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1
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: Today at 07:30:09 AM »
Quote from: stack
Quote
CNBC clearly depicts both Joe Biden and Trump issuing their statements almost simultaneously in response to people freely roaming the interior of the building. By your logic Joe Biden was also pro-insurrection.

For one, it was the POTUS’ rally and mob, not Biden’s. Like the mob would listen to the one person who they thought stole the election and the whole reason why they were there.::) Ludicrous logic on your part.
For two, by my logic it took the president elect to prompt DJT to actually do something. Sad that it had to come to that

Actually, it's not Trump's Capitol building. Claiming that it's not Joe Biden's problem is a ridiculous excuse making.

I never said "it wasn't his problem." However, Biden certainly didn't create the problem.

So Joe Biden, the incoming president, sat around for hours watching the Capitol of the nation being invaded and he did nothing? By your very logic of Trump being an insurrectionist for calling for it to end at the time he did, Joe Biden is an insurrectionist for waiting around to call for it to end.

Umm, I think you forgot what Jan 6 was all about. It started with an all-star Trumpian rally billed as "Stop the Steal". And the rally was all about how Biden was an illegitimate president. How they all, with Mike Pence's help, could interrupt the proceedings scheduled at the Capitol that day and have the electoral votes sent back to the States for false electors to recast votes for Trump. You know, full-on anti-Biden. So what message could Biden have said to a mob that was expressly there to stop him from becoming President? "Hey everyone, I know you're all here to prevent me from becoming President and you think I stole the election, but could you please just stop what you're doing and chill out..."

So Biden comes out with a message after Trump has done nothing for hours after the breach and posts a President Elect video message imploring Trump to put a stop to it all because he was the only one who could. But had thus far refused to do anything.

Biden's message:

"I call on President Trump to go on national television now, to fulfill his oath and defend the Constitution and demand an end to this siege. This is not a protest — it is an insurrection," Biden says."

He was asking him to finally do something. Because only DJT had sway over the mob. No one else. Yet DJT was doing nothing to stop it, only encouraging it.

Incorrect. From the timeline you posted, minutes even before Trump ended his speech:

01:09 PM   Capitol Police chief to House & Senate Sergeant at Arms; wants emergency declaration & call in the Guard
01:49 PM   Capitol Police chief makes "frantic" call to Maj. Gen. Walker for Guard citing "dire emergency"

Trumps video was still 2.5 hours away.

What you posted just says that someone wanted to alert the Guard. Yet the guard wasn't deployed until 5:08 PM:

05:08 PM   Natl. Guard Cmdr. Gen. William Walker   receives deployment order   

You initially said Trump called in the Guard. He didn't. What is it about this sentence you don't understand - Someone just "wanted" the Guard? No they made a call to get the Guard, not just wanting them to show up at their leisure:

"01:49 PM   Capitol Police chief makes "frantic" call to Maj. Gen. Walker for Guard citing "dire emergency"

A request was made to call in the guard to Maj. Gen. Walker, the guy responsible for ordering the Guard. It's not like you can dial a 1-800 number to call in the Guard. You call Maj. Gen. Walker. Capitol Police Chief did so at 1:49.

Why the Guard didn't receive deployment orders until later is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter, a "frantic" call was made to call in the Guard because of a "dire emergency".
                        
By your logic the everyone who failed to alert the National Guard are also insurrectionists, including Mike Pence who didn't ask for the National Guard until 4:30. Where was everyone the hours prior while the capitol was being invaded according to you?

No, not my logic at all. The Capitol Police Chief first called for the Guard at 1:49. Pence was hunkered down in hiding with his family, probably a little busy at the time, you know, fearing that the mob may string him up. Not to mention Meadows freaked out about Pence calling the Guard saying to DJT that they shouldn't take it like Pence is calling the shots. There's a direct quote on this fact.

Who else should have called in the Guard? The only person I can think of is DJT. And he didn't.

2
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: July 04, 2022, 11:22:59 PM »
What is taking so long?

