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### Messages - MCToon

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1
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: October 12, 2022, 07:13:20 PM »
Provide the constants used in the math you performed for perspective.

The video is out.

On the December solstice, the angular elevation of the sun was 22.5° at local solar noon.  Milleapolis is at 45°N Lattiude.  That's 4,723 statute miles from the Tropic of Capricorn.  Solving the triangle puts the sun at 1,956 miles high.

On the same day, 12 hours later the sun is still over the Tropic of Capricorn, moved 180 degrees of longitude.  This puts the sun 10,937 miles due north of Minneapolis on the AE map.  Taking the sun to be at the same elevation and solving the triangle, the flat earth angular height of the sun must be 10.14°.

If this is the wrong way, show the correct way.  Note that in the video I provided a real-world example using the same method to measure the height of a physical object.  If I did this wrong, show the right way with a real-world example applying your method.

2
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: October 11, 2022, 08:28:19 PM »
I might play with a glass bowl and put the sun above and below it but for now the glass atmodome is the best I have.

I'll try to fill a dome with water and record the lighting effects.  Someday I'll stick a GoPro in there and record the results.

The most accurate experiment is to fill a dome with air and bring it to space and compare it to the vacuum of space.

There was someone that used a double-walled bowl filled with water.   Essentially it became a water "atmodome" with air on the inside.  I cannot recall the person.  I do recall it didn't work.

3
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: October 04, 2022, 10:37:00 AM »
Okay, fair enough.   Nitrogen and Oxygen are 99% of the earth's atmosphere - not water vapor.

I'm still trying to find data about the properties of the atmosphere after which I can compare the effects of refraction.

Start here:
https://aty.sdsu.edu/explain/atmos_refr/understanding.html

I have a collection of empirical measurements here:
https://mctoon.net/refraction/

4
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: October 04, 2022, 04:41:16 AM »
Most FE'ers approach you with open aggression.

Indeed.  I would expect them to be excited to share the results of their hard work.  You and Tom do!  I find it very strange that so many flat earthers make such absurd claims about the Flat Earth Society.  You are the only ones I have seen in all my adventures that actually try.

To your knowledge, are there other people that think the EA idea is worthwhile?

5
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: October 04, 2022, 04:35:55 AM »
It's not, but the atmosphere has water vapor which can add to refraction...

It seems you have not studied the effects of water vapor on the index of refraction.

Also, the sun sets in deserts and over the ocean alike.  Ascribing correct or incorrect effects of water vapor doesn't help.

6
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: September 30, 2022, 03:45:35 AM »
Since my analysis concluded that sunsets could never happen, the analysis is wrong in your view, why would you want my analysis?
Presumably for the same reason you're trying to solicit an analysis from FE'ers. After all, we disagree with you, therefore we're wrong, so why would you want our position?

I was told I didn't understand the flat earth position.  So I went looking for an explanation.  Nobody other than you and Tom has anything resembling an effort at analysis.  Everyone else's response is "perspective" or refusing to provide anything.

This has been a very informative exercise.  Nobody that thinks perspective causes sunsets actually tested perspective.  No exceptions.

7
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: September 29, 2022, 03:04:46 PM »

Not surprisingly, the OP reveals itself to be another case of RE stomping their collective feet, outrageously demanding an explanation from FE for something they claim to have already analyzed in depth. One goes so far as to label the analysis as using  "normal physics"!
[/quote]

Again, you miss the point, I am asking for the flat earth explanation.  I was told I don't understand flat earth.  So I am here to learn.

Since my analysis concluded that sunsets could never happen, the analysis is wrong in your view, why would you want my analysis?  This is your chance to shine.

I posed this question in many other places as a response to the accusation that I don't understand flat earth.  Flat earthers have three general responses:

• Anger, deflection, demanding I answer questions, memes, etc.
• "Perspective" and "Refraction".  Sometimes in the form of a video that never applies perspective, and roughly applies refraction opposite empirical measurements.
• The sole outliner, Tom Bishop, with EA.
• Tom is the ONLY one that has earned any respect as his proposed answer has some analysis.  If light actually curved as he proposes, there could be something interesting.
• There is no empirical evidence light does as he proposes, so it gets no farther.

Action80, you have chosen option 1.  This informs me that you accepted the claims without doing any analysis.  Anyone that had done the analysis would be giddy to share their results.  Thank you, Action80.  You have confirmed, yet again, that flat earthers generally accept flat earth claims without critical analysis.

8
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: September 28, 2022, 09:01:00 PM »
How did you account for air quality variables between yourself and the sun during your period of observation?

You seem to have neglected to read my post.

I am giving flat earthers an opportunity to showcase how sunsets work on flat earth.  Since all the analysis I did conclude that sunsets are not possible, you will clearly disagree with my results.

So, please show the process YOU personally went through to critically analyze the claimed mechanism for sunsets on flat earth.

You did critically analyze the claimed mechanism for sunsets on flat earth, right?

The analysis you personally did showed that sunsets are possible, right?

Otherwise, you would never have accepted them, right?

