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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #260 on: June 15, 2022, 10:40:08 PM »
https://mobile.twitter.com/theliamnissan/status/1536779021010276355

If this is true, I wonder if Lauren will be contrite or pivot to whinging about MSM? This is being released by the same PAC that released info on Madison Cawthorn so it’s not something I will dismiss out of hand but I’m not getting out my pitchfork.

She murdered babies and should be in jail, not in Congress.

I know nothing about this woman but if she did this in the distant past (10 years+) and changed her stance, thats fine.  I don't agree but we shouldn't shame people for changing their minds.

The other stuff?  Yeah, totally a target for criticism.

Murdering people and then later deciding "actually murder is not so bad" should absolutely still be criticized. A reformed murderer is still a dangerous felon.

Rama Set

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #261 on: June 16, 2022, 10:32:27 AM »
https://mobile.twitter.com/theliamnissan/status/1536779021010276355

If this is true, I wonder if Lauren will be contrite or pivot to whinging about MSM? This is being released by the same PAC that released info on Madison Cawthorn so it’s not something I will dismiss out of hand but I’m not getting out my pitchfork.

She murdered babies and should be in jail, not in Congress.

There are no States where abortion is murder, so technically incorrect.

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I know nothing about this woman but if she did this in the distant past (10 years+) and changed her stance, thats fine.  I don't agree but we shouldn't shame people for changing their minds.

The other stuff?  Yeah, totally a target for criticism.

Murdering people and then later deciding "actually murder is not so bad" should absolutely still be criticized. A reformed murderer is still a dangerous felon.

She later decided abortion is murder. Maybe you thought she was someone else? Or maybe you typed the wrong turn of phrase?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #262 on: June 16, 2022, 12:57:48 PM »
There are no States where abortion is murder, so technically incorrect.

I don't see the relevance. Maybe you let States [sic] decide what and how to think for you, but I don't.

She later decided abortion is murder. Maybe you thought she was someone else? Or maybe you typed the wrong turn of phrase?

She is a murderer and belongs in prison with the rest of them. I don't care whether or not the woman acknowledges it was murder. Prison already has plenty of murderers who "dindu nuffin", adding one that knows what they did is no big deal to me (but is to you, apparently).

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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #263 on: June 16, 2022, 01:05:44 PM »
There are no States where abortion is murder, so technically incorrect.

I don't see the relevance. Maybe you let States [sic] decide what and how to think for you, but I don't.
This is not about what to think or a matter of opinion. The States define laws - including what is an isn't murder.
A rabid vegetarian saying "Meat is Murder" doesn't make them correct, as defined by law.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #264 on: June 16, 2022, 01:12:01 PM »
This is not about what to think or a matter of opinion. The States define laws - including what is an isn't murder.

The idea that States [sic] define what murder is would be your opinion.

A rabid vegetarian saying "Meat is Murder" doesn't make them correct, as defined by law.

A vegetarian saying "Meat is Murder" is correct in the sense that what murder is/isn't is a matter of personal opinion. It has nothing to do with armed gangs running around violently enforcing their opinions on the local population. Telling me that there's a Big Bad out there whose opinion is more important than mine simply because they'll imprison me or kill me is irrelevant. My opinion supersedes theirs by matter of being my opinion.

That you so gladly let someone else dictate to you what is and isn't murder is your problem, not mine.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #265 on: June 16, 2022, 01:44:16 PM »
That you so gladly let someone else dictate to you what is and isn't murder is your problem, not mine.
It's not a problem at all, it's just reality.
I'm talking about the legal definition of murder. You said that "she should be in jail", so you are too.
That's a definition, defined by the State. Because that's how society works.
You don't get to decide what is legal, you vote for people who do that and if they're not making laws you like you can vote for different people.
So you might think that abortion should be considered murder if you like, but saying it "is" is simply incorrect by the current definition.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #266 on: June 16, 2022, 03:08:34 PM »
It's not a problem at all, it's just reality.
I'm talking about the legal definition of murder. You said that "she should be in jail", so you are too.
That's a definition, defined by the State. Because that's how society works.
You don't get to decide what is legal, you vote for people who do that and if they're not making laws you like you can vote for different people.
So you might think that abortion should be considered murder if you like, but saying it "is" is simply incorrect by the current definition.

Your idea of who gets to define murder is simply wrong.

