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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Iceman on January 11, 2021, 12:34:19 AM

Title: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Iceman on January 11, 2021, 12:34:19 AM
Even though Trump is to blame for what happened, I figured I'd start a separate thread because I'm curious about where you see last week's shenanigans falling on the spectrum of protest - coup.

I have a hard time viewing it as an attempt at a full blown government overthrow because, for the most part, it was just a bunch of angry, misinformed, and thankfully unorganized, group of far right republicans and full-on racists. On the other hand, they stormed the Capitol while lawmakers were performing arguably their most important duty within the american democratic process. I cant help but feel like if the people who stormed the building had breached the floor before lawmakers and the electoral votes had been evacuated, this would be a very different story, one that would likely still be developing.

Most(?) People went there to protest, but in my mind any breaching the capitol is guilty of a crime. And the fact is that hundreds or thousands of the attendees came equipped and ready/hoping for violent clashes with police and or lawmakers - pipe bombs, blades, bats, combat gear, zip ties, nooses - shows how close things came, especially with the ridiculous unpreparedness of the capitol police.

The one bright side to all this is that, provided there isnt a round two on or around inauguration day, this can be used to highlight the strength -not the weakness - of american democracy. Not many countries can withstand an assault on the heart of their democratic institutions and be essentially back to business the next day.

The ugly side is plain to see, with 5 people dead, and the intensifying of rhetoric and calls to action for a second event in the near future...
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Rama Set on January 11, 2021, 01:25:24 AM
I don’t think it was an organized coup. I think there were people there who had malicious intent towards lawmakers though. What happened is almost the textbook example of sedition: violence to disrupt the government carrying out its duties.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 11, 2021, 04:20:28 AM
On the other hand, they stormed the Capitol

They didn't "storm the capitol." They were invited in.

https://twitter.com/GlobalNews77/status/1347616948826288128

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1347615998610911234

(https://i.imgur.com/1dCMBBZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZW60QmG.png)

https://youtu.be/2Hpj-CAJB6Y
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Lord Dave on January 11, 2021, 04:42:30 AM
On the other hand, they stormed the Capitol

They didn't "storm the capitol." They were invited in.

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1347615998610911234

(https://i.imgur.com/1dCMBBZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZW60QmG.png)

https://youtu.be/2Hpj-CAJB6Y
Except for the one cop trying despirately to stop a few hundred people.
And the secret service barricading doors and shooting people who tried to get through.

But other than THAT....
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Fortuna on January 11, 2021, 04:46:17 AM
Except for the one cop trying despirately to stop a few hundred people.

It makes you wonder how he even passed the police test to get the job.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 11, 2021, 05:10:48 AM
Except for the one cop trying despirately to stop a few hundred people.

It makes you wonder how he even passed the police test to get the job.

It was probably Honk.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Fortuna on January 11, 2021, 05:29:57 AM
Except for the one cop trying despirately to stop a few hundred people.

It makes you wonder how he even passed the police test to get the job.

It was probably Honk.

Gottem
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: AATW on January 11, 2021, 08:13:22 AM
There’s no doubt that in some of their minds it was a revolution. Trouble is, as Tom shows on here daily, they are mostly sadly deluded and inept.

Aren’t you, Elizabeth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqIdnYxm_WM

(Invited in. Lolz)

So the end result was a load of people running around inside the building with no real plan. Rather nicely summed up by the dude who came armed with a taser, hid it in his trousers and ended up tasing himself in the balls repeatedly while trying to steal a painting and ended up having a heart attack and dying.

They were revolutionaries in the same way that FErs are “scientists”. They come across more like a bunch of kids “playing revolution”. Some of them want to have one but none of them have the faintest clue how to do it.

In brief:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dccWrg2VtYk
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: garygreen on January 11, 2021, 02:27:39 PM
worst lenin impression i've ever seen.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: stack on January 11, 2021, 05:40:41 PM
Why did some folks have zip tie handcuffs, if they were just "demonstrators", "protestors"? Was there some loose coordinated effort to constrain people and why?

(https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2021/01/zip-cuffs-capitol-2-scaled.jpg)
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: crutonius on January 11, 2021, 06:17:40 PM
Why did some folks have zip tie handcuffs, if they were just "demonstrators", "protestors"? Was there some loose coordinated effort to constrain people and why?

