Offline jimster

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Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« on: August 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM »
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/OrbitsHistory/page2.php

If the earth is flat, and observations match RE/Newton/Kepler, and the calculations are consistent with each other, is this just a coincidence? Does any FE find it amazing that there is a whole coherent system of observations and calculations that matches RE when the earth is actually flat and covered by a dome with planetary motion unexplained by FE calculations and theory? If I believed FE, that would be amazing to me.

Does FE have a similar explanation that provides accurate answers to the future position of planets?

There are computerized telescopes that you can tell to point at Mars, Saturn, etc now or any point in the future. How does this work if FE is true? Do the people who wrote the programs that do this know the true shape of the earth? How, if not Newton/Kepler/RE do they do it?
I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2023, 06:09:33 AM »
There is no such thing as Kepler's laws: Kepler had faked each and every entry, each calculation in Nova Astronomia:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10175.msg160200#msg160200

The 3D galactic orbit of the solar system looks like this:



https://i.postimg.cc/nL6hx23b/safari.jpg

What you'd need is a three dimensional Kepler law, something no one has ever derived or even thought of.

The 3D helical orbits of the planets cannot be justified, since one would need a lateral kind of gravitation which would pull the celestial bodies in such a manner.

Offline jimster

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2023, 07:13:40 PM »
There have been thousands of astronomers since Kepler, students doing calculations as learning, scientists looking to perfect or even falsify previous data. Any number of astronomers will confirm that the entire system is consistent with calculations and observations.

My friend has a computerized telescope which he commanded to point at Saturn. I looked through the eyepiece, and there it was, rings and all. Somebody knows how to calculate where it is.

There are open source programs to point telescope. You can examine the source code and see how it figures it out, and then install in a telescope to confirm it can find planets. If the program does not work according to RE/Newton/Kepler, you can expose that fact. If it does not actually work, you can expose that fact. Hint: it works, and just the way RE and astronomers know it to work.

So words, words, words here on TFES, or become world famous, probably make $$$$, establish the truth of FE. Show us that the software doesn't work by RE/Newton/Kepler, or doesn't work at all. Other wise, just bla-bla-bla.
I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2023, 07:29:56 PM »
I know RET better than you.

Please explain the faint young sun paradox. If you cannot, you are out of luck, your software simply uses the conventional RE diameters/distances for the planets in a PLANAR context. The orbits of the planets are not planar, they are helices on a cylinder.

Here is the faint young sun paradox:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1707290#msg1707290

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2023, 07:46:17 PM »
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/OrbitsHistory/page2.php

If the earth is flat, and observations match RE/Newton/Kepler, and the calculations are consistent with each other, is this just a coincidence? Does any FE find it amazing that there is a whole coherent system of observations and calculations that matches RE when the earth is actually flat and covered by a dome with planetary motion unexplained by FE calculations and theory? If I believed FE, that would be amazing to me.

Does FE have a similar explanation that provides accurate answers to the future position of planets?

There are computerized telescopes that you can tell to point at Mars, Saturn, etc now or any point in the future. How does this work if FE is true? Do the people who wrote the programs that do this know the true shape of the earth? How, if not Newton/Kepler/RE do they do it?

The models use epicycles - https://wiki.tfes.org/Astronomical_Prediction_Based_on_Patterns

Offline jimster

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2023, 11:36:51 PM »
Before Brahe/Kepler, astronomers spent lifetimes computing epicycles, and mathematically, you can produce an equation to describe the path of planets. As the equation becomes more complicated, the approximation becomes better, like limits in calculus. So yes, you can come up with an equation to describe the path. Two issues.

1. After Newton/Kepler, the new "model" (RE astronomy, sun center of solar system, etc) replaced computing epicycles, shortly thereafter no astronomer was doing epicycles, they were all extending the Newton/Kepler sun centric solar system model. I googled "do astronomers still use epicycles?" and this came up at the top:

However, once the sun was in the center of the system and orbits were envisioned as being elliptical, as in modern astronomy, epicycles were no longer necessary.

In fact, the expression "adding epicycles" is now used by scientists to describe adding fudge factors to make your equations work. I suppose it is possible that astronomers were on the right track pre-1700, they all went wrong, and nowyou will set them straight, but it seems unlikely.

