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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2021, 08:41:41 PM »
Irrelevant. We have a very wide field of view. If you had a bunch of trees and hills and buildings circled around you, you would see them circled around you.

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Offline stack

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2021, 08:47:40 PM »
Irrelevant. We have a very wide field of view. If you had a bunch of trees and hills and buildings circled around you, you would see them circled around you.

So you're saying that when you lie down and look up at the sky you see the world like this:



You must have some sort of ultra-human peripheral vision. Like that of a rabbit's:


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2021, 09:13:20 PM »
A wide angle view is the idea, yes. Refer back to the explanation of a polar projection. It simulates the view of laying down and holding a piece of paper in the air to trace paths. Notice that the labels North, South, East, and West are on the sides of the circle like the image you posted.

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/eme810/node/534




« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 09:15:37 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline JSS

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2021, 09:14:32 PM »
When did I claim I have 'special knowledge' of numerical simulations?  By saying I can write them?  They are very simple to do, any first year comp-sci major could write one, and easily wrine an n-body simulatort as well. It's not hard to do at all.

Since we have contemporary sources saying that you are incorrect about Numerical Simulations, you're incorrect.

If you are going to argue something, you need to demonstrate it, not claim that you have special knowledge and have special credentials.
[/quote]

If you are going to argue something, you need to have more sources than a Wiki page you wrote. Please explain what in that page you are trying to use as an argument.

If posting a wiki link is a valid argument, I present Three-body_problem as an example of a problem requiring numerical solutions.

I offered to demonstrate my abilities by writing code for you, you declined to take me up on the offer.

Again you are making your claims about 'special knowledge' and 'special credentials'. Knowing how to program isn't a special credential, it's simply a fact I have proven. Anyone who can program can write an n-body simulator.

I've posted actual star trails I took myself. They show circles. Your only argument is random pictures on the internet with unknown distortions.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2021, 09:25:34 PM »
If you are going to argue something, you need to have more sources than a Wiki page you wrote.

Incorrect. Only a small percentage is original content. The vast majority of that content comes from contemporary sources. You have failed to rebut those sources.

Quote from: JSS
I offered to demonstrate my abilities by writing code for you, you declined to take me up on the offer.

This is just more evidence suggesting fibbing in my book. In the Suggestions Thread you're offing to write a N-Body Gravity Simulation in any language, implying that you are proficient in all computer languages.  ::)

I said I programmed n-body simulations before. I offered to prove it by writing one in any language Tom chose, but Tom declined to take me up on that offer.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 09:54:44 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2021, 09:27:58 PM »
A wide angle view is the idea, yes. Refer back to the explanation of a polar projection. It simulates the view of laying down and holding a piece of paper in the air to trace paths. Notice that the labels North, South, East, and West are on the sides of the circle like the image you posted.

Irrelevant. You seem to think you have the field of view of a rabbit.

The world does not look like this when lying down and looking up at the sky:


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2021, 09:38:49 PM »
Irrelevant. You seem to think you have the field of view of a rabbit.

Nope. A rabbit laying down on its back would have a much greater field of view than necessary to see both East and West at once.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 09:40:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2021, 09:45:51 PM »
Irrelevant. You seem to think you have the field of view of a rabbit.

Nope. A rabbit laying down on its back would have a much greater field of view than necessary to see both East and West at once.



Like I said you say you can see the world like this:



You have optical powers shared by no other humans. Extraordinary.

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Offline JSS

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2021, 09:50:32 PM »
If you are going to argue something, you need to have more sources than a Wiki page you wrote.

Incorrect. Only a small percentage is original content. The vast majority of that content comes from contemporary sources. You have failed to rebut those sources.

So you are admitting the link you posted is just full of links to other sources, not even your own argument.

You have still failed to explain what in that page supports your view.

Quote from: JSS
I offered to demonstrate my abilities by writing code for you, you declined to take me up on the offer.

This is just more evidence of someone fibbing in my book. In the Suggestions Thread you're offing to write a N-Body Gravity Simulation in any language, implying that you are proficient in all computer languages.  ::)

I said I programmed n-body simulations before. I offered to prove it by writing one in any language Tom chose, but Tom declined to take me up on that offer.

This is just showing your ignorance about computer languages.  Anyone who has developed in a wide range of computer languages can pick up a new one without much trouble.  You can ask anyone in the industry and they will tell you the same thing. 

I'm not saying I'm proficient in all computer languages, but I could learn enough about one in a day to write something as simple as an n-body simulator which is just looping through some arrays and performing math on them.

You are very quick to call people a liar when you come across something you don't understand.  Your own ignorance of a subject doesn't mean others can't be very well versed in it.  You are not an expert in all things.

That's why I made the offer in the other thread, which you declined to respond to. I was hoping you would pick something interesting, but no big loss. I will find other uses for my time.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2021, 09:53:48 PM »
Like I said you say you can see the world like this:

You have optical powers shared by no other humans. Extraordinary.

That's what the polar projection assumes, yes.

You can see points over 180 degrees around you. If you can't see such a space vertically because your upper brow is in the way all you need to do is rotate your head. Vertical FOV is fairly high as well.

