Constellations
« on: October 08, 2017, 11:31:51 AM »
If the earth is flat, then why don't we all see the same constellations?  Why can't northern hemisphere people see the southern cross or southern people see the southern cross or the north star?

Re: Constellations
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 12:26:06 AM »
I just made an account so I can ask this question, but found you'd already asked. On the flat earth model, what is the explanation for this? I've seen flat earth proponents saying that light doesn't work how globe earth proponents say it does, is that part of the flat earth explanation?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Constellations
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2017, 12:27:56 AM »
For the same reason that you cannot see a plane that is flying over China.

Rama Set

Re: Constellations
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 12:50:26 AM »
For the same reason that you cannot see a plane that is flying over China.

Because it is on the other side of the globe, silly.

Re: Constellations
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2017, 12:51:44 AM »
But on the flat earth model, a person standing in Australia can see the southern constellations, and a person standing in South America can see the southern constellations. Shouldn't someone standing directly between them also be able to see everything that the first two people can both see? If i were standing between two people, who could both see an airplane, I would expect to be able to see that airplane.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Constellations
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 02:07:10 AM »
But on the flat earth model, a person standing in Australia can see the southern constellations, and a person standing in South America can see the southern constellations. Shouldn't someone standing directly between them also be able to see everything that the first two people can both see? If i were standing between two people, who could both see an airplane, I would expect to be able to see that airplane.

You are using the pre-1911 Flat Earth model with one pole. When the South Pole was discovered in the early 1900's we admitted in our literature that the monopole model was a mistake and that there are actually two poles, one of which the Southern continents are situated around. Over each pole exists a celestial star system.

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Constellations
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 02:12:46 AM »
But on the flat earth model, a person standing in Australia can see the southern constellations, and a person standing in South America can see the southern constellations. Shouldn't someone standing directly between them also be able to see everything that the first two people can both see? If i were standing between two people, who could both see an airplane, I would expect to be able to see that airplane.

You are using the pre-1911 Flat Earth model with one pole. When the South Pole was discovered in the early 1900's we admitted in our literature that the monopole model was a mistake and that there are actually two poles, one of which the Southern continents are situated around. Over each pole exists a celestial star system.

Two poles with different star systems. Almost sounds like...a globe. Tom, by what distance are these star systems separated? I'm sure you guys Zeteticed the heck out of this and eliminated all other possibilities, like, you know, the Earth is a globe.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Offline xenotolerance

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Re: Constellations
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 02:12:55 AM »
Tom's bipolar model fails to predict star motions as well. If the stars were rotating around a point above a flat Earth, then viewed from anywhere but the poles they would appear to rotate in a highly skewed ellipse pattern. Look at 1:00 in this video:

It is showing a unipolar system, but in the bipolar model, you would just have this problem twice. From the equator, you would see all the stars rotating around two different points at once, all at the same time.

the Earth is not flat.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Constellations
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 02:18:06 AM »
For the same reason that you cannot see a plane that is flying over China.

A plane would be so tiny if it was it's 8,000 miles or more away and 5 or 6 miles up - it also would be hidden by even the smallest intervening mountains...but the Sun is claimed to be over 30 miles across and 3,000 miles up - it would be WAY up in the sky - and about half the apparent size that it actually is.

(At this point, Tom usually handwaves some poorly described explanation about magic perspective and yet seems oddly unable to tell us clearly and simply - what the path the photons take as they travel from the sun to your eye at sunset.)
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Constellations
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 02:20:44 AM »
Tom, can you provide a map of what the dual pole flat earth model looks like? I tried to post one here for you to approve or correct, but the forum hasn't been displaying images I provide.

Re: Constellations
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2017, 02:43:06 PM »
I hope this question is relevant to this thread. Why is it that I can only see the constellation Orion in the winter.  I live in the northern hemisphere, east coast USA.  I step outside at night during the winter, look southward and I see Orion...in the winter only. 

Why is Orion only visible in the winter from the NH, and in the summer months in the SH?

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Constellations
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2017, 08:00:28 PM »
I hope this question is relevant to this thread. Why is it that I can only see the constellation Orion in the winter.  I live in the northern hemisphere, east coast USA.  I step outside at night during the winter, look southward and I see Orion...in the winter only. 

Why is Orion only visible in the winter from the NH, and in the summer months in the SH?
In round earth terms, it's easy - Orion lies close to the plane of the ecliptic - and the Earth has a tilt of 23 degrees - so anything within 23 degrees of the ecliptic comes and goes through the year - depending on your latitude.

In flat earth terms, it depends on the map of the world.   Since FE'ers either seem to use the pre-1911 "unipolar" map or the more recent "bipolar" map - you'd think the motions of the stars could be exactly mapped over the course of a year.  However, the claims from other people here are "We have no idea what the Flat Earth Map is like."...which allows them to conveniently duck the question with a hand-wavey "the stars swirl around because of the Celestial currents"...which adds a name to the effect but precisely zero new information.

I suspect that if you plotted out the known motions of the stars, planets, moon and sun in both hemispheres - then very, very weird things would happen at the equator - and possibly other places too.

Certainly some things that are observed in the real world produce VERY weird predictions in FE maps.  One that I've been concerned about is with the Bipolar map.   If you stand on the South Pole in December then we know that there is 24 hours of continuous sunlight.  And that the sun makes a circle around the horizon - just skimming the equator the whole way around.

In the bipolar map - there is ocean "below" the South pole on the map.  (I want to say "South of the South pole" - but that's silly)...and when the sun is visible at some parts of their 24 hours of sunlight - the Sun *MUST* be hovering overhead in that place.

Looking at the other places in the bipolar map - the sun would appear to be setting in the very south of their skies!

So where exactly does the sun set in the south?   I've lived in quite a lot of places - and I've never seen the sun set other than in the west...give or take bit.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Constellations
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2017, 05:07:57 AM »
"...anything within 23 degrees of the ecliptic comes and goes through the year - depending on your latitude."

Not just depending on your latitude. Stars along the ecliptic come and go because the sun also moves along the ecliptic. When the sun is near Orion, you can't see it because the sun is so bright you can't see stars.

Except.... if there's a total solar eclipse. Then you can see the brighter stars.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Constellations
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2017, 02:40:29 AM »
"...anything within 23 degrees of the ecliptic comes and goes through the year - depending on your latitude."

Not just depending on your latitude. Stars along the ecliptic come and go because the sun also moves along the ecliptic. When the sun is near Orion, you can't see it because the sun is so bright you can't see stars.

Except.... if there's a total solar eclipse. Then you can see the brighter stars.

Yep - obviously.

I'm told that if you stand at the bottom of one of the vertical shafts of a deep coal mine, you can see the stars in broad daylight.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Constellations
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2017, 04:20:10 PM »
I've never been in a coal mine, but I have a friend who is an amateur astronomer, and he's shown me stars in his telescope during the day. The brighter stars are visible but only if you know exactly where to look. Fortunately modern telescopes have computers that can point at any object you want to see, so if you dial up a bright star in the daytime you can see it.