81

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: July 12, 2020, 03:49:22 AM »

Forgive me if this was discussed already in this thread (I'm not reading 296 pages), and I've been away from these forums for a few weeks - but here's my question:

Does Trump have a chance this November?  What does everyone think? 

A few of my own thoughts:

1. Biden is clearly not as disliked as Hillary was. 
2. But Biden is also not all that inspiring, as Hillary - to a point - was for many. Biden is just so "blah."
3. Trump has super low ratings now.
4. But things could change in the next few months - no one thought he would win in July of 2016. Like, really no one.


And a followup, but related question - What is going to hurt Trump more - the COVID-19 situation, or the BLM/police brutality/riots situation? 

82

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: June 10, 2020, 04:42:10 PM »

Innocent old man

Yes, innocent.  It is 100% not a crime to say this.    And making it a crime to say something like this would take our institutions back more than 200 years.   

In fact, ensuring that this sort of statement is not a crime was so important to the founding fathers of America that it was the first amendment to the constitution that guarantees that it's a perfectly fine thing to do. This is middle school level civics.

83

Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Rowbotham use Conspiracy Theories?

« on: June 10, 2020, 04:08:14 PM »

On the other hand, it can be argued that there are very few human rights violations and war crimes committed by these allied democracies, and every single time One is committed allies call them out on it.

This is patently not the case on both fronts. Human rights violations are outrageously common among Western-style democracies, and these receive very little attention unless people take to the streets and start setting shit on fire over the issue.

Australia's treatment of surrounding nations and refugees comes to mind as an obvious one, and one that's regularly swept under the rug. How many governments have condemned Australia over its handling of Timor-Leste? Have you heard of the issue before I mentioned it just now?

Well, yes, I don't think I disagree with you so much. Let me break it down:

The discussion turned to a question from Tom about NATO allies calling each other out for rights violations in a war, specifically.  And that's the context I was writing under (just look at my posts in the thread about cop brutality in the US - I've stated like four times that all such cops should be condemned and stand trial).  And in that context of warcrimes, this was going to mostly be about unjust killings, which actually are fairly rare, and when they happen, those in charge ARE called out on it, generally speaking.

Now, you rightly say that human rights violations are outrageously common in Western democracies. Yes, sadly.  And we know this due to many reasons - from social media, to lawyers who witness them in court cases (I subscribe to this podcast, which routinely has stories of government malpractice:  https://ij.org/center-for-judicial-engagement/sc/weekly-podcast/
, to organizations like Amnesty International, and others.

In countries of millions upon millions of people, of course there will be plenty of instances of criminals who also happen to be government agents, because there are, well, a ton of government agents.  This doesn't excuse any of it. But it explains why it feels so commonplace. But that's sort of an artifact of the size of our samples and societies. If you're going to go down a road that Western democracies are worse, when it comes to human rights violations as non-democracies and authoritarian places like modern day China and Russia, or Kazakhstan or Saudi Arabia, etc.  Good luck.  It's just a banal way of saying that all human societies contain bad actors, including among their leaders and police.

Seeing this in the context of the whole population, this also leads to the obvious conclusion that the government agents and leaders who ARE honest and good cannot be expected to call out every single instance of human rights violations - no one can do that. Which is why we deal with data and databases for such things.

But when a particularly famous event is news around the world, you find other governments calling each other out routinely.

In this thread are links that cumulatively contain dozens and dozens of government officials from US allies condemning the police brutality, because this is big news. But some random violation of rights that happened in West Virginia, unknown to most except in the local area it happened?  Why would you expect a European leader to even know about that?

And as far as warzones, I also posted several links to condemnation of US military actions that were deemed bad. This is the norm - if a military event is publicized, and it is shown that the US acted poorly, other countries will absolutely call the US out on it.  I read widely about international relations, this is very much the norm.

84

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: June 10, 2020, 03:26:28 PM »

I mean that just as there is a portion of police who are clearly bad actors - and we have video evidence of it - there is a portion of the protesters who are clearly bad actors - and we also have video evidence of that.