Likely because some of those early reports were of a single person entering the Capitol building through exit side doors as employees left, or of a single person in the building.

What reports are you referring to?


When there were numbers of people on the premises the Capitol Police also spent a good while claiming that they had it under control, which is why the Capitol Police did not request help from the National Guard until later on in the timeline. In the timeline the Capitol Police did not request help from the National Guard until after Trump made his video.

Incorrect. From the timeline you posted, minutes even before Trump ended his speech:

01:09 PM   Capitol Police chief to House & Senate Sergeant at Arms; wants emergency declaration & call in the Guard
01:49 PM   Capitol Police chief makes "frantic" call to Maj. Gen. Walker for Guard citing "dire emergency"

Trumps video was still 2.5 hours away.

CNBC clearly depicts both Joe Biden and Trump issuing their statements almost simultaneously in response to people freely roaming the interior of the building. By your logic Joe Biden was also pro-insurrection.

For one, it was the POTUS’ rally and mob, not Biden’s. Like the mob would listen to the one person who they thought stole the election and the whole reason why they were there.::) Ludicrous logic on your part.
For two, by my logic it took the president elect to prompt DJT to actually do something. Sad that it had to come to that

Actually her key witness was almost immediately discredited by the secret service.

Not discredited yet. She was under oath. When the SS guys go under oath with the threat of perjury, that’s when you get to claim that.

3
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: July 04, 2022, 06:38:58 PM »
He did tell them to go home when they were in the building. They were in the building when the video was published. They didn't get inside instantly.

Yes, he published his video hours after when he should have. Why did he wait so long to really call off the patriots and in doing so still peppered in his 'stop the steal' rhetoric and Pence's failing to block the proceedings? Seems like he wanted the mob to do what Pence wouldn't. You know, Sedition. Def: overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that tends toward rebellion against the established order.

According to the timeline you cited:

01:30 PM. Mob make way up Capitol steps; begin entering the Capitol   
04:17 PM   TRUMP video: praised mob & repeated claims of electoral fraud: “We love you. You're very special.”


Yes, short-bus 'special'.

That's 2:45 minutes after the breach. Not to mention all of the mayhem that led up to the breach, gate crashing, wall climbing, bear spray assaulting, hammering, window/door smashing, and spearing:   
1 p.m. - An initial wave of protesters storms the outer police barrier around the Capitol.   

Nearing three hours after the breach and you're like, "They were in the building when the video was published. They didn't get inside instantly." ::)

02:14 PM  Mob arrive on the landing near the office where Pence and his family are hiding

We're still 2 hours away from your Trump video. What's the hold-up?   

02:24 PM. TRUMP tweet [Pence] "didn't have the courage to do what should have been done"

02:26 PM   TRUMP calls Sen. T.Tuberville, told him do more to block counting of electoral votes.                                 

So 10 minutes after the mob is outside Pences's office where he is hiding, Trump tweets out how Mike doesn't have the courage to stop the steal and is calling a lawmaker minutes later to halt the count...

A few minutes later...
02:29 PM. Mob erect gallows on Capitol grounds, shout, “Hang Mike Pence”

02:30 PM. Mob enters Senate chamber   

We're still 1:45 minutes away from the Trump video. What is taking so long?   
                        
According to this the VP didn't even ask the Defense Secretary to "clear the Capitol" until after Trump had already posted his video.

The point is, you claimed, "Actually Trump said that he deployed the National Guard and Federal Law Enforcement."

He didn't.

Quote from: stack
Apparently incorrect:

Republican Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming said that it was former Vice President Mike Pence, not former President Donald Trump, who called for the military to defend the U.S. Capitol during the riot.

You should get a better source. Liz Cheney is the anti-trumper who is leading the discredited Jan 6 investigation. Here she is hugging the key witness:



Why should I have a better source? She's a Congresswoman. An authority on the matter. You like authorities on the matter. You are not an authority on the matter. She is.

"Discredited"? By you? Your argument is hugging a key witness discredits the entire proceedings? You'll have to do way better than that I'm afraid.