Let's say, for example, that suddenly I am the most powerful person on the planet (woe to many, I know). In this magical universe where I am in charge, I am now effectively the government, able to impose my will on anyone anywhere at any time. Therefore, I define the legal system. In this universe, is my opinion of what constitutes murder now the "objectively correct" definition of murder to you? If the answer is yes, then why bother pretending to have any opinions at all? You don't happen to the universe, the universe happens to you. Your life and its opinions are based entirely of whatever the most powerful force in your vicinity happens to be. Your concept of what is and isn't murder entirely depends on mine in that universe.

Instead, if you answer "no", (which would be mine, should the positions reverse), then obviously the government's opinion of what is or isn't murder is irrelevant. I do not think just because some large group can inflict violence on me that suddenly their definition of murder outweighs my own.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 03:10:43 PM by Rushy »

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #267 on: June 16, 2022, 03:31:09 PM »
It's not a problem at all, it's just reality.
I'm talking about the legal definition of murder. You said that "she should be in jail", so you are too.
That's a definition, defined by the State. Because that's how society works.
You don't get to decide what is legal, you vote for people who do that and if they're not making laws you like you can vote for different people.
So you might think that abortion should be considered murder if you like, but saying it "is" is simply incorrect by the current definition.

Your idea of who gets to define murder is simply wrong.

Let's say, for example, that suddenly I am the most powerful person on the planet (woe to many, I know). In this magical universe where I am in charge, I am now effectively the government, able to impose my will on anyone anywhere at any time. Therefore, I define the legal system. In this universe, is my opinion of what constitutes murder now the "objectively correct" definition of murder to you? If the answer is yes, then why bother pretending to have any opinions at all? You don't happen to the universe, the universe happens to you. Your life and its opinions are based entirely of whatever the most powerful force in your vicinity happens to be. Your concept of what is and isn't murder entirely depends on mine in that universe.

Instead, if you answer "no", (which would be mine, should the positions reverse), then obviously the government's opinion of what is or isn't murder is irrelevant. I do not think just because some large group can inflict violence on me that suddenly their definition of murder outweighs my own.

Perhaps this has been stated or addressed.  Not going to read 14 pages of dialogue to catch up.

This issue with your assertion is that, in the US, a majority of the population feels abortion should be legal.  Hence, a majority feel it is not murder.  That is not an overwhelming majority, but significantly more than 51/49.  So, is it murder or isn't it?  Just because Rushy thinks so doesn't make it so.  It's a subjective opinion.  This leads to the fact that it will be the government that ultimately decides whether it is or not.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #268 on: June 16, 2022, 03:34:28 PM »
Perhaps this has been stated or addressed.  Not going to read 14 pages of dialogue to catch up.

This issue with your assertion is that, in the US, a majority of the population feels abortion should be legal.  Hence, a majority feel it is not murder.  That is not an overwhelming majority, but significantly more than 51/49.  So, is it murder or isn't it?  Just because Rushy thinks so doesn't make it so.  It's a subjective opinion.  This leads to the fact that it will be the government that ultimately decides whether it is or not.

The point is that you can't say objectively that abortion is or isn't murder merely because the government may or may not say it is. It's like saying pushing a gay man off a roof in Afghanistan isn't murder because the government in that location happens to think that is the case.

When I say "abortion is murder" bringing up "the government doesn't think it is" isn't relevant when the basis for the discourse is morality and not the legal system's opinion on the matter at hand.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #269 on: June 16, 2022, 03:44:33 PM »
Let's say, for example, that suddenly I am the most powerful person on the planet (woe to many, I know). In this magical universe where I am in charge, I am now effectively the government, able to impose my will on anyone anywhere at any time. Therefore, I define the legal system. In this universe, is my opinion of what constitutes murder now the "objectively correct" definition of murder to you?
In the legal sense, yes.

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If the answer is yes, then why bother pretending to have any opinions at all?
You can have an opinion about what the laws should be, sure. But what the laws are is not a matter of opinion.

Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #270 on: June 16, 2022, 06:29:27 PM »
*wonders when they'll realize Rushy is using the factual definition, not legal*
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Rama Set

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #271 on: June 16, 2022, 06:38:10 PM »
*wonders when they'll realize Rushy is using the factual definition, not legal*

The dictionary definition is:

Quote from: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder
the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

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Offline markjo

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #272 on: June 16, 2022, 08:44:24 PM »
There are no States where abortion is murder, so technically incorrect.
Tell that to Texas.
A 26-year-old woman in Texas was arrested and charged with murder after what authorities claimed was a “self-induced abortion,” the Associated Press reported Saturday.