Not relevant to the topic, though. The question was "Are the police out of control?", because the police are taxpayer-funded, should answer to the people, but are routinely mistreating the people, apparently just because they feel they can. 

The core point is that most of the instances referred to go far beyond the realm of reasonable action, when the general public are being casually brutalised and attacked, simply because the police fear no repercussions.

The journalist is on his knees, and is ordered to lie flat on his stomach by police. While in this position, he holds his press card, and announces his credentials as a number of police pass by. Most ignore him, but the last, almost casually, with no reason beyond the fact that he can, gives the journalist a squirt of pepper spray in his face. This is not legitimate crowd control, this is not reasonable force, this is plain and simple malice, just for the sake of it.

There's almost 500 examples in the links I posted above.

I totally agree with you about these cops.

But my comments are super relevant.

Reread the first post I put in this thread.

My point is that while some cops are certainly evil, we should retain policing as an institution in society because without it things break down and get worse.

 I posted evidence from Chicago of an exceptionally high murder rate in a weekend because criminals were specifically taking advantage of the fact that there were no police there to stop them because they were dealing with the riots.

My point continues to be relevant in that while we should completely condemn and put on trial any cops who do bad things, we still need to retain law enforcement as an institution in society

And I had to argue that point because it has been brought up in this thread that perhaps we should just do away with police. Terrible idea.

85

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: June 10, 2020, 01:55:34 PM »

The subject may have moved on by now, but for the benefit of everyone who isn't Tom, The Conservative Treehouse is a nutty fringe website, and of course Martin Gugino wasn't somehow "hacking" the cop with his phone.

What do you mean by fringe website? Did they doctor his blog and twitter posts that they link to, and the video of him approaching an officer and passing a device over the equipment on his body?

Why are you still dodging the question about whether what he did was illegal?
If it was illegal then why didn't they arrest him. If it wasn't then while he might well have been provoking them, dealing with that sort of thing is literally part of their job. If they can't do that without shoving a 75 year old man to the ground so hard that he needs hospital treatment then maybe they're not well suited to that role.

To be fair, it's possible what he did was illegal and they didn't arrest him because they have to triage things - if they are going towards more rowdy folks elsewhere they could be calculating that they need to deal with more critical offenses from others elsewhere and don't have time to deal with him.

That said, I think whether what the old man did was strictly illegal or not is moot and immaterial. These cops acted brutally, neglectfully, and shamefully. And that's what matters here.  The right move for them should have been to just walk around him, I'd think.

86

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: June 10, 2020, 01:33:02 PM »

... but, by all means, let's have another thread started on how the protesters have been mistreating the police that were in their custody....

If this was in response to my comment, that's not what I meant....

I mean that just as there is a portion of police who are clearly bad actors - and we have video evidence of it - there is a portion of the protesters who are clearly bad actors - and we also have video evidence of that. 

Have you not seen any videos in the past week of arson, looting, and beating up other folks (not cops, just other civilians) ?  If you really actually have seen none of this, and you've only seen videos and news about cops being ruthless and brutal, then I would first say you have quite a limited range of news sources and you need to read more. 

All the cops who are committing actual crimes (especially against innocent folks) should be condemned.  And all the protesters who are committing actual crimes (especially against innocent folks) should be condemned as well.  I think this is very reasonable.

Here's a particularly heartbreaking story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Milw6_UBc0A







 

87

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: June 09, 2020, 10:57:02 PM »

Another thread should/could be started titled "Are the American protesters out of control?"

Very few people, if any, are saying that the cop who killed Floyd George should not have been arrested (as he was last week). That was a clear tragedy, and the four cops involved should stand trial. And they are.

And there are hundreds of example videos of other cops doing bad things that they absolutely shouldn't - beating up innocent folks, etc.  All these should be condemned.

However, the idea put forth that policing in general should be done away with is pretty ridiculous to me.

Reformed? Yes. Do away with Qualified Immunity? Probably. Require body cams and other measures to reduce the ability of cops to lie about incidents? For sure.

But to have a city without agents meant to protect from and investigate crimes? Absurd.

