2261
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2262
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Forum rules: Draft 1
« on: December 18, 2013, 07:48:15 PM »
I have posted a set of rules in Announcements: http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=977.0
These are enforceable as of now, and I'll be updating the "Don't be a dick" registration agreement to refer to these rules instead. Ideally, I would have posted a revised draft for comment first, but we keep running into problems that require rules to resolve fairly, so I decided the sooner we have a set of rules the better.
These are enforceable as of now, and I'll be updating the "Don't be a dick" registration agreement to refer to these rules instead. Ideally, I would have posted a revised draft for comment first, but we keep running into problems that require rules to resolve fairly, so I decided the sooner we have a set of rules the better.
2263
Announcements / Forum rules
« on: December 18, 2013, 07:46:35 PM »
Unless otherwise specified, the below rules apply to all fora except Complete Nonsense and Angry Ranting. They will be enforced to a more relaxed degree in The Lounge, but are still enforceable as necessary.
Where an associated penalty for a rule specifies that it applies after a certain number of warnings, that means you will have that many warnings without that penalty. For instance, if a rule says you will receive a ban after two warnings, then you get a second warning without a ban, and on the third offence you will be banned.
1. No personal attacks
Keep your posts civil and to the point, and don't insult others. If you have run out of valid contributions, simply do not post. The exception to this rule is in Complete Nonsense and Angry Ranting, where personal attacks are par for the course. If you do not like this, then don't post in those fora.
Anyone seen personally attacking another member will be immediately warned. After two warnings, a ban with length determined by moderator discretion will be issued.
2. No harassment of other members (applies in all fora)
If another member makes it clear to you that your behaviour toward them is making them uncomfortable, take that as a signal to back off. If you continue to harass that member after being made aware of this fact, you may be officially warned by forum staff. After two warnings for this offence, you will receive a week-long ban, with increasing ban duration for repeated offences upon your return.
3. Stay on topic
If what you're discussing isn't related to the thread's opening topic or a natural progression thereof, it's off topic. Minor derailments will be handled by splitting the off-topic posts into another thread (possibly in another forum); repeat offenders will receive a warning. Depending on the frequency and severity of derailments, a short ban or restriction from specific subfora may be imposed after at least three warnings.
4. Do not disclose personal information (applies in all fora)
Do not post any personal information relating another member without their express consent. Any post containing such information will be deleted immediately and a warning issued. A second offence will result in a ban, the length of which is up to moderator discretion.
5. Post in the appropriate forum
Read each forum's description and ask yourself if your thread fits. Are you here to investigate and question mainstream authoritative claims? Post in Flat Earth Investigations. Are you looking to critique the Flat Earth Theory? Flat Earth Theory is the board for you! Want to talk about Breaking Bad? That goes in Arts & Entertainment. Have casual discussion in The Lounge and rant about how your day went in Angry Ranting. If you have a suggestion or a concern to do with the forum, such as possible improvements or bugs, post it in Suggestions & Concerns—we'd appreciate it! See? That wasn't so hard.
Many boards come with a stickied "read before posting" thread to help clarify their intended use. If you have any doubts, just ask!
For the purpose of handling offenders, this rule will be treated as a special case of the "stay on topic" rule.
6. Avoid including material which does not contribute to the point you are making
This is a fairly vague rule, and as such, it will not be strictly enforced on a per-post basis. Rather, members who repeatedly make posts with a large amount of extraneous material will be asked to stop, and if they fail to do so, given a warning. After no less than three warnings for this offence, members may be restricted from posting in certain fora in order to prevent their verbosity from cluttering up debate threads.
7. Do not post NSFW material (applies in all fora)
Do not post material which is overly pornographic, shocking or otherwise inappropriate for being viewed without warning in a public or work place. As much as we would like for you to be able to post freely, we also want to keep this website a safe places for people of all professions and ages to use.
Material of this nature will be removed on sight, and the offending poster warned. On your second offence, you will receive a month-long ban, with increasing ban duration for repeated offences upon your return.
8. Keep alternate accounts within reason
We will be taking a very relaxed policy towards alternate accounts ("alts"), provided that people do not force us to take a stricter stance by abusing this policy. Alts are allowed, and will be permitted free reign across all fora, provided that they follow the rules for the forum they are posting in. FES has a history of alts that contribute to discussions in addition to the usual complement of spamming and trolling alts, and it would be a shame to try to restrict this.