It seems that you can even be charged for having a miscarriage.
On 4 November 2019, TV stations across California blasted Chelsea Becker’s photo on their news editions. The “search was on” for a “troubled” 25-year-old woman wanted for the “murder of her unborn baby”, news anchors said, warning viewers not to approach if they spotted her but to call the authorities.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #273 on: June 16, 2022, 10:20:04 PM »
A message for abortionists:


https://files.catbox.moe/x7cpsf.MP4
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 11:44:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #274 on: June 16, 2022, 11:36:08 PM »
In the legal sense, yes.

Fortunately my morality is not so dependent on the local legal system as yours.

You can have an opinion about what the laws should be, sure. But what the laws are is not a matter of opinion.

That's simply incorrect. The act of abiding by a legal system itself is a matter of opinion. A legal system is only powerful in a situation in which the populace's personal opinion of morality closely matches that of the legal system. An additional factor is how the people themselves react to the legal system's presence. A tyranny prefers individuals who defer their opinion to the system itself (and now refer to that system as 'fact') while a more free system does not necessitate such a harsher philosophy.


*wonders when they'll realize Rushy is using the factual definition, not legal*

The dictionary definition is:

Quote from: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder
the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

As I've attempted to explain, what one does and doesn't consider 'lawful' is simply a personal opinion.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 11:40:38 PM by Rushy »

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #275 on: June 17, 2022, 01:06:50 AM »
As I've attempted to explain, what one does and doesn't consider 'lawful' is simply a personal opinion.

I agree. My "opinion" on an act may be informed or not by governing laws. I think your point about the taliban throwing gays off cliffs or burning journalists alive in cages (murder in my eyes) is a solid one. The governing body, their laws, condoned such activity - In other words, it was "lawful" to the governance of the region. Yet my opinion/morality says it's murder.

The issue at hand is whether RvW is protected by I think it's the 4th amendment or not. Regardless of our opinions. Seems like the SCOTUS is going to come out and say it's not.

The rub in all this, the latest data which is from 2019, is that there were 690k-ish abortions in the US. Assuming 1 per woman, if your opinion were to be retroactively applied, almost 3/4 of a million women would be incarcerated, in just that year alone. And going forward, no matter the level of ban, more so than ever, abortions will still exist in the 100's of thousands due to the ubiquity and ease of getting pills and such. I'm not sure how we would ever manifest that level of incarceration with our system. And shipping masses of women, young and old, off to penitentiaries won't play well in public opinion when 61% of Americans are pro-choice.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #276 on: June 17, 2022, 05:55:04 AM »
A message for abortionists:
I also like false equivalency logical fallacies
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #277 on: June 17, 2022, 09:54:09 AM »
In the legal sense, yes.
Fortunately my morality is not so dependent on the local legal system as yours.
Well sure, your moral opinion of what constitutes murder may be different from the legal definition. But the latter is a definition.

You can have an opinion about what the laws should be, sure. But what the laws are is not a matter of opinion.
That's simply incorrect.

Cool. Well good luck with that next time you're in court.
I'm sure your opinion about what the laws should be will carry a lot of weight with the judge.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 10:09:45 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #278 on: June 17, 2022, 01:21:28 PM »
Well sure, your moral opinion of what constitutes murder may be different from the legal definition. But the latter is a definition.

An opinion that, in my opinion, isn't relevant to my original post.

Cool. Well good luck with that next time you're in court.
I'm sure your opinion about what the laws should be will carry a lot of weight with the judge.

And that's not really relevant either. I'm not sure why everyone immediately brought this up. When I say "she belongs in jail", it's not very interesting to say "yes but the currently corrupt legal system says she'll never be in jail so you're wrong haha!"

Imagine, again, if I were in a Middle Eastern nation saying "this person shouldn't be stoned" and someone like you says "whatever, the current legal system says they should be so you're wrong!" Very salient point. Bravo.

Rama Set

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #279 on: June 17, 2022, 01:31:23 PM »
The legal system isn’t corrupt because it disagrees with you. There are plenty of good arguements for the legality of abortion and simply ascribing to those views doesn’t make them morally bankrupt. We allow humans to shoot other humans legally in certain cases, but all abortions are murder? It’s a shallow analysis that ignores the multitude of circumstances under which an abortion may be sought out. The question is complicated and unfortunately is being decided by people whose stock in trade is creating polarizing viewpoints for people to ascribe to.