During the riots, it's absolutely zero surprise to me that murderers (not cops, just civilian murderers) took advantage of the riots last weekend in Chicago. Two quotes from the Chicago Sun Times:

"While Chicago was roiled by another day of protests and looting in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, 18 people were killed Sunday, May 31, making it the single most violent day in Chicago in six decades, according to the University of Chicago Crime Lab. The lab’s data doesn’t go back further than 1961."

A reverend of a church in the south side is quoted as saying:
"'On Saturday and particularly Sunday, I heard people saying all over, ‘Hey, there’s no police anywhere, police ain’t doing nothing,’' Pfleger said."

here's the full story:
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-violence-murder-history-homicide-police-crime



I am a strong advocate of 2A as well. But things will get much, much worse without police.

We need to eliminate police brutality, not police as an institution.

88

Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Rowbotham use Conspiracy Theories?

« on: June 09, 2020, 02:59:52 PM »

Out of curiosity, what is the ratio of incidents in which such a condemnation was issued to military/human rights crises in general? After all, the assertion was that this is "the norm".

Naturally, I'm not asking for you to actually compute the exact number. Think of it as a thought experiment.

I think this is actually a great point.

I would say that it is not necessarily the “norm” that countries that consider each other allies call each other out on bad behavior (unless the leadership has constituents which cause them to do so).  EDIT: I totally contradict myself below, as I've thought through these things in the past few days.    


And so it’s natural that the instances in which you find government leaders calling out an allied country are hot button Political issues like targeted drone killings and torturing prisoners.

Edit:
On the other hand, it can be argued that there are very few human rights violations and war crimes committed by these allied democracies, and every single time One is committed allies call them out on it.

If so, then it would not only be the norm but it would occur at a close to 100% rate.

89

Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Rowbotham use Conspiracy Theories?

« on: June 06, 2020, 03:02:11 PM »

OK then what about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#Criticism_and_condemnation

European leaders have also voiced their opposition to the internment center. On 13 January 2006, German Chancellor Angela Merkel criticized the U.S. detention of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay: "An institution like Guantánamo, in its present form, cannot and must not exist in the long term. We must find different ways of dealing with prisoners. As far as I'm concerned, there's no question about that," she declared in a 9 January interview to Der Spiegel. Meanwhile, in the UK, Peter Hain, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, stated during a live broadcast of Question Time (16 February 2006) that: "I would prefer that it wasn't there and I would prefer it was closed." His cabinet colleague and Former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Tony Blair, declared the following day that the center was "an anomaly and sooner or later it's got to be dealt with."

Germany and the UK are NATO allies, right?

They absolutely are.

And here's some more:

Germany condemns a Nato attack in Pakistan which killed civilians:
https://www.thenewstribe.io/2011/11/28/germany-condemns-nato-attack-on-pakistan-sovereignty/#.TtUAnrIk6so

Denmark, a founding member of Nato, called for an investigation into that same attack:
https://archive.vn/20120717031927/http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11074699-denmark-calls-on-pakistani-foreign-minister-for-condolences-on-the-nato-strike-on-pakistani-military-personnel

As did France, also part of Nato:
https://www.dawn.com/news/724665/un-wants-investigation-into-drone-attacks-in-pakistan

The designation that it must be NATO is highly arbitrary.  Here's condemnation of US military actions by the UN:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/06/04/drone.attacks/

90

Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Rowbotham use Conspiracy Theories?

« on: June 06, 2020, 02:26:05 PM »

I suspect you don't read much about actual international relations - countries call each other out all the time for things that happen in war zones, it's just not front page on NYT WashPost or the AP, etc.

Can you post a source? I want to see two NATO allies exposing each other on a serious criminal military matter.

Why does it have to be Nato allies?  I would not argue that they have no incentive to cover any atrocities up, being you know, allies.

For minor things I’ve already posted a number of them thanks to JSS.

And the answer to my pop quiz is the Second Congo Civil War in which something like 4 million people have died between 1998 and 2008. Lots of atrocities in both sides and lots of governments around the world condemned them.

But before I post anything, explain to me why it must be NATO allies? (i’m guessing I can find some even for that but it will definitely take more digging for sure).