4
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: July 04, 2022, 06:53:28 AM »
He didn't stop them.

When they entered the building he told them to go home:

That video is 2 hours after the initial breach of the building. 1 hour after the breach he tweeted: "remain peaceful".

13:10
Mr Trump ends his speech with the words: "We fight. We fight like hell and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.”

14:13
Secret Service quickly and suddenly evacuate Mr Pence from the Senate floor.
The protesters break through the windows. They push inside, hopping through the broken glass. They then kick open the doors to let others in. Some wear hoods and helmets, some hold cameras or Confederate flags.

14:24
President Trump tweets about Mr Pence.


Rioters start to spread through the buildings. Others break in from outside through various doors around the building.
They open the east side door of the rotunda to let more people in, flooding through the doors and overwhelming the officers.

15:13
Trump tweets asking for people to "remain peaceful”.

16:17
Trump releases a video in which he tells the mob to go home.


Quote from: Dr Van Nostrand
he didn't call Homeland Security

Actually Trump said that he deployed the National Guard and Federal Law Enforcement. See the 11 second mark in the following video: "I immediately deployed the National Guard and Federal Law Enforcement to secure the building"

It was also corroborated by officers in testimony that the National Guard was called:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-117hhrg44854/html/CHRG-117hhrg44854.htm

    " This team of over 40 officers and non-
    commissioned officers immediately worked to recall the 154 D.C.
    National Guard personnel from their current missions,
    reorganize them, re-equip them, and begin to redeploy them to
    the Capitol. We also began to coordinate for the arrival of
    neighboring states that were committing National Guard forces
    into the District of Columbia. Simultaneously, we had to gather
    materials, do surveys, and plan for barrier materials to be
    moved to the Capitol in order to protect that institution and
    you, and many, many other tasks. This work continued with utter
    focus and urgency throughout the night of January 6 and well
    afterwards. "

Apparently incorrect:

Republican Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming said that it was former Vice President Mike Pence, not former President Donald Trump, who called for the military to defend the U.S. Capitol during the riot.

Mr. Trump “placed no call to any element of the U.S. government to instruct that the Capitol be defended,” Ms. Cheney said.

She said Mr. Trump did not call his Secretary of Defense on Jan. 6, or speak to his Attorney General or the Department of Homeland Security.

“Trump gave no order to deploy the National Guard that day, and made no effort to work with the Department of Justice to coordinate and deploy law enforcement assets,” Ms. Cheney said. “But Mike Pence did each of those things.”

She quoted testimony from Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who said he got multiple calls from Mr. Pence on Jan. 6.

“He was very animated, and he issued very explicit, very direct, unambiguous orders. There was no question about that. And I can get you the exact quotes,” Gen. Milley said. “But he was very animated, very direct, very firm to Sec. Miller. Get the military down here, get the guard down here. Put down this situation, et cetera.”

When Gen. Milley recalled his conversation with Mark Meadows, Mr. Trump’s chief of staff, on Jan. 6, he said Mr. Meadows told him: “'We have to kill the narrative that the Vice President is making all the decisions. We need to establish the narrative, you know, that the President is still in charge and that things are steady or stable.' … I immediately interpreted that as politics. Politics. Politics. Red flag for me, personally. No action. But I remember it distinctly. And I don’t do political narratives.”

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/jan-6-hearings-news-live/card/cheney-trump-never-called-military-to-defend-u-s-capitol-on-jan-6-but-pence-did-js5yUaivfa2Yz5QCZ77p

He should have sent out a remain peaceful tweet even before breach, when people started to smash their way in. He didn't.

He immediately (10 minutes after breach) ginned-up the situation with his nasty tweet targeting Pence for his lack of courage to gum up the proceedings.

He should have called in the Nat. Guard immediately after things started to get out of control, even prior to breach. He didn't.

In fact, he didn't call in the Nat Guard at all. Pence did.