There are two exceptions to this policy: one, an alt that is used for the purpose of furthering a main or another alt's argument without itself contributing a unique point of view on the situation ("sockpuppetting") will be immediately banned; two, an alt that is intended to impersonate a member either here or on the old FES will be immediately banned, and deleted if it is occupying the username of an old FES member, as otherwise it would bar them from registering here.
An alt breaking any rule that would ordinarily result in a warning can (at moderator discretion) be handled by immediately banning the alt account, and instead warning the main account of the person controlling it.
9. Use appropriate channels for seeking help
If you have concerns about a member, a thread or specific posts, you have a few options. You can use the report post feature to alert the moderation staff to your issue; you can PM a moderator directly if you'd rather have a discussion with someone about the problem; or you can create a thread in Suggestions & Concerns if you'd rather open the situation to public discussion.
Posting complaints directly into the thread in question is only going to escalate the situation, and this will be treated as off-topic posting.
Where an associated penalty for a rule specifies that it applies after a certain number of warnings, that means you will have that many warnings without that penalty. For instance, if a rule says you will receive a ban after two warnings, then you get a second warning without a ban, and on the third offence you will be banned.
1. No personal attacks
Keep your posts civil and to the point, and don't insult others. If you have run out of valid contributions, simply do not post. The exception to this rule is in Complete Nonsense and Angry Ranting, where personal attacks are par for the course. If you do not like this, then don't post in those fora.
Anyone seen personally attacking another member will be immediately warned. After two warnings, a ban with length determined by moderator discretion will be issued.
2. No harassment of other members (applies in all fora)
If another member makes it clear to you that your behaviour toward them is making them uncomfortable, take that as a signal to back off. If you continue to harass that member after being made aware of this fact, you may be officially warned by forum staff. After two warnings for this offence, you will receive a week-long ban, with increasing ban duration for repeated offences upon your return.
3. Stay on topic
If what you're discussing isn't related to the thread's opening topic or a natural progression thereof, it's off topic. Minor derailments will be handled by splitting the off-topic posts into another thread (possibly in another forum); repeat offenders will receive a warning. Depending on the frequency and severity of derailments, a short ban or restriction from specific subfora may be imposed after at least three warnings.
4. Do not disclose personal information (applies in all fora)
Do not post any personal information relating another member without their express consent. Any post containing such information will be deleted immediately and a warning issued. A second offence will result in a ban, the length of which is up to moderator discretion.
5. Post in the appropriate forum
Read each forum's description and ask yourself if your thread fits. Are you here to investigate and question mainstream authoritative claims? Post in Flat Earth Investigations. Are you looking to critique the Flat Earth Theory? Flat Earth Theory is the board for you! Want to talk about Breaking Bad? That goes in Arts & Entertainment. Have casual discussion in The Lounge and rant about how your day went in Angry Ranting. If you have a suggestion or a concern to do with the forum, such as possible improvements or bugs, post it in Suggestions & Concerns—we'd appreciate it! See? That wasn't so hard.
Many boards come with a stickied "read before posting" thread to help clarify their intended use. If you have any doubts, just ask!
For the purpose of handling offenders, this rule will be treated as a special case of the "stay on topic" rule.
6. Avoid including material which does not contribute to the point you are making
This is a fairly vague rule, and as such, it will not be strictly enforced on a per-post basis. Rather, members who repeatedly make posts with a large amount of extraneous material will be asked to stop, and if they fail to do so, given a warning. After no less than three warnings for this offence, members may be restricted from posting in certain fora in order to prevent their verbosity from cluttering up debate threads.
7. Do not post NSFW material (applies in all fora)
Do not post material which is overly pornographic, shocking or otherwise inappropriate for being viewed without warning in a public or work place. As much as we would like for you to be able to post freely, we also want to keep this website a safe places for people of all professions and ages to use.
Material of this nature will be removed on sight, and the offending poster warned. On your second offence, you will receive a month-long ban, with increasing ban duration for repeated offences upon your return.
8. Keep alternate accounts within reason
We will be taking a very relaxed policy towards alternate accounts ("alts"), provided that people do not force us to take a stricter stance by abusing this policy. Alts are allowed, and will be permitted free reign across all fora, provided that they follow the rules for the forum they are posting in. FES has a history of alts that contribute to discussions in addition to the usual complement of spamming and trolling alts, and it would be a shame to try to restrict this.