EDIT: scratch that I’ll mention just one off the top of my head:

Many government officials from many European countries condemned certain targeted drone killings in the Middle East during the Obama administration.  They framed it as due process and human rights violations.

I can link stuff about that if you would like, but it was pretty big news 12 or 10 years ago.

As I think of some more I’ll be happy to mention them.

But I still think you need to explain why it must be NATO allies because my argument does not hinge on that....

91

Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Rowbotham use Conspiracy Theories?

« on: June 06, 2020, 02:55:55 AM »

Not really. Notice that most of those source tip-toe around their words and only "condemn racism" and "condemn the killing by police" in very vague terms. I don't see any of them condemning the United States. Iran seems to be the only one trying to attack the US as a country in that, while everyone else is more reluctant.

Also, those sources are talking about and reacting to world news articles. This would be somewhat different than a country trying to expose the USA's human rights violations in a war zone. They rarely try to expose each other. At most you ever see them talking about news articles and current events.

I think you have an unreasonably narrow interpretation of what it means for governments to "call out the US for human rights abuses."  Is it only "calling the US out" if it's a formal censure at the UN or something?  These are widely reported direct quotes from dozens of government officials from around the world saying that what is happening in the US that started the protests is bad and shouldn't happen.

I suspect you don't read much about actual international relations - countries call each other out all the time for things that happen in war zones, it's just not front page on NYT WashPost or the AP, etc.

Pop quiz - what has so far been the deadliest conflict (in terms of numbers dead) in the 21st century so far?  It's not even close - the number one conflict has led to more deaths than all other conflicts in the 21st century combined. Hint: the US is not a part of this war.

And guess what? If you didn't even know about this conflict, my guess is that you also don't know what's been said about it by government officials around the world. A huge amount of human rights abuses occurred in it, and were of course condemned by reasonable governments around the world.

The problem is that there's too much news to read. If it doesn't concern our own countries, we hear about it far less, as a rule.

92

Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Rowbotham use Conspiracy Theories?

« on: June 06, 2020, 02:25:08 AM »

I didn't think I needed to post links as evidence, as it's been front page news all around the world. So here are just a few.

Have you read the articles you've posted? Most of them discuss citizens being upset with the situation.

I can't help but notice that the first thing you're doing after returning from your ban is to debate in poor faith. It's disappointing.

Actually, it appears that you are the one who didn’t read them. Unless you think 2 out of 7 means “most.” 

Most of the linked articles support the relevant (to this discussion) point JSS has been trying to make. And if most of the articles actually are about governments (not merely their citizens) condemning the US, will you concede that he's not arguing in poor faith? 

I read the linked articles – well, 6 of them, since the WSJ one is behind a paywall and I don’t subscribe. If that one is also not “about” governments condemning what’s going on in the US, then I guess it’s 3 out of 7. Still not “most."

Here's an overview of each of them:

FIRST
Un News - US must address deep-seated grievances to move beyond history of racism and violence

The very first sentence is from a governmental agent:

“The voices calling for an end to the killings of unarmed African Americans need to be heard”, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Michelle Bachelet said in a statement. “The voices calling for an end to police violence need to be heard”.

There are 22 paragraphs in the article; by my count about 16 of them are direct quotes or interpretations of quotes by officials of the UN. Not the government of a sovereign country, but the UN is an IGO, so by definition is related to government (lots of them).

SECOND
EU 'shocked and appalled' by George Floyd's killing

This is a frequently updated report that is quite long. But the currently most recent update has this quote:

“Peaceful demonstrations in the United States against the "shocking" killing of George Floyd during an arrest by police are "more than legitimate", Germany's foreign minister said.”

Followed by another quote of his.

And the second most recent update has this quote:

“China's foreign ministry spokesperson called out US racism as "a chronic disease of American society".

The fourth most recent update has this:

The European Union is "shocked and appalled" by the death of George Floyd in police custody, the bloc's top diplomat said, calling it "an abuse of power" and warning against further excessive use of force.

