, but is walking into a warehouse of a Milk company with his staff:



Johnson later came out with a crate of milk bottles and gave an interview:

    Conservative sources subsequently insisted that Johnson was “categorically not hiding” in the fridge, from which Johnson emerged carrying a crate of milk bottles – but instead his aides were taking a moment to prep the PM for a separate, pre-agreed interview.

    During the exchange, Swain asked if Johnson would come on the programme and “deliver on your promise to talk to Piers and Susanna. We’re ready to go, we’re live on ITV right now. Prime minister, we have an earpiece in my pocket. You are more than welcome to come on.”

So this is clearly just partisan BS. An interview was pre-arranged and he did give it. The complaint is that he did not not want to give an impromptu interview when he was ambushed on his way into a Milk business where he had always intended to go into from the start. He walked into the business and it was called "hiding from reporters in a refrigerator".  ::)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 04:00:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trump
« Reply #9651 on: July 08, 2022, 04:02:13 PM »
Johnson later came out with a crate of milk bottles and gave an interview
Did he?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9652 on: July 08, 2022, 04:08:28 PM »
Yes.

https://archive.ph/BaRcY

"When Swain presses the prime minister, stating he was live on the show, Johnson replied “I’ll be with you in a second” and walked off, before Piers exclaims “he’s gone into the fridge”. Johnson walks inside a fridge stacked with milk bottles with his aides. One person can be heard saying: “It’s a bunker.”

Conservative sources subsequently insisted that Johnson was “categorically not hiding” in the fridge, from which Johnson emerged carrying a crate of milk bottles – but instead his aides were taking a moment to prep the PM for a separate, pre-agreed interview.

During the exchange, Swain asked if Johnson would come on the programme and “deliver on your promise to talk to Piers and Susanna. We’re ready to go, we’re live on ITV right now. Prime minister, we have an earpiece in my pocket. You are more than welcome to come on.” "
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 06:56:20 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9653 on: July 08, 2022, 04:43:51 PM »
I don't know what Boris has to do with Trump, but didn't he just step down as PM. (Probably followed by months to pick a successor)

Re: Trump
« Reply #9654 on: July 08, 2022, 05:13:22 PM »
Yes.
Ok. My clever counter argument is no he didn’t. Do you have a video or transcript of this imaginary interview?

I’m not sure how you bolding random parts of an article which doesn’t back up the claim that he did helps you. I notice you didn’t bold the word “separate”. :)

The headline is Boris is a liar. Like Trump is a liar. And not in a “misrepresenting things” kinda way, which is what you do. In a 1984 saying you can see 3 fingers when there are only 2 way. It’s been a very damaging few years for politics globally. It’s depressing how many people fell for their nonsense

Do you have some
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9655 on: July 08, 2022, 05:28:21 PM »
Yes.
Ok. My clever counter argument is no he didn’t. Do you have a video or transcript of this imaginary interview?

I’m not sure how you bolding random parts of an article which doesn’t back up the claim that he did helps you. I notice you didn’t bold the word “separate”. :)

The headline is Boris is a liar. Like Trump is a liar. And not in a “misrepresenting things” kinda way, which is what you do. In a 1984 saying you can see 3 fingers when there are only 2 way. It’s been a very damaging few years for politics globally. It’s depressing how many people fell for their nonsense

Do you have some

It sounds like you have forced beliefs and refuse to believe that you were lied to. Here he is coming out of the warehouse with a crate of milk and giving an interview:


Re: Trump
« Reply #9656 on: July 08, 2022, 10:14:01 PM »
lol. You literally just posted a video of the separate interview. Not the one he hid from. Because that one didn’t happen. Because he hid.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9657 on: July 08, 2022, 10:40:04 PM »
Wow. Read the last few messages:

Johnson later came out with a crate of milk bottles and gave an interview

Did he?

Yes.

Ok. My clever counter argument is no he didn’t. Do you have a video or transcript of this imaginary interview?


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Offline stack

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9658 on: July 08, 2022, 11:57:25 PM »
Wow. Read the last few messages:

Johnson later came out with a crate of milk bottles and gave an interview

Is this what you consider an interview?



Reporter: Will you come on Good Morning Britain?
Boris: Of course I will.

That's an interview?

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Offline markjo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9659 on: July 09, 2022, 12:28:09 AM »
Reporter: Will you come on Good Morning Britain?
Boris: Of course I will.

That's an interview?
Wow, that's even more efficient than a Mad Magazine 2-Question Interview.
https://www.madcoversite.com/features-letters-2_question_interview.html
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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