(https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2021/01/zip-cuffs-capitol-2-scaled.jpg)

Ah.  There's an explanation for that.  You see an officer dropped those zip ties at some point during this incident and this good citizen dressed in tactical gear just happened to pick it up and was combing the halls looking for who it belonged to.

No I'm not making that up.  That's actually what he said.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Lord Dave on January 11, 2021, 06:20:30 PM
Why did some folks have zip tie handcuffs, if they were just "demonstrators", "protestors"? Was there some loose coordinated effort to constrain people and why?

(https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2021/01/zip-cuffs-capitol-2-scaled.jpg)

Ah.  There's an explanation for that.  You see an officer dropped those zip ties at some point during this incident and this good citizen dressed in tactical gear just happened to pick it up and was combing the halls looking for who it belonged to.

No I'm not making that up.  That's actually what he said.

O.o
God that sounds like a bug ass lie.

Also... Explain the gallows they brought.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: stack on January 11, 2021, 06:27:05 PM
Why did some folks have zip tie handcuffs, if they were just "demonstrators", "protestors"? Was there some loose coordinated effort to constrain people and why?

(https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2021/01/zip-cuffs-capitol-2-scaled.jpg)

Ah.  There's an explanation for that.  You see an officer dropped those zip ties at some point during this incident and this good citizen dressed in tactical gear just happened to pick it up and was combing the halls looking for who it belonged to.

No I'm not making that up.  That's actually what he said.

Looks like this nice fellow seemed to be looking to return a dropped bundle of zip ties to an officer as well...

(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/01/696/392/Larry-Brock-Getty.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 11, 2021, 06:34:08 PM
Again, Republicans. There are going to be preppers amongst them and so it can be no surprise someone has brought zip ties. I'll also bet there were people making hog roasts out of the back of their trucks, but that doesn't convey the narrative of danger the awful left wing media are pushing.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Iceman on January 11, 2021, 06:45:40 PM
Again, Republicans. There are going to be preppers amongst them and so it can be no surprise someone has brought zip ties. I'll also bet there were people making hog roasts out of the back of their trucks, but that doesn't convey the narrative of danger the awful left wing media are pushing.

You're not totally wrong. It's a bit disingenuous to label everyone that went to the Capitol as violent insurrectionists, but there were thousands of participants whose actions can only be described as violent and seditious. It's fair to compare the actions of participants and the reporting of the incidents between the 6th and the more widespread BLM protests. It's not fair to try to put them in the same category though - this is comparing apples to an orange-faced twat (sorry I couldnt resist).

But it's also not just the awful left wing media pushing the idea of violence. A quick look on Parler and thedonald.win shows the support that thousands and thousands of people have for the violence that occurred on the 6th, and perhaps worse, the escalation in violence that is being called for on the 19th.

The scary part is that it's not just a bunch of backwater racist rednecks yelling about ...well, whatever racist shit they care about. Those assjoles were (and are) supported by bankers, ex-military, doctors.... a broad cross-section of the millions of republicans and other far(ther)-right groups. I feel like Biden's attempts at talking tough since the 6th are going to make things worse
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: TomInAustin on January 11, 2021, 07:22:45 PM
Even though Trump is to blame for what happened, I figured I'd start a separate thread because I'm curious about where you see last week's shenanigans falling on the spectrum of protest - coup.

I have a hard time viewing it as an attempt at a full blown government overthrow because, for the most part, it was just a bunch of angry, misinformed, and thankfully unorganized, group of far right republicans and full-on racists. On the other hand, they stormed the Capitol while lawmakers were performing arguably their most important duty within the american democratic process. I cant help but feel like if the people who stormed the building had breached the floor before lawmakers and the electoral votes had been evacuated, this would be a very different story, one that would likely still be developing.

Most(?) People went there to protest, but in my mind any breaching the capitol is guilty of a crime. And the fact is that hundreds or thousands of the attendees came equipped and ready/hoping for violent clashes with police and or lawmakers - pipe bombs, blades, bats, combat gear, zip ties, nooses - shows how close things came, especially with the ridiculous unpreparedness of the capitol police.