The argument was that a wide field of view must necessarily produces distortion. Since we can see a very high field of view with human vision, this argument about FOV and distortion is incorrect.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 09:58:05 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2021, 10:05:34 PM »
Like I said you say you can see the world like this:

You have optical powers shared by no other humans. Extraordinary.

That's what the polar projection assumes, yes.

You can see points over 180 degrees around you. If you can't see such a space vertically because your upper brow is in the way all you need to do is rotate your head. Vertical FOV is fairly high as well.

The argument was that a wide field of view must necessarily produces distortion. Since we can see a very high field of view with human vision, this argument about FOV and distortion is incorrect.

It really is extraordinary. Not only do you have the FOV of a rabbit, but you can see in a Polar Projection format as well.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #91 on: January 31, 2021, 10:11:45 PM »
It really is extraordinary. Not only do you have the FOV of a rabbit, but you can see in a Polar Projection format as well.

I didn't claim anything about having the FOV of a rabbit. You appear to be misinterpreting what the Rabbit's FOV is and the amount necessary to see East and West at once.

The argument was that high FOV means distortion. This argument was unable to be defended.

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Offline stack

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #92 on: January 31, 2021, 10:50:38 PM »
It really is extraordinary. Not only do you have the FOV of a rabbit, but you can see in a Polar Projection format as well.

I didn't claim anything about having the FOV of a rabbit. You appear to be misinterpreting what the Rabbit's FOV is and the amount necessary to see East and West at once.

The argument was that high FOV means distortion. This argument was unable to be defended.

No, you said:

Astronomy programs like Stellarium produce a polar projection, and would be identical to where one was laying down and observing the sky with their ~180 degree field of view.

Claiming that a polar projection with 180° FOV would be identical to laying down and observing the sky, which you claim would be this:



I don't see the world in a Polar Projection with a 180° FOV like above when laying down and observing the sky. But apparently you do (and rabbits as well). Extraordinary.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2021, 05:10:59 AM »
Quote
I don't see the world in a Polar Projection with a 180° FOV like above when laying down and observing the sky. But apparently you do (and rabbits as well). Extraordinary.

Nope. Rabbits have nearly 360 degree FOV. Humans have an FOV of about 190 degrees. You appear to have difficulty understanding the rabbit diagram you saw and with basic concepts like degrees. Please research these subjects before commenting in the future.

SteelyBob

Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2021, 09:52:44 AM »
Tom, in all the chat about rabbits and FOVs, I'm still unclear on one thing - are you standing by your statement that stars, in both real life and in Stellarium, do not move in circles around the pole stars? That their angular separation, in both real life and in Stellarium and other tools, does not remain constant?

I have to say, that picture you showed measuring pixel distances is one of the most absurd arguments I've seen on the internet for a long time. The normally straight-line silhouette features on the horizon wrapping around in an obviously distorted circle.. and then taking a linear measurement on the same picture in two different situations...and expecting to be taken seriously? Astonishing.
 

Offline Action80

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2021, 02:24:46 PM »
@action80

And those same distant points around an observer in 3 dimensions would form a sphere.  What's your point?
My point is the same distant points cannot form ellipses unless they are spiraling away from the observer toward the farthest observable point. Therefore, they would travel in a circular path overhead.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2021, 02:40:39 PM »
Like I said you say you can see the world like this:

You have optical powers shared by no other humans. Extraordinary.

That's what the polar projection assumes, yes.

You can see points over 180 degrees around you. If you can't see such a space vertically because your upper brow is in the way all you need to do is rotate your head. Vertical FOV is fairly high as well.

The argument was that a wide field of view must necessarily produces distortion. Since we can see a very high field of view with human vision, this argument about FOV and distortion is incorrect.

Any lens with a vocal length less than infinity produces a distorted image, and the human eye is a false comparison.  From the moment we open our eyes, our heads start writing software to convert the distorted retinal image into something representing reality, and we can't unlearn that anymore than we can un-learn breathing or pooping. 

And although we may have visual perception over something like 180 degrees, our acuity measures less than 10 degrees.  Hold a newspaper at arms length to your side; you can tell that something is there, but you'll need to turn you head a few degrees to identify it as a newspaper, and look directly at it to read the headline.  I



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Offline Tom Bishop

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« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 05:43:04 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline JSS

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #98 on: February 02, 2021, 05:46:24 PM »
Any lens with a vocal length less than infinity produces a distorted image

No

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/perspective-distortion-photographic-composition





Tom, why did you stop your underlining of that quote before it ended?  Did you not read the rest of the sentence?

Fact: a rectilinear lens, regardless of its focal length, will not distort objects in the frame, beyond the aforementioned lens distortions.

The 'aforementioned lens distortions' is referring to the quote But, because light rays are being refracted, even with a rectilinear lens, distortion appears when the light passes through the elements of the lens.

You have just once again, provided a source that disproves your own claim.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does FE explain star trails?
« Reply #99 on: February 02, 2021, 05:58:45 PM »
Maybe a little inherent distortion, but since lines on buildings and structures appear straight beyond anything that is easily detectable in quality rectilinear lenses, it's irrelevant.