There are two exceptions to this policy: one, an alt that is used for the purpose of furthering a main or another alt's argument without itself contributing a unique point of view on the situation ("sockpuppetting") will be immediately banned; two, an alt that is intended to impersonate a member either here or on the old FES will be immediately banned, and deleted if it is occupying the username of an old FES member, as otherwise it would bar them from registering here.
An alt breaking any rule that would ordinarily result in a warning can (at moderator discretion) be handled by immediately banning the alt account, and instead warning the main account of the person controlling it.
9. Use appropriate channels for seeking help
If you have concerns about a member, a thread or specific posts, you have a few options. You can use the report post feature to alert the moderation staff to your issue; you can PM a moderator directly if you'd rather have a discussion with someone about the problem; or you can create a thread in Suggestions & Concerns if you'd rather open the situation to public discussion.
Posting complaints directly into the thread in question is only going to escalate the situation, and this will be treated as off-topic posting.
2264
Technology & Information / Re: My phone has been shipped!
« on: December 18, 2013, 06:49:25 AM »The iPhone's pixel density has nothing on this.
Wow. That's like, literally the same resolution as my Galaxy S4.
2265
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« on: December 17, 2013, 07:23:37 PM »He's had complaint threads before on the other site by newer members who thought that his behavior was not appropriate for a moderator.
I'm not willing to hold misdemeanours on the old forum against anyone here. Their behaviour on this site will speak for itself.
If a moderator is someone that has trouble following the rules, then what is the standard? And how much say does the common forum poster have in this decision? If someone has a few legitimate complaints made by different people then shouldn't their status be reconsidered?
If someone has trouble consistently following the rules, then they should not be a moderator. I would define a "legitimate complaint" to be a complaint either regarding posting that goes against the rules, or moderating that goes against the Manifesto; it is the non-conformance to the rules that is a problem, not the complaints themselves.
Now, what makes things difficult in this particular case is the fact that we don't yet have finalised rules, which makes it hard to point out why someone is in violation of them. I've left the rules draft open for comment for about 24 hours now, so I'll take people's suggestions on board and post some finished rules very soon. In the future, we can then use the established rules as grounds to measure people's behaviour. I'm not going to reconsider jroa or anyone else's status as a moderator before making it clear to them what is expected.
If there are specific behaviours that you object to, please post your comments in the rules draft thread and I will do my best to write the final rules to suit everyone.
2266
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Bug tracker
« on: December 17, 2013, 07:15:44 PM »
I've made some headway towards this, as continuing to track issues in S&C is becoming impossibly confusing, especially intermingled with non-technical threads. (Yes, a subforum would solve the latter issue, but a forum still isn't great for the job.)
I've decided to run with RT for this, as all issue tracking software seems to suck in one way or another, and RT is what I'm most familiar with. I'm still wrangling it to make it work right, but once done I'll put all outstanding technical issues into there so we can stop cluttering up S&C.
I've decided to run with RT for this, as all issue tracking software seems to suck in one way or another, and RT is what I'm most familiar with. I'm still wrangling it to make it work right, but once done I'll put all outstanding technical issues into there so we can stop cluttering up S&C.
2267
Arts & Entertainment / Re: Make music!
« on: December 17, 2013, 04:38:08 PM »
My three semi-worthwhile releases thus far:
Jeepers Creepers Jumbo
Recorded 2007-2009; released 2009
Ogg Vorbis
MP3
Fragments of a Lost Eon
Recorded 2007-2010; released 2012
Ogg Vorbis
MP3
I Wish You Were Mine
Recorded 17th December, 2009; released 2013
Ogg Vorbis
MP3
Jeepers Creepers Jumbo
Recorded 2007-2009; released 2009
Ogg Vorbis
MP3
Fragments of a Lost Eon
Recorded 2007-2010; released 2012
Ogg Vorbis
MP3
I Wish You Were Mine
Recorded 17th December, 2009; released 2013
Ogg Vorbis
MP3
2268
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« on: December 17, 2013, 04:10:39 PM »
I think it is a natural fact that mods are held to a different (not necessarily higher) standard than members. Since not every member would be selected for a moderator position, there is some standard by which they have been distinguished from the general member base.
However, this does not imply that their posting must always be exemplary. As PizzaPlanet said, what defines their competence as moderators is their moderation, not their posting. Furthermore, all of us are human and are prone to making mistakes. What is important is that moderators understand the rules, try their best to follow them, and set a good example for others. This is simply a case of them adhering to the standard that is expected of all posters, and will be easier to measure once we have rules.