5
Flat Earth Community / Re: flat-earthers arguments
« on: July 03, 2022, 06:59:52 PM »
Hi, guys!
I am a Brazilian student, and I am doing research on the Flat Earth, and I would like to know what your arguments are regarding the questions of the spherical earth believers.

A good place to start:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Frequently_Asked_Questions

6
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: July 02, 2022, 08:48:51 PM »
It doesn't matter what I believe about your post.

Of course it doesn't matter what you believe. I'm just curious as to where someone like you with your post history stands on the topic at hand.

You were talking a lot about personhood, victims, etc. So a natural clarifying question, which is kinda at the root of the entire debate on the topic, is when is something considered a "person"?

So, from a person with your POV, it's a curiosity to see where you stand. As in is a blastocyte a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?

Or is it only a person when the blastocyte becomes an embryo 3 weeks after conception?
Now that you finally agree, we can put this to rest.
[/quote]

I would say no, a blastocyte is not a person. So since you said we agree, I'm thinking that you too agree a blastocyte is not a person, therefore, if aborted, it is not a victim and is not murder and is not a crime. Thanks for clarifying & agreeing.

7
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: July 02, 2022, 08:39:22 PM »
Trump must've been riding in the front seat to pull off this one.

Per protocol, right?

The reports, whether true or not, is that he was in the second row behind the driver and was lunging toward the front seat driver.

The normal presidential 'beast' limo has a glass divider between the front seats and rear. Apparently, only the President has a button to lower it.

However, the Chevy SUV version of the beast that Trump was in I don't think has a divider.

8
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: July 02, 2022, 05:41:42 PM »
And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?
I refer you back to the topic of abortion.

Abortion takes place at a time after conception.

When does a pregnancy start?

The start of pregnancy is actually the first day of your last menstrual period. This is called the gestational age, or menstrual age. It’s about two weeks ahead of when conception actually occurs. Though it may seem strange, the date of the first day of your last period will be an important date when determining your due date. Your healthcare provider will ask you about this date and will use it to figure out how far along you are in your pregnancy.

What happens right after conception?

Within 24 hours after fertilization, the egg begins rapidly dividing into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days after conception. Then the fertilized egg (now called a blastocyte) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Once there, its next job is to attach to the endometrium. This is called implantation.
Within three weeks, the blastocyte cells ultimately form a little ball, or an embryo. By this time, the first nerve cells have formed.


So do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?
Again, the topic is abortion, not conception.

Correct. And here's a question about abortion, the topic: Do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?
It doesn't matter what I believe about your post.

Of course it doesn't matter what you believe. I'm just curious as to where someone like you with your post history stands on the topic at hand.

You were talking a lot about personhood, victims, etc. So a natural clarifying question, which is kinda at the root of the entire debate on the topic, is when is something considered a "person"?

So, from a person with your POV, it's a curiosity to see where you stand. As in is a blastocyte a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?

Or is it only a person when the blastocyte becomes an embryo 3 weeks after conception?

9
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: July 01, 2022, 10:43:05 PM »
And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?
I refer you back to the topic of abortion.

Abortion takes place at a time after conception.

When does a pregnancy start?

The start of pregnancy is actually the first day of your last menstrual period. This is called the gestational age, or menstrual age. It’s about two weeks ahead of when conception actually occurs. Though it may seem strange, the date of the first day of your last period will be an important date when determining your due date. Your healthcare provider will ask you about this date and will use it to figure out how far along you are in your pregnancy.

What happens right after conception?

Within 24 hours after fertilization, the egg begins rapidly dividing into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days after conception. Then the fertilized egg (now called a blastocyte) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Once there, its next job is to attach to the endometrium. This is called implantation.
Within three weeks, the blastocyte cells ultimately form a little ball, or an embryo. By this time, the first nerve cells have formed.


So do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?
Again, the topic is abortion, not conception.

Correct. And here's a question about abortion, the topic: Do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?

10
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: July 01, 2022, 08:59:14 PM »
And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?
I refer you back to the topic of abortion.

Abortion takes place at a time after conception.

When does a pregnancy start?