As well as this:

"Like the people of the United States, we are shocked and appalled by the death of George Floyd ... all societies must remain vigilant against the excessive use of force," Josep Borrell, the EU's foreign policy chief, told reporters.

The sixth most recent update has this:

“The Iranian foreign ministry has called on the United States to "stop violence" against its own people in the face of large protests sweeping the nation.”

Followed by more quotes from Iranian officials.

The seventh most recent update has this:

“Australia is investigating a US police attack on two Australian journalists outside the White House with a view to launching a formal complaint, the foreign minister [of Australia] said.”

Keep reading and there’s quotes from Ghana’s president too.

Quite a bit of this is devoted to what foreign leaders are saying, not their citizens.

THIRD
World leaders condemn George Floyd killing as violence spreads in U.S.

Well, read the headline on this one. But just a few select quotes:

“UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson condemned the killing of the unarmed African-American man by police.”

“Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said the police killing shows the "true face" of the United States and its oppression of the peoples of the world, including its own.”

“German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas called the anti-racism protests "understandable and more than legitimate."

FOURTH
Africa Reacts to George Floyd’s Death and U.S. Protests

This article was somewhat unique. It was technically “citizens” and not quotes or comments from government officials, but in the words of the introduction they are all “prominent African journalists, civil society activists, and thought leaders.”

So, let’s call out JSS on this and say this one should not be included (if we agree with Pete’s rhetorical jiu jitsu that within the "government" sub-topic of this thread that is about conspiracies more broadly, we absolutely cannot stray into non-government talk).

FIFTH
Thousands across the UK, Germany, Italy, New Zealand, Canada, and more condemn racism and demand justice at global Black Lives Matter protests

This one is also really about the protests by citizens of several countries, and not their leaders. Shame on JSS!

Though, I will note that it includes the quote that “Labor Party politician Barry Gardiner, who had been social distancing since March, said he "broke it" on Wednesday for the sake of joining thousands of protesters in taking a knee outside parliament.”

SIXTH
The World Is Watching U.S. Protests Over George Floyd. Demonstrations spread to Paris and other cities around the world.


The very second paragraph reads in its entirety:

“Several governments, including in the U.K., Germany and Canada have spoken out about the protests and condemned racism.”

There is only one or two paragraphs directly about the protests alone. The rest of the article is filled with direct quotes from government agents, including:

“The United Nations on Wednesday condemned reports of "unnecessary and disproportionate use of force by law enforcement officers."

“British Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Wednesday said that "racism and racist violence has no place in our society."

“On Tuesday, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau took a lengthy pause before addressing a question about President Donald Trump's handling of the situation. ‘We all watch in horror and consternation what's going on in the United States,’ he said after the 20-second dramatic pause. ‘It is a time to pull people together, but it is a time to listen.’”

....

So, yes, I'd say the links JSS posted are mostly about governments around the world condemning the US for human rights issues.

And I think this supports JSS' prior claim that governments, as a rule, do call each other out for things like this. 

If you read things like Foreign Policy ( https://foreignpolicy.com/ ) which I do subscribe to, you'll find it's actually quite common, and is totally the norm. Which is why I bothered chiming in here.  Great power politics is all about posturing which frequently includes calling other governments out for as many things as possible.

93

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Doubt in Universal Acceleration

« on: May 27, 2020, 11:41:32 PM »

you cannot tell the difference between yourself falling down and yourself being perfectly still in an ever-accelerating body of air.

I'm not so sure.

Thought experiment -

Imagine you are blindfolded and placed on a chair on a platform near the top of a tall, empty silo. The chair is attached to silent bungee cords.
There are also fans below.

You are told that EITHER the platform will be silently and swiftly removed, and you'll fall OR the fans will blow air that is accelerating at exactly 9.8 m/s squared (or whatever it is).

The bungee cords have been engineered to slow your descent and stop at a specified gently rate, and the fans would slow the airflow at the same rate.

Do you believe you would definitely not be able to tell whether you were actually falling, or whether there was simply a body of air accelerating around you?

(I've probably gone a little overboard and could have made this thought experiment a little simpler). 