All these things are supported by empirical evidence, right?

9
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: September 27, 2022, 02:44:12 PM »
So you read through the EA page and decided that it worked, but you thought that it "lacked empirical evidence" and discarded that possibility, proceeding to publish a video with the title page "The Sun Could Never Set on Flat Earth" which ignores EA and doesn't bring it up at all. This appears to be dishonest.

Tom, I would like to give some time to EA.  Would you present the idea in a live video?

10
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: September 26, 2022, 09:20:08 PM »

11
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: September 26, 2022, 09:19:44 PM »
I was specifically responding to a singular video claiming to have the "comprehensive explanation for sunsets on flat earth".  The video never mentioned EA.  None of the YouTube flerfs mention EA that I have seen.  I have only seen it here.  If there are other applications, I would love to review them as well.

I can respond to "perspective".  It is real and does exist.  This is basic trig.  It's just that when you do apply perspective it shows that the sun would never set.  You must appreciate the sweet irony.

The response to EA is so boring: there is no evidence light does this.  What else is there?  It's a testable hypotheses that has been falsified already.  Here's one of many: https://mctoon27.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/results-of-leveling-refraction-tests-by-ngs-tr-nos92-ngs22.pdf

I do appreciate that you, Pete and the others here actually try to provide an explanation for things.  It's a bit more interesting than the religiflerfs that just say "nuh-uh", "density", and "perspective".

12
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: September 26, 2022, 08:31:16 PM »
I am in Minneapolis, 45°N latitude.

On the December Solstice I measured the sun's angular elevation at local solar noon to be 22.5°.
45°N latitude is 4730 miles from the sun's position over the Tropic of Capricorn at local solar noon.
That gives a sun elevation of 1973 miles.

12 hours later the sun's position is on the opposite side of flat earth.  10,944 miles from Minneapolis.
using 1973 miles elevation, the sun's angular elevation must be 10.2°.

This uses the AE map.  If you prefer a different one, please provide it and include the analysis of the distances.

13
##### Flat Earth Theory / Comprehensive explanation for sunsets
« on: September 26, 2022, 07:10:55 PM »
I published a video last week examining the claimed "most comprehensive flat earth sunset explanation".  The video I reviewed simply said that perspective was the main cause of sunsets.  Then offered refraction as the second cause.

I analyzed these claims and found they didn't explain sunsets at all.  I did the math for perspective and concluded that perspective demands that the sun could never get close to the horizon.

I examined the effects of refraction, which cause things to appear slightly higher, not lower.

In the comments of my video, several flat earthers were angry at me and declared that I just didn't understand flat earth.

I don't want to misrepresent the flat earth position. So I come to you, dear flat earthers, looking for the correct explanation for flat earth sunsets.

Since I have already done the math for perspective, there is no need to just say "perspective".  Instead, please provide the full geometry-based method to properly explain how the sun appears to cross the horizon.

Further, I have read the wiki page here on the topic:
https://wiki.tfes.org/Sunrise_and_Sunset

This provided nothing testable.

I read Rowbotham's work.  It simply makes claims about perspective without a plausible mechanism.

I read the Electromagnetic Acceleration page.  It lacks empirical supporting evidence.

Here is my video in case you want to point out the correct methodologies:

14
##### Flat Earth Media / Pete Svarrior and MCToon friendly chat
« on: March 20, 2019, 11:08:31 PM »
Pete and I had a nice chat for my Coffee with a Flat Earther series on YouTube.  The video is premiering Thursday, March 21 8:00pm GMT or 3:00pm CST.

You can watch live and participate in the live chat or watch any time later.

Thanks for the cordial chat, Pete.

15
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
« on: March 01, 2019, 08:05:15 PM »
Wow. I'm in shock. Thanks for the same link again Tom Bishop. I was going to ask for some clarification because most of what is written on that Wiki doesn't make any sense. Others have already asked though and something has now become clear to me: you're in such deep intellectual denial I don't think you'll ever be convinced otherwise. Either that or you really don't understand the issue of the Sun's position at equinox and likely other issues with flat Earth theory.

Yeah, no surprises to be found here.  I'm still wondering about the disconnect on the wiki with how real world observations comport with flat earth.

Quote
During Equinox the sun is over the equator, with its circular area of light pivoting around the point of the North Pole. The points on the edge of the sun's circular area of light are tracing along the latitude lines, the time of the Equinox being a circle pivoting around itself. Further, the circlular latitude of the equator is very large, and if one were to zoom into a segment of that circle, down to human standards of an observer's relatively small circle of vision, down to a town/personal scale, the curve of the equator beneath the observer would straighten out. The latitude line beneath you locally is relatively straight.

Absolutely, looking at the line of the equator for just the short distance under your feet it will appear straight.  However, on the day of the equinox any observer on the equator sees the sun for about 50% of the sun's path around the equator.  This is not a zoomed in segment, it is a massive amount of it.  If the sun were traveling over "...the circlular latitude of the equator...", this would be apparent.  At sunrise the sun would appear North-East, move horizontally through it's course, pass directly overhead from due east, then continue to move horizontally and set North-West.  There is no playing with words to avoid this truth.  You may reject the AE style maps, this is reasonable, but the problem doesn't get solved.