2. Computing epicycles is like what is called curve fitting in math. You come up with an equation to match the data. The equation is not derived from nor does it tell you anything about the physical processes behind the process that produced the data. Newton's laws and the idea of syn centric solar system take phenomena that can be demonstrated in experiments (I did them in college physics) and derive equations that predict planetary motion to confirm the theory. And indeed it does, or astronomers are stupid or conspirators in a 300 year conspiracy with no one (except possibly a few FE'ers) seeing the lie. In other words, having the equation tells you nothing about the physics, whereas sun centric solar system and Newton's laws produce equations that predicts future planetary positions. The equations exist (and experimentally verified) independet of and before being applied to prediction of planetary motion. This, to me, is profoundly significant aand incredible that the equations work if the underlying theory is not true. Epicycles are just coming up with an equation to describe the data.

My original point was that RE has equations that accurately predict along with an explanation of how it works. Epicycles may accurately predict positions, but what is the underlying mechanism that produces those equations? Can FE postulate a mechanism, derive equations, experimentally verify, and apply them to planetary motion to make accurate predictions? What are those mechanisms? Or find the flaw in RE physics and its application to astronomy?

Near as I can tell, in FE, planets just move around the dome making little loops and sometimes going backwards and no one knows why. What causes epicycles? No one knew then, and no one knows now. Or you could enlighten me.
I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

Offline jimster

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2023, 12:09:10 AM »
The "faint young sun paradox" does not seem to have anything to do with whether Kepler's laws, RE, and sun centric solar system are true. It is a problem of trying to figure out the chemistry and physics of long long ago. This is hard, as it can not be visited or observed. But whatever about the sun's output not matching effects on earth, it tells you nothing about the orbits of planets around the sun and RE. The sun could have been faint on RE or FE, and ideas about conditions at that time are deduced, speculative, and are not confirmable without time travel.

Be careful, though. Some people here believe FE is true because of the Bible. They think earth was created less than 10,000 years ago in more or less its present form. Never heard of a "young earth" believer accepting science involving millions of years ago.

The reason you know RE better than I do is that you are searching it for errors or misrepresentation opportunities. In your search, you descend into the details. I find the basic ideas convincing and the basic ideas of FE so flawed that I see no reason to spend the time. For example, at the same time that someone in north America sees the dome covered with stars, someone in south America sees the same dome covered with completely different stars, while someone in the middle east sees the sun and light blue sky. RE explains this quite reasonably, while FE has no plausible explanation. Astronomers and science classes explain, and navigators confirm. GPS works with satellites, FE can't explain how a satellite works, or denies their existence. It makes sense as a system, FE has "models" without experimental proof or equations, and it has problems explaining people seeing different things on the same dome at the same time.

Psychologists call what you are doing "motivated reasoning", you are motivated to prove FE is true. I intend to be motivated to find the truth, and in 10 years of hearing FE explanations, RE wins easily. Explain why at sunset in Denver, someone in St Louis looks at the dome directly over Denver and sees dark sky with stars, while someone in Salt Lake City looks at the dome directly over Denver and sees light blue sky with no stars, and experiments to prove your mechanism rather than saying "it might be ...". That would be something.
I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

Offline Action80

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2023, 10:59:33 AM »
Before Brahe/Kepler, astronomers spent lifetimes computing epicycles, and mathematically, you can produce an equation to describe the path of planets.
^If this was really true, there would be an accurate CGI motion picture rendering of the solar system hurtling through space, based on those equations.

But, there isn't.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 07:13:33 PM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2023, 05:37:23 PM »
Quote from: jimster
However, once the sun was in the center of the system and orbits were envisioned as being elliptical, as in modern astronomy, epicycles were no longer necessary.

In fact, the expression "adding epicycles" is now used by scientists to describe adding fudge factors to make your equations work. I suppose it is possible that astronomers were on the right track pre-1700, they all went wrong, and nowyou will set them straight, but it seems unlikely.