The start of pregnancy is actually the first day of your last menstrual period. This is called the gestational age, or menstrual age. It’s about two weeks ahead of when conception actually occurs. Though it may seem strange, the date of the first day of your last period will be an important date when determining your due date. Your healthcare provider will ask you about this date and will use it to figure out how far along you are in your pregnancy.

What happens right after conception?

Within 24 hours after fertilization, the egg begins rapidly dividing into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days after conception. Then the fertilized egg (now called a blastocyte) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Once there, its next job is to attach to the endometrium. This is called implantation.
Within three weeks, the blastocyte cells ultimately form a little ball, or an embryo. By this time, the first nerve cells have formed.


So do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?

11
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: July 01, 2022, 05:44:51 PM »
Anyone willing to offer direct testimony of what happened has not been called to testify.

Coming soon, I hope...

Yesterday:

"I don't want to get into too many details," Cheney said. "The committee has spoken to both Mr. Ornato and Mr. Engel, and we welcome additional testimony under oath from both of them, and from anybody else in the Secret Service who has information about any of these issues."

Cheney added, "We have been working with the Secret Service, we have interviewed, as I said, a number of individuals in the Secret Service. We will continue to do so. And I think it is important that their testimony be under oath.
"

12
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: July 01, 2022, 05:39:46 PM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.
This is just so lazy. You're telling me I'm wrong for pasting a literal law that explicitly excludes abortions and pretending like you understand legal terms better than people who write the laws.
Lazy?

The source I posted is a legal source, defining what a victim is.

A victim is a person, period, end of sentence.

That means when an abortion happens, a person is killed.

You have to define first whether a fetus is a ‘person’ or not. Then you can make the claim that when an abortion happens, a person is killed. That’s pretty much the crux of the whole issue; is a fetus a person at 6 weeks gestation? 12 weeks? 24 weeks? At conception?
The law already defines it.

If you murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder.

Pretty clear cut.

Not really that clear cut:

Some of the state-specific feticide laws considered the fetus to be a person if it is viable, meaning it can survive out of the womb independently.

Some States, the ones you would expect, consider a fetus a "person" at any stage of pregnancy, hence the double homicide. Other States say a fetus is a "person" at viability, not before.
And even some States have no laws on the books regarding this at all.

So no, the blanket statement of "murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder," is not true in all cases.
Of course, it isn't true in all cases due to the fact there are people who want to substitute their own reality for actual reality so they can kill a person via abortion without fear of external consequence.

People who do this are no better than John Wayne Gacy or Jeffery Dahmer or Ted Bundy.

The reality is that a victim = a person.

And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?

13
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: June 30, 2022, 07:25:15 PM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.
This is just so lazy. You're telling me I'm wrong for pasting a literal law that explicitly excludes abortions and pretending like you understand legal terms better than people who write the laws.
Lazy?

The source I posted is a legal source, defining what a victim is.

A victim is a person, period, end of sentence.

That means when an abortion happens, a person is killed.

You have to define first whether a fetus is a ‘person’ or not. Then you can make the claim that when an abortion happens, a person is killed. That’s pretty much the crux of the whole issue; is a fetus a person at 6 weeks gestation? 12 weeks? 24 weeks? At conception?
The law already defines it.

If you murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder.

Pretty clear cut.

Not really that clear cut:

Some of the state-specific feticide laws considered the fetus to be a person if it is viable, meaning it can survive out of the womb independently.

Some States, the ones you would expect, consider a fetus a "person" at any stage of pregnancy, hence the double homicide. Other States say a fetus is a "person" at viability, not before.
And even some States have no laws on the books regarding this at all.

So no, the blanket statement of "murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder," is not true in all cases.

14
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: June 30, 2022, 08:43:45 AM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.
This is just so lazy. You're telling me I'm wrong for pasting a literal law that explicitly excludes abortions and pretending like you understand legal terms better than people who write the laws.
Lazy?

The source I posted is a legal source, defining what a victim is.

A victim is a person, period, end of sentence.