The one bright side to all this is that, provided there isnt a round two on or around inauguration day, this can be used to highlight the strength -not the weakness - of american democracy. Not many countries can withstand an assault on the heart of their democratic institutions and be essentially back to business the next day.

The ugly side is plain to see, with 5 people dead, and the intensifying of rhetoric and calls to action for a second event in the near future...

We had 3 things at work. 

1. A bunch of rednecks wandering around high fiving (hardly a coup)
2. Some idiots that are going to do hard time for breaking in
3. The press that raved about Coups and insurrections.   
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Rama Set on January 11, 2021, 07:30:42 PM

We had 3 things at work. 

1. A bunch of rednecks wandering around high fiving (hardly a coup)
Agreed
Quote
2. Some idiots that are going to do hard time for breaking in

It was certainly more than breaking and entering.  Some were armed, there was violence attached to their unlawful trespass, and they used the violence to disprupt the operation of government, which is sedition.

Quote
3. The press that raved about Coups and insurrections.   

There is definitely some hyperbole from the left.  There is certainly some of the right who are trying to make this seem like no big deal, which is also wrong.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: stack on January 11, 2021, 07:30:55 PM
Again, Republicans. There are going to be preppers amongst them and so it can be no surprise someone has brought zip ties. I'll also bet there were people making hog roasts out of the back of their trucks, but that doesn't convey the narrative of danger the awful left wing media are pushing.

What's to "push" in the media? The media question is, "Why are these "preppers", as you call them, got bundles of zip-tie handcuffs?" What sort of prep is that prepping for? Granted, looks like just 2 guys. But still, honestly, it's a smidge chilling. Mix that with some of the death chants and busting into the chamber where their "enemy" was evokes a lot of imagery that is decidedly not looking to give hugs.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Iceman on January 11, 2021, 07:32:30 PM
I agree calling it a coup is a stretch...but it was a bunch worse that you make it out to be in those three tame categories, with the fake news media coming out as the worst...

From an FBI bulletin:

"As of 10 January, armed protests are being planned at all 50 state capitols from 16 January through at least 20 January, and at the US Capitol from 17 January through 20 January,”

Sounds like they're planning a lot more than high-fiving each other...
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 11, 2021, 09:07:50 PM
Let's not forget that virtually every computer in the Capitol has to be assumed compromised, every room thoroughly scanned for bugs, etc. It's not as exciting for TV to talk about, but this whole thing was a perfect distraction for malicious actors; very likely the whole point of the "protest".
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: AATW on January 11, 2021, 09:14:12 PM
Let's not forget that virtually every computer in the Capitol has to be assumed compromised, every room thoroughly scanned for bugs, etc. It's not as exciting for TV to talk about, but this whole thing was a perfect distraction for malicious actors; very likely the whole point of the "protest".
I think that's giving them a bit too much credit.
It was a coup in the same way that your 6 year old is definitely leaving home and you find them at the nearest intersection because they're not allowed to cross the road on their own. They're mostly a load of kids running around causing mischief. Adult kids, but still.
Some of them probably had pretentions of something more sinister but it doesn't feel like there was any real plan or co-ordination behind it.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 11, 2021, 09:38:47 PM
I think that's giving them a bit too much credit.
Let me try to rephrase, since I don't think we actually disagree:

The mastermind behind the whole situation unleashed a bunch of useful idiots on the Capitol, and while that was going down, a small handful of people who aren't completely mindless could have easily walked in among the crowd and done a lot of good covert work. Since the date and location were planned, and floor plans were exchanged well in advance of the event (they weren't even really hiding it), it speaks to reason that SOME of them were organised.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Lord Dave on January 11, 2021, 09:58:08 PM
I think that's giving them a bit too much credit.
Let me try to rephrase, since I don't think we actually disagree:

The mastermind behind the whole situation unleashed a bunch of useful idiots on the Capitol, and while that was going down, a small handful of people who aren't completely mindless could have easily walked in among the crowd and done a lot of good covert work. Since the date and location were planned, and floor plans were exchanged well in advance of the event (they weren't even really hiding it), it speaks to reason that SOME of them were organised.