I think you should read the entirety of the page I linked and the referenced sources. It talks about how modern planetary models use epicycles - https://wiki.tfes.org/Astronomical_Prediction_Based_on_Patterns





At this point I feel that one of the forum rules should be that the FES only wants to talk about rebuttals to the references in the Wiki and that you should read it and come up with a rebuttal which will either cause the reader to concede the issue or make the Wiki better with the ensuing discussion and presentation of counter-evidence.

It seems that no one bothers with it and I need to discuss it from scratch all the time. I mean, the rest of this conversation will just be me copy and pasting the 10 other references and quotes from the wiki when you say "nuh-uh" without presenting anything of your own. On rare occasion you will get me to exhaust those references and give me some motivation to go search for another few to add.

To hurry up this conversation so it gets to that point I've posted the three quotes above. When you post again with denial I'll post three more.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 05:53:04 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2023, 09:01:31 PM »
Before Brahe/Kepler, astronomers spent lifetimes computing epicycles, and mathematically, you can produce an equation to describe the path of planets.
^If this was really true, there would be an accurate CGI motion picture rendering of the solar system hurtling through space, based on those equations.

But, there isn't.
Why would there be?  Keppler's laws do not describe the solar system hurtling through space.  They describe how the planets orbit around the sun.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Offline jimster

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2023, 10:08:18 PM »
I do not quarrel with your assertion that it is possible to derive equations that describe planetary motion, and apparently we agreed that these equations approach accuracy as the number of terms approach infinity. I said that in sloppier language, or meant to. It also appears that modern astrodynamics may use epicycles, to my surprise. I found a research paper:

https://authors.library.caltech.edu/24754/

"This paper presents a modern treatment of epicycle theory, which is an exact series representation of Keplerian motion, and uses that theory to develop the first analytic method for analyzing the higher order dynamics of the LISA orbits. LISA, the Laser Interferometer Space Antenna mission, uses a constellation of three spacecraft in heliocentric space and takes advantage of particular solutions of the Clohessy-Wiltshire equations."

So I was wrong, epicycles are used by modern astronomers, but I don't think much. Note that the author is confirming the equivalence to Kepler.

From the wiki page on deferent and epicycle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle

"Epicycles worked very well and were highly accurate, because, as Fourier analysis later showed, any smooth curve can be approximated to arbitrary accuracy with a sufficient number of epicycles. However, they fell out of favor with the discovery that planetary motions were largely elliptical from a heliocentric frame of reference, which led to the discovery that gravity obeying a simple inverse square law could better explain all planetary motions."

This is the overall approximate truth I was under the impression of, and I think it is true that most astronomers today do not use epicycles. In math, there are often different approaches that yield the same results, and apparently, epicycles helped at least one modern astronomer, who, as I mentioned, said it was equivalent.

And it remains true that epicycle equations are produced by taking data and analyzing it without relation to underlying physical theory. It is a case of, here is an equation that produces the curve described by the data, while Newton/Kepler says here is mass and position and velocity and equations describing experimentally confirmed forces, and those equations accurately predict observed apparent planetary motions produced by heliocentric RE astronomy.

Case in point, astronomers observed slight variations in the predicted orbits of known planets, and used the Newtonian equations within RE heliocentric solar system to predict the existence of Neptune. They looked where they calculated it should be, and there it was. Epicycles could not do that.

But ... that was not the question of the original post. The original question is whether Newton/Kepler equations "worked", are they consistent and predictive. Per the above articles and general knowledge, yes they are. My point is that the motion of planets on FE dome may be described and even predicted by epicycles, but they don't explain why planets appear to make little loops, slow down, go backwards (planets to ancient Greeks: wandering stars). Kepler/Newton/RE are also consistent and predictive, as well as explanatory. If FE is true and planets are moving around on the dome, it is amazing to me that there is a 3d explanation that matches with known laws of physics. What a coincidence! Heliocentric Kepler/Newton RE solar system has the same appearance as the FE dome.

If you take FE as true, you don't know the how or why of the appearance of planets and other heavenly bodies, nor day and night, different stars in the southern and northern hemispheres, etc. You don't know why when it is sunset in Denver, people looking at the dome directly over Denver from St Louis see dark sky with stars, while at the same time people in Salt Lake City look at the same spot on the dome and see light blue with no stars. RE explains this consistent with known physical laws. FE requires some complex, speculative, unproven explanations, or has no explanation at all. "Some people have proposed a model ..." is not proof, not complete, not consistent.