That means when an abortion happens, a person is killed.

You have to define first whether a fetus is a ‘person’ or not. Then you can make the claim that when an abortion happens, a person is killed. That’s pretty much the crux of the whole issue; is a fetus a person at 6 weeks gestation? 12 weeks? 24 weeks? At conception?

Once you’ve defined that, then comes the sticky wicket around exceptions for the mothers health & rape and incest. And perhaps even viability of the fetus.

The easy out is a person exists at conception and there are no exceptions, all abortions under any circumstances are forbidden. Is that where you are?

15
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: June 30, 2022, 07:24:34 AM »
Your argument seems to be that they could have done something different. Whatever. They chose not to take the path you outlined. And that is that.
And how, exactly, does that affect the legality of that path?

I'm not sure I understand the question. But Tom's point is that if the Southern States wanted to keep slavery and leave the Union and the North was like, "Ok cool, let's draw up the paperwork" - That would be legal. I agree. If everyone agrees, great, off we go. No harm, no foul, legal or otherwise. But that's not what happened, obvi. Why the North didn't just let the South bail out of the Union, I don't know. But they obviously didn't.

The legal issue we're discussing is around the post-Civil War decision handed down by SCOTUS in Texas v White. Nothing to do with the legality of the North deciding to not let the South secede back in 1861. The ruling in question was made a few years after the war ended and a year or so before Reconstruction basically ended. Though I suppose retroactively, it basically said it was unconstitutional for the South to secede prior to the war and the Feds didn't recognize secession States as a separate entity from the Union throughout the war - It was considered a rebellion instead.

Probably similar to how Jan 6th is classified, was it a protest, a demonstration, a rebellion, an insurrection, or a coup. Depends on who you ask.

Not sure if I addressed your question.

16
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: June 30, 2022, 06:56:07 AM »
Yes, the definition of unilateral was posted already. It means that if the blue and red states don't like each other's laws and would rather govern themselves, secession is possible.

How do you get that from this:

"The Court further held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas legislature..."

Essentially, they (Texas) could not unilaterally (may NOT take the authorized action to secede without the consent, approval, vote, or joinder of any other person, such as Owners, mortgagees, and the Association (The US Governmment).

It's pretty clear. What laws or rulings are you looking at that say the SCOTUS' interpretation of the Constitution was wrong?

As bad as the constiutional argument was to get there in that case, the feeling Justices wanted to express about secession had at least a little logic.

They are saying that single state could not do it alone. If the Nortern states decided that they did not want to tolerate slavery in the Union they could have decided to split apart from the Southern states in secession. There was a secessionist solution there. They could have mutually split apart from each other if they wanted to, without resorting to violence.

They could of, but didn't. Hence a little thing called the 'Civil War'.

Your argument seems to be that they could have done something different. Whatever. They chose not to take the path you outlined. And that is that.

You were simply incorrect about it being impossible to leave and about it necessitating war. If the states do not like each other's laws they are free to split up, even by the opinion of that court.

Who said something was "impossible"? Anything is possible, but the fact remains that SCOTUS ruled secession unconstitutional. Period.
States are allowed to split themselves. There have been attempts to do so in at least California and Texas. But as evidenced by the Texas vs White decision, States are not allowed to wholly secede even if their people vote for it. Simple as that. And, even though those States did secede, the SCOTUS said that's all fine and good, but under our Constitutional eye, the secession was not recognized and the Feds determined they were still part of the union, even during Reconstruction. It's all right there in the decision.

As an alternate to secession, it was also possible for the states to simply decide that slavery was prohibited with the proper process of a Constitutional amendment and could have simply accepted the loss with sportsmanship and understanding if the country was not ready for it. This would have solved the issue. A number of countries largely came to reject slavery, so there is no excuse for calling for violence or workarounds when you are unable to pass a law in your own. Britain was able to pass legislation properly and end slavery without bloodshed. France managed to do it. Spain did it. Germany did it. All did it by their established and accepted process of abridging their national laws.

