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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Angular Speed of Sun Slows near the Horizon
« on: November 03, 2018, 08:57:01 PM »
Tom Bishop raised the point in another topic that expresses skepticism about the explanation of atmospheric refraction being responsible for the apparent slowing of the motion of celestrial objects near the horizon. Rather than pursue it there, where it is off topic (and, dare I say, pedantic), perhaps it would be worth our time to discuss it in the Investigations section.  Here's the quote for context:

Astronomers claim that the reason the celestial bodies don't match theory in such examples is because there is a permanent refraction effect which can do many marvelous things such as slow bodies down as they approach the horizon.

"As you can see the stars get significantly closer together as they get closer to the horizon" --Mick West

From the Wikipedia page on Atmospheric Refraction we read:

"Whenever possible, astronomers will schedule their observations around the times of culmination, when celestial objects are highest in the sky."

This should give you an idea of the magnitude of refraction they are claiming. Any theoretical prediction based on uniform movement will likely not manifest in reality, considering all of this "refraction" necessary to salvage the Round Earth Theory.

I don't know really what the crux of the issue is for Tom. Does he dispute that the apparent angular motion of celestrial objects slows closer to the horizon? Do we need to do a zetetic observation to see if that's true?

Or is the issue that it's true but it's not refraction that is responsible for the phenomenon? If that's the case, I could compose an explanation for how an atmosphere on a globe must produce such an effect and challenge flat earth theory to construct its own explanation given a non-convex atmolayer.

If it's the former, I'd like to perform a demonstration showing the passage of the sun and it's angular speed at various times throughout the day compared to it's movement within a few degrees of sunset. If that's not a bone of contention, let me know so I don't waste my time showing something that isn't disputed and we can move on to the latter issue.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Speed of Sun Slows near the Horizon
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2018, 09:47:33 PM »
I don't dispute that the stars slow down and change configuration as they approach the horizon.

My point is that the Round Earth Theory appears to operate entirely on the basis of special pleading. There are many excuses for why prediction is not possible, and why this or that does not reflect a Round Earth, while simultaneously claiming that the evidence behind it is certain and mountainous.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Angular Speed of Sun Slows near the Horizon
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2018, 10:07:29 PM »
Do you  understand why atmospheric refraction on a globe when viewing at lower angles incurs an additional impact on distance observations that wouldn't be a factor on a flat earth?

Even if you don't believe it, you should comprehend it. I'm up for discussing it.

Just as we globe earthers need to understand how certain flat earth mechanisms are explained so as not to refute strawmen, so, too, should you understand how a globe's atmosphere refracts light differently from an atmoplane, and what effect that would have on observations.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 12:08:38 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline stack

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Re: Angular Speed of Sun Slows near the Horizon
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2018, 07:30:11 AM »
This where I'm confused. Perhaps a really basic question and I'm just not getting it: In FET, does refraction work differently than in RET?

Re: Angular Speed of Sun Slows near the Horizon
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2018, 01:41:49 PM »
I don't dispute that the stars slow down and change configuration as they approach the horizon.

My point is that the Round Earth Theory appears to operate entirely on the basis of special pleading. There are many excuses for why prediction is not possible, and why this or that does not reflect a Round Earth, while simultaneously claiming that the evidence behind it is certain and mountainous.

There's no special pleading because there's no contradiction. Atmospheric refraction proves Round Earth. Let's separate the issue in two statements:

1) The Earth's rotation makes the sky rotate with a rate of 15° per hour.

2) Close to the horizon, light rays are refracted further away because they are tangent to the Earth's curvature.

Statements 1 and 2 aren't contradictory. If you think they are, you need to explain why.

The predictions resulting from 1) are verified every day.

Every time a star dips below the horizon and, according to 2), is temporarily refracted, it always reappears above the horizon after following the same rate of 15° per hour predicted by 1).

There's no need for excuses because predictions don't fail. If you have observational data failing 1), could you present it?
Where does Earth Not a Globe say that all beliefs contrary to the Scriptures are necessarily wrong?  ???

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Offline AATW

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Re: Angular Speed of Sun Slows near the Horizon
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 05:35:56 PM »
My point is that the Round Earth Theory appears to operate entirely on the basis of special pleading. There are many excuses for why prediction is not possible, and why this or that does not reflect a Round Earth, while simultaneously claiming that the evidence behind it is certain and mountainous.
I would counter that by saying that FE appears to operate entirely on the basis of ignorance and straw man argument.
That's why I started the common straw men threads, there's a lot of "If the earth were a globe then 'x', we do not observe 'x' ergo the earth cannot be a globe". That logic is only a sound if 'x' is true and it just isn't. A recent example was your thread about how we'd notice the sideways acceleration of the earth's rotation, not understanding that the force acts towards the centre of rotation.

The evidence is mountainous, people not understanding that evidence or deliberately disregarding it doesn't change that.
As for "certain", if you're going to operate in the sceptical context where nothing is certain then I guess not, but I note that you do that very selectively, not casting doubt on any of the so-called evidence for a flat earth.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline JCM

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Re: Angular Speed of Sun Slows near the Horizon
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 01:32:41 PM »
The stars may appear to slow down due to refraction does not magically make the world flat, or make the globe Earth not work.   Those stars never stop moving at 15 degrees per refraction is easy to test.   While the stars you are watching are nearing  the horizon, a friend on the west coast same latitude 2000 miles away sees those same stars higher up still moving at 15 degrees per hour approximately before they dip under the horizon.  12 timezones away 12 hours later same latitude another person sees the same stars above of the horizon make the trip again.  The entire time, the stars kept moving, 12 hours the stars stayed under the horizon then continued their 15 degrees per hour journey.

Tom Bishops straw man argument is just a distraction.  The spinning globular Earth is getting in the way of those stars.  Flat Earth proponents want us to believe the stars are just fading away due to refraction as a way of explaining how Polaris disappears as you travel south.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Angular Speed of Sun Slows near the Horizon
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2018, 01:57:18 PM »
This where I'm confused. Perhaps a really basic question and I'm just not getting it: In FET, does refraction work differently than in RET?
Both an atmolayer and an atmosphere will manifest refractive phenomena like mirage or looming or other distortions due to horizontal changes in the air mass caused by differences in humidity and temperature across the expanse of a view shed.

What's difference though is that in a stable air mass without changes, an atmosphere will still cause light that at a high angle of incidence (shallow angle relatie to the earth) to refract as the atmosphere's density curves away whereas that won't happen in an atmolayer because there is no curving of a standard atmolayer over a flat earth.