Please point me at the place in the wiki that explains how people can see such different things when looking at the same spot on the same dome, and I will rebut it. I have looked (and asked), and I haven't found it.

I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

SteelyBob

Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2023, 10:11:19 PM »
Quote from: jimster
However, once the sun was in the center of the system and orbits were envisioned as being elliptical, as in modern astronomy, epicycles were no longer necessary.

In fact, the expression "adding epicycles" is now used by scientists to describe adding fudge factors to make your equations work. I suppose it is possible that astronomers were on the right track pre-1700, they all went wrong, and nowyou will set them straight, but it seems unlikely.

I think you should read the entirety of the page I linked and the referenced sources. It talks about how modern planetary models use epicycles - https://wiki.tfes.org/Astronomical_Prediction_Based_on_Patterns





At this point I feel that one of the forum rules should be that the FES only wants to talk about rebuttals to the references in the Wiki and that you should read it and come up with a rebuttal which will either cause the reader to concede the issue or make the Wiki better with the ensuing discussion and presentation of counter-evidence.

It seems that no one bothers with it and I need to discuss it from scratch all the time. I mean, the rest of this conversation will just be me copy and pasting the 10 other references and quotes from the wiki when you say "nuh-uh" without presenting anything of your own. On rare occasion you will get me to exhaust those references and give me some motivation to go search for another few to add.

To hurry up this conversation so it gets to that point I've posted the three quotes above. When you post again with denial I'll post three more.

Fourier series are a useful tool for mathematicians and scientists. The fundamental point that you are either wilfully ignoring / misrepresenting or just not understanding is that the modern day ephemerides are not simply Fourier series, or indeed any other model based on observation alone. They are, in fact, based on the equations of motion of the numerous orbiting masses. You seem to obsess over the fact that numerical integration is used. That this is the case proves nothing - it is an entirely valid method for solving challenging PDEs and its  use is widespread.

Offline Action80

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2023, 10:16:13 PM »
Before Brahe/Kepler, astronomers spent lifetimes computing epicycles, and mathematically, you can produce an equation to describe the path of planets.
^If this was really true, there would be an accurate CGI motion picture rendering of the solar system hurtling through space, based on those equations.

But, there isn't.
Why would there be?  Keppler's laws do not describe the solar system hurtling through space.  They describe how the planets orbit around the sun.
Oh, and the solar system is, of course, motionless while this is happening...must be some of that "simple physics," you seem to be so fond of.

Never mind in your world, Kepler's laws are also "simple approximations." COMEDY GOLD!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 10:18:49 PM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2023, 12:38:23 AM »
Oh, and the solar system is, of course, motionless while this is happening...must be some of that "simple physics," you seem to be so fond of.
As far as Kepler knew at the time, yes.  Perhaps you should brush up on the concept of frames of reference as they apply to heliocentrism.

Never mind in your world, Kepler's laws are also "simple approximations." COMEDY GOLD!
What's wrong with approximations?  It's not as if Kepler is the final authority on the motions of the planets within the solar system.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Dual1ty

Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2023, 09:03:54 AM »
My point is that the motion of planets on FE dome may be described and even predicted by epicycles, but they don't explain why planets appear to make little loops, slow down, go backwards (planets to ancient Greeks: wandering stars). Kepler/Newton/RE are also consistent and predictive, as well as explanatory. If FE is true and planets are moving around on the dome, it is amazing to me that there is a 3d explanation that matches with known laws of physics. What a coincidence! Heliocentric Kepler/Newton RE solar system has the same appearance as the FE dome.

If you take FE as true, you don't know the how or why of the appearance of planets and other heavenly bodies, nor day and night, different stars in the southern and northern hemispheres, etc. You don't know why when it is sunset in Denver, people looking at the dome directly over Denver from St Louis see dark sky with stars, while at the same time people in Salt Lake City look at the same spot on the dome and see light blue with no stars. RE explains this consistent with known physical laws. FE requires some complex, speculative, unproven explanations, or has no explanation at all. "Some people have proposed a model ..." is not proof, not complete, not consistent.