Iran, China, Russia... all of those would have been idiots to NOT have someone stationed at the protests just to keep an eye on them.  And this would have been one helll of an opportunity to get into highly sensitive data.  Even if it wasn't planned, it was still something any spy would have jumped on.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: AATW on January 11, 2021, 10:07:07 PM
I think that's giving them a bit too much credit.
Let me try to rephrase, since I don't think we actually disagree:

The mastermind behind the whole situation unleashed a bunch of useful idiots on the Capitol, and while that was going down, a small handful of people who aren't completely mindless could have easily walked in among the crowd and done a lot of good covert work. Since the date and location were planned, and floor plans were exchanged well in advance of the event (they weren't even really hiding it), it speaks to reason that SOME of them were organised.
Interesting. Certainly plausible.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Iceman on January 11, 2021, 10:07:57 PM
Yeah, Pete's right. Basically all the IT and security staff are now working overtime doing asset management and assessment stuff. Everything is assumed compromised, and basically everything needs to be inspected for potential monitoring and recording devices. Everything down to removing and inspecting outlet covers, light switches, ceiling fans, toilet paper roll holders...

Its exceedingly unlikely that foreign agents didnt try to take advantage of the mob of useful idiots having their day in the sun last week
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 12, 2021, 01:48:15 AM
Doesn't sound like trespassing if they were welcomed into the building.

https://www.businessinsider.com/capitol-police-officers-suspended-after-pro-trump-riots-2021-1?international=true&r=US&IR=T

(https://i.imgur.com/AApYCJo.png)
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: stack on January 12, 2021, 02:58:21 AM
Doesn't sound like trespassing if they were welcomed into the building.

https://www.businessinsider.com/capitol-police-officers-suspended-after-pro-trump-riots-2021-1?international=true&r=US&IR=T

(https://i.imgur.com/AApYCJo.png)

Isn’t that the Dracula defense? Or do I have the wrong monster?
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Iceman on January 12, 2021, 03:09:44 AM
Doesn't sound like trespassing if they were welcomed into the building.

https://www.businessinsider.com/capitol-police-officers-suspended-after-pro-trump-riots-2021-1?international=true&r=US&IR=T

(https://i.imgur.com/AApYCJo.png)

Isn’t that the Dracula defense? Or do I have the wrong monster?

It's the South Park Chewbacca Defense.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: juner on January 12, 2021, 08:30:24 PM
Trouble is, as Tom shows on here daily, they are mostly sadly deluded and inept.

I’m sure Tom still had a nice day out though.


Stop doing this. Warned.

Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: AATW on January 12, 2021, 08:44:09 PM
It’s a fair cop, guv.
Although the second one was obviously a joke.
But fine, I’ll behave.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Iceman on January 12, 2021, 08:53:45 PM
It doesnt sound like the USCP is going to be doing a lot of 'welcoming' for the next round of visitors to the capitol... No ones worried about the 'optics' of having national guard at the capitol for round 2, but police planners think having a strong presence will be enough to deter 'protestors' from violence like last time. I'm not so sure...

The next wave of 'prostestors' are promising to be armed and are putting together Rules of engagement so that participants know when to shoot...

Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: TomInAustin on January 12, 2021, 09:35:31 PM

We had 3 things at work. 

1. A bunch of rednecks wandering around high fiving (hardly a coup)
Agreed
Quote
2. Some idiots that are going to do hard time for breaking in

It was certainly more than breaking and entering.  Some were armed, there was violence attached to their unlawful trespass, and they used the violence to disprupt the operation of government, which is sedition.

Quote
3. The press that raved about Coups and insurrections.   

There is definitely some hyperbole from the left.  There is certainly some of the right who are trying to make this seem like no big deal, which is also wrong.


The problem is what it's always been, the mad dogs. Other than motive there is not a lot of difference between the marchers in BLM and the rednecks walking around the capitol grounds taking pics. What set it all apart were the mad dogs that showed up for BLM and for this clusterfuck.

For once someone actually shot one of the mad dogs.
Title: Re: Capitol hill, jan 6: protest, attempted coup, or something in between?
Post by: Iceman on January 18, 2021, 03:25:30 AM
Round 2 starts this week...?

http://imgur.com/gallery/KdV49RS
Boogaloo boys in Michigan and ohio capitols

Not seeing any details on accuracy or timing of the photos in the linked post which was taken from a couple reddit users' posts...

Edit: just a handful of armed boogaloo today compared to number of press and defense personnel at the capitols.