We're not talking about "could of's" because the fact of the matter is the actual history that occurred. Not what you would have preferred as an option.

In this case when you are told that you need a Constitutional amendment for abortion and to follow the rules the liberal response is "Noooo" and an insistance that everyone must accept an unwritten law about abortion. It is pretty sad that you can't seem to accept rules and the proper process of amending the Constitution to your liking.

It's sad they I can't accept the rules? Talk about talking out both sides of your mouth. As has already been shown, SCOTUS deemed secession unconstitutional. There's your rule to follow which you don't seem to want to accept.
As for abortion, the SCOTUS ruled that RvW is out and States can make their own rules. I'm not happy about it, find fault with it, but SCOTUS has ruled. So I must abide by the rule and work toward getting it changed.

Same for you. If you don't like the secession ruling from SCOTUS, work to have it changed. I'm not sure why you're getting all hypocritical and not grasping these simple facts.

17
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: June 30, 2022, 04:02:26 AM »
Yes, the definition of unilateral was posted already. It means that if the blue and red states don't like each other's laws and would rather govern themselves, secession is possible.

How do you get that from this:

"The Court further held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas legislature..."

Essentially, they (Texas) could not unilaterally (may NOT take the authorized action to secede without the consent, approval, vote, or joinder of any other person, such as Owners, mortgagees, and the Association (The US Governmment).

It's pretty clear. What laws or rulings are you looking at that say the SCOTUS' interpretation of the Constitution was wrong?

18
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: June 30, 2022, 03:05:15 AM »
Interesting interpretation of constitutional law you're making. I'll stick with lawyers making the actual interpretation, not you.

In the meantime, according to lawyers, you are wrong:

1.1 The distinction between a (mere) justification and having a claim-right
We begin with a distinction between unilateral and consensual secession. The former is secession without the consent of the state from which a portion of territory is taken by the seceding group or without constitutional sanction.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/secession/

From Cornell’s Legal Information Institute (LII), Justia, and Chicago-Kent College of Law re Texas v White 1869:

Conclusion
In a 5-to-3 decision, the Court held that Texas did indeed have the right to bring suit. The Court held that Texas had remained a state, despite joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision. The Court further held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas legislature--even if ratified by a majority of Texans--were "absolutely null." Even during the period of rebellion, however, the Court found that Texas continued to be a state.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1850-1900/74us700

Wow. You did not even read your own posted text you pasted from "the lawyers" -

"The Court further held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union"

Law Definition:

Unilaterally means that the Declarant may take the authorized action without the consent, approval, vote, or joinder of any other person, such as Owners, mortgagees, and the Association.
https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/unilaterally

"The Court further held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas legislature..."

19
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: June 30, 2022, 12:33:34 AM »
Interesting interpretation of constitutional law you're making. I'll stick with lawyers making the actual interpretation, not you.

In the meantime, according to lawyers, you are wrong:

1.1 The distinction between a (mere) justification and having a claim-right
We begin with a distinction between unilateral and consensual secession. The former is secession without the consent of the state from which a portion of territory is taken by the seceding group or without constitutional sanction.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/secession/

From Cornell’s Legal Information Institute (LII), Justia, and Chicago-Kent College of Law re Texas v White 1869:

Conclusion
In a 5-to-3 decision, the Court held that Texas did indeed have the right to bring suit. The Court held that Texas had remained a state, despite joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision. The Court further held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas legislature--even if ratified by a majority of Texans--were "absolutely null." Even during the period of rebellion, however, the Court found that Texas continued to be a state.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1850-1900/74us700

20
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: June 29, 2022, 09:22:40 PM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.

In Citizens United v. FEC, the Supreme Court asserted that corporations are people. Seems like a lot of things can be a person. Until such time that States out-and-out ban all abortions with no exceptions, all abortions are crimes against victims/persons?

If the mother dies and her death could have been prevented if she aborted, yet a law states that abortion under any circumstances is a crime, is the mother not a person, a victim? Who deserves to live, the Mother or the fetus?

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