Is this yet another body of science that FET will have to contend with?  (not referring to a "science of falling"    but biology and our understanding of the inner ear that tells us about balance, motion, acceleration of our body).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_(sensation)

94

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 27, 2020, 09:07:09 PM »

Two questions:

Those of y'all who like Trump, can you name two things he's done that you disagree with?

Those of y'all who dislike Trump, can you name two things he's done that you agree with?

95

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Just Watched

« on: May 27, 2020, 08:24:30 PM »

Birds of Prey - Very watchable. But also very forgettable. So, I guess that makes it decent entertainment?

That was pretty much my take. It was a couple steps above Suicide Squad, but still kind of short of even the weaker Marvel movies.

Totally.

Although, despite the fact that I've watched every single Marvel film, I virtually never look forward to any of them anymore.  It's now more of a  chore to watch them.  The fact that they have more "phases" for the MCU endlessly is wearing me down.   Did we really need 20 films, and do we really need 20 more? 

But that's just me.

96

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Quoting concerns

« on: May 27, 2020, 07:28:01 PM »

This problem is somewhat self-regulating because if someone is misquoted, then that someone is very likely to respond by saying "that's not what I said. I said..."    (yes, an endless loop of misquoting could ensure, but the first mod that sees this start to spiral can easily send it to the dungeon).

97

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Just Watched

« on: May 27, 2020, 07:21:41 PM »

I'm not reading all 100+ pages of this thread, so if i'm doing this wrong, too bad:

Shotgun style, existoid's short reviews:

The Lodge - atmospheric and enjoyable horror. Go into it cold, don't watch the trailer or read anything about it. If you like slow burn horror, you will very likely like this.

Fantasy Island - meh teen level horror.  Good enough for me to watch while playing SNES on another other screen.

Creepshow original Shudder series - exceptional anthology series. Must for horror fans. Sadly, Episode 1 is the best one, but it doesn't deteriorate very much from there.

1917 - "Saving Private Ryan" for WW1.

Come to Daddy - fine acting by Elijah Wood (as always), but also great performance from Stephen McHattie (if you don't know him, check out the exceptionally well done Canadian horror film Pontypool). Very good script and directing as well. Recommend.

Gretel and Hansel - I really wanted to like this; it has several good elements - acting, visuals, atmosphere - but in the end only deserved to have been a 30 min. show dragged out to full length feature. A shame.

Arkansas - Fun crime thriller with discount Chris Hemsworth (who does quite a fine job).

Birds of Prey - Very watchable. But also very forgettable. So, I guess that makes it decent entertainment?

Vampire Hunter D - Saw the original 1985 anime for the first time recently. Pretty good.


 

98

Flat Earth Theory / Re: 3 Body Analytical Analyses

« on: May 26, 2020, 06:33:52 PM »

I think the actual interesting question in this discussion is are there any real, physical systems that are analytically solvable? I think the answer is no. Can we discount all of physics, now?

I am not sure I fully understand what it means for something to be "analytically solvable."   But if what you are writing here is true, would your statement then equally apply to proposed FE physical systems?

99

Flat Earth Theory / Re: 3 Body Analytical Analyses

« on: May 26, 2020, 03:29:49 PM »

That would be quite a trick if NASA and others weren't able to actually predict these things, but were just amazing guessers.

You've missed the point. The question isn't whether those predictions are accurate (even if imprecise), but what the source of them is. RE'ers like to claim that it's RET, but in this thread we have the smoking gun - it's an observation of patterns and computer modelling based on those patterns. Accuracy aside, as soon as you make this admission, it ceases to be evidence pointing towards RET.

But NASA models not using patterns but 'RET' models (Newtonian Gravity, Relativity etc.). They take the equations of motion from these theories and put them into some code - am I missing something?

That is my understanding as well.  The "computer modelling" is not simple pattern recognition like some fancy AI, but simply highly complex and/or iterative math equations or something.

100

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Political compass

« on: May 25, 2020, 07:42:55 PM »

I wonder how you'd have to answer to get your spot at 0,0 on the chart - exact center of all four quadrants.

And what would that mean?