To select a map consistent with observations on the equator on the day of the equinox you must select a map with a straight equator.  However, a flat map with a straight equator requires Pac-Manning, most people are not up for this.

So, once again, it seems there is a lot of work to do on the equinox explanation for a flat earth.  Or, maybe just abandon the idea since it can't work.

16
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
« on: February 28, 2019, 09:37:06 PM »
"You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere"
...of course, I am not.  I am using your analogy of the race car racing along the equator, but I don't prefer the analogy so I will discard it.

The race car/jet ski disappearing at a close distance away is reality. If you are discarding reality in favor of how you think things should be, then your argument is invalid and there is nothing left to discuss.

Ignore that post, and instead look at the one where I actually refer to the sun.

17
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
« on: February 28, 2019, 09:28:41 PM »
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. A jet ski traveling along the equator and receding from you would disappear at North West on a Flat Earth? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.

"You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere"
...of course, I am not.  I am using your analogy of the race car racing along the equator, but I don't prefer the analogy so I will discard it.

• On the day of the equinox
• Observer on the equator
• Using the AE map
• The sun is visible for about 12 hours

This is the expected observation:
When the sun first "rises" it is about 25% of the way around the circle of the equator.  The observer will see it first appear North East.  As the sin continues to rise it will move towards dues east.  When the sun passes overhead at local solar noon it will pass from due east.  As the sun continues to travel it will move North West until is finally "sets" about 25% of the way around the circle of the equator.

The position of the sun is dictated by the map.  This clearly doesn't match observations.  Not good news for the AE map.

The observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.  On that day the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.

The only possible FE map that allows the sun to rise due east, trace a straight path across the sky, then set due west is one with a straight equator.  However, this generally requires a Pac-Man feature.  Few people like to go with a Pac-Man map.

Quote
We only see the sun's projection on the atmolayer when it is nearby...
I have never seen evidence suggesting the sun is projected onto the air.  What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Quote
Given that at sea level we can only see perhaps 30 miles through the atmosphere
This is not a given.  We can see the stars through ALL the atmosphere as they are just above the horizon.  What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

It seems there is a lot of work to do on the equinox explanation.  Or, maybe just abandon the idea since it can't work.

18
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
« on: February 28, 2019, 07:57:26 PM »

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Thanks for the reply Tom but I believe the point still stands. There is no explanation as to why the sun should be viewed east anywhere (even at the equator) on a flat Earth during a sunrise.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

Thank you for the link, but it doesn't actually explain it.  The horizontal angle observation is very nearly 90 degrees due east, not perfectly 90 degrees, granted.  However, I cannot conceive of a possible landmass orientation that allows these angles to happen at the same time on that day.

From the article:
Quote
When the edge of the sun's area of light intersects the observer's circle of vision it will approach from the East, or near the East. The apparent sun at sunrise is on the rim of the sun's area of light and is racing upon the atmolayer along the equator or the observer's latitude line to the observer. However straight the observer's latitude line is in his or her local area where the observer can see will be how the sun appears in its initial bearing.

This does not explain how an observer in southern Chile or Iceland sees the sun rise nearly due east.

Finally, from the article:
Quote
If you were on the equator, and there was a race car (or jet ski) racing along the surface of the earth to you on the circular equator line, and you only see it until it is nearby, would you see it from the East or very near the East? If so, then that is the answer.
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

The only possible FE map that allows the sun to rise dues east, trace a straight path across the sky, then set dues west is one with a straight equator.  However, this requires Pac-Man.

So, there is a lot of work to do on the equinox explanation.  Or, maybe just abandon the idea since it can't work.

19
##### Flat Earth Community / Re: Dan Paladino to appear on The NonSequitur Show
« on: December 28, 2018, 07:23:29 PM »
Interesting. I am indeed talking to the guys at NonSeq about potentially making an appearance at some point.

I dropped the ball recently and stopped responding (things have been a bit crazy), but I have every intention of resuming contact. They did email me today to check in, but we haven't agreed a specific time and date.

Yes, things don't always come to fruition.

I hope you get a date figured out.  I will certainly watch it live.

That's also why I haven't mentioned it so far. As far as I understand, at this point it's just a hypothetical. To give you an example, I have been approached by Good Morning Britain on two separate occasions, and each time they ended up dropping the idea in the middle of making arrangements. Announcing these things too early can lead to disappointment

Are you in Britain or is that just who has contacted you without regard to your location?

20
##### Flat Earth Community / Re: Dan Paladino to appear on The NonSequitur Show
« on: December 28, 2018, 06:26:11 AM »
I sent a DM to the Non Sequitur show, it’s Pete Svarrior, not Dan.  Pete, why didn’t you say anything?

Apparently, I got the date wrong too.  Not sure what is the correct date.

Cool, should be a good show.

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