Please point me at the place in the wiki that explains how people can see such different things when looking at the same spot on the same dome, and I will rebut it. I have looked (and asked), and I haven't found it.

You talk a lot about this so-called "FE dome". What is this "dome" to you exactly - can you explain your strawman, please?

Offline jimster

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2023, 07:52:33 PM »
Re the FE dome, this is a common, perhaps majority idea of FE. It is of course difficult to discuss FE theories, since the only thing I have found that all FEs agree on is that the earth is not round. Most of the wiki is full of statements like "some models" or "there is a theory". Unlike RE, there is no system of facts that all FEs agree on.

But ...

The question was, is the Newton/Kepler/astronomy as taught at my high school and college consistent with observations and calculations? If you calculate the mass, velocity, gravity etc per Newton, astronomer observations, all of RE science, are there inconsistencies?

I am hoping for a yes or no answer, not a discussion of whether epicycles work, or even whether FE is true. Just the answer of whether RE science is consistent with itself and observations.

My ultimate point is that until FE shows inconsistency in calculations and observations, I would find it astounding if the FE solar system is not Kepler/Newton and yet the entire system of calculations and observations is consistent and predictive.

Will any FE admit that Newton/Kepler is consistent and predictive? Will any FE admit that it is an astounding coincidence that if you don't account for the bending light (per EA wiki page), that assuming light travels straight through a vacuum, RE solar system, Newton's laws, RE science in general, then RE science is consistent with calculations and observations.

Please, yes or no. If the answer is no, you can be a famous scientist like Kepler, Galileo, etc. If the answer is yes, RE is the most amazing coincidence in science. I have beaten this to death in hopes of getting my answer because the answers either pick apart my question (am I able to communicate a question? Will repetition help?) or answer a different question (Do epicycles work?). Yes or no?

Is RE/Newton/Kepler consistent with itself and observations? Yes or no?
I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

Dual1ty

Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2023, 08:03:37 PM »
I asked you to explain exactly what this "FE dome" is that you constantly use a strawman (including in your signature).

You don't get to answer "the FE dome, this is a common, perhaps majority idea of FE." and move on.

Well, you can, but I will simply ignore you if that is the case. Explain what you mean by your "FE dome" in detail, please.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2023, 12:42:53 AM »
Explain what you mean by your "FE dome" in detail, please.
Perhaps you should read the wiki.
https://wiki.tfes.org/Celestial_Sphere
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Dual1ty

Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2023, 09:24:59 AM »
Explain what you mean by your "FE dome" in detail, please.
Perhaps you should read the wiki.
https://wiki.tfes.org/Celestial_Sphere

Too bad that's not what he means by it. Celestial sphere is not physical and is always centered around the observer, and I'm pretty sure his pathetic concept of "FE dome" is physical and does not center around the observer.

But, I'm sure he can clarify his strawman himself without you butting in.

Offline jimster

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Re: Does observation of planets match Newton's and Kepler's laws?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2023, 05:31:15 PM »
In my nearly 10 years trying to understand and verify the truth of FE, I have heard many FEs describe our world as a terrarium, flat land under a dome. It is always difficult to determine what exactly FE means, as FEs do not agree and often their ideas are presented as models, as possibilities, often multiple possibilities. So some say dome, some don't, whatever.

Forget the dome, sorry I mentioned it.

My question is whether the RE model of the solar system is consistent with observations and calculations per Newtonian physics. If RE astronomy was true, would it account for planetary motion as observed from the surface of the earth? Are Newton's equations consistent with orbital paths and are those paths what we would see in RE solar system?

The possible answers from FE believer are:

1. Yes, the RE explanation is consistent with calculations and observations, but that is just an amazing coincidence. The light bends to make the appearance of RE actually be FE, although FE can't explain the forces and equations involved.

2. No, here are calculations that show that Newton was wrong, or observations that show that Kepler was wrong.

All other answers, including the FE posts in this thread, do not answer my question. Dome or no dome, epicycles, fourier, etc. The question remains, is Kepler/Newton consistent with observations and calculations? If the solar system is what RE says it is, does that account for its appearance? Is RE consistent with Newtonian equations of mass and motion?

That is the only question of this thread.
I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.