I also want to clarify the purpose of the Manifesto. The Manifesto governs administration and moderation, not posting; the rules (when they are formalised) will govern posting. In this sense, the moderators are to be held to the same standard (defined by the rules) as everyone else when posting, but to a different standard (defined by the Manifesto) when moderating.
This will all be simpler and easier once we have rules. Please sit tight until then.
However, this does not imply that their posting must always be exemplary. As PizzaPlanet said, what defines their competence as moderators is their moderation, not their posting. Furthermore, all of us are human and are prone to making mistakes. What is important is that moderators understand the rules, try their best to follow them, and set a good example for others. This is simply a case of them adhering to the standard that is expected of all posters, and will be easier to measure once we have rules.
I also want to clarify the purpose of the Manifesto. The Manifesto governs administration and moderation, not posting; the rules (when they are formalised) will govern posting. In this sense, the moderators are to be held to the same standard (defined by the rules) as everyone else when posting, but to a different standard (defined by the Manifesto) when moderating.
This will all be simpler and easier once we have rules. Please sit tight until then.
2269
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Forum rules: Draft 1
« on: December 17, 2013, 03:02:59 AM »
The process for addition of new rules will ultimately be specified in a future version of the Manifesto. For now, I just want to get some rules up so we have grounds for enforcement.
2270
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Forum rules: Draft 1
« on: December 17, 2013, 02:29:09 AM »Adding more rules can be the job of the council
The Council is there to run the Society, not the forum. As far as I'm concerned, forum rules are firmly within the jurisdiction of the forum admins.
Regarding your proposed list of rules; a rule should be clearly defined and have a specified penalty for breaking it, so that there is as little doubt as possible whether enforcement of it has been done correctly. A rule like "don't be offensive" is so widely open to interpretation that it may as well not exist.
My aim in this draft is to keep the set of rules as concise as possible, while still maintaining clarity. This is intended for members' benefit, so everyone knows exactly where they stand.
2271
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Forum rules: Draft 1
« on: December 16, 2013, 03:42:14 PM »Maybe we could have a process to ban members who haven't explicitly broken rules? Like, they could be nominated for bamhammeration by the council and there could be a vote among the moderators or something like that. Maybe there would have to be better checks and balances than that.
No, I don't think that's fair to anyone. People should know if they can be banned for something before they make the decision whether to take the action or not.
A better way of doing this is to simply add new rules as we discover behaviours that are undesirable. That way, the new rule applies equally to everyone. I intend to revise the Manifesto to formalise the process of adding new rules once we have a finalised set of rules.
2272
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Forum rules: Draft 1
« on: December 16, 2013, 04:54:16 AM »
Saddam is on the money here.
As for NSFW content; no, the exclusion of that was not intentional. My sleep cycle has been literally faggots in gravy the past week, and I'm not thinking as clearly as usual, so I'm hardly surprised if there are some glaring omissions.
As for NSFW content; no, the exclusion of that was not intentional. My sleep cycle has been literally faggots in gravy the past week, and I'm not thinking as clearly as usual, so I'm hardly surprised if there are some glaring omissions.
2273
Technology & Information / Re: SteamOS is out
« on: December 16, 2013, 03:57:19 AM »
I have to say, though, that I do like that they haven't tried to lock down the root account. Their FAQ even tells you how to gain root access. This seems like it would be useful for anyone who wants to run Linux, but spends most of their time playing games.
It's just another of the many special-purpose Debian derivatives, which I won't run for the same reasons I don't run any of the other Debian derivatives, but which could be immensely powerful for the right target audience.
It's just another of the many special-purpose Debian derivatives, which I won't run for the same reasons I don't run any of the other Debian derivatives, but which could be immensely powerful for the right target audience.
2274
Technology & Information / Re: SteamOS is out
« on: December 16, 2013, 03:03:10 AM »
So, what can I do on this that I can't already do on my Debian version of Steam (aside from turning my AMD video card into a dead weight)?
2275
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« on: December 15, 2013, 07:14:36 PM »I PMed Parsifal a couple of days ago and had no reply and as we want to get this going I just made the moves.
Thanks for handling this. I really have no interest in leading this; I was only making suggestions previously.
Sorry for not being too responsive lately; duty calls at work. I'd been giving this place a bit more than 100% of what I really should for the first week and a half to make sure it got off the ground smoothly, but now I think we've picked up enough momentum that that's no longer necessary.
2276
Suggestions & Concerns / Forum rules: Draft 1
« on: December 15, 2013, 06:54:55 PM »
This took longer than I'd intended to get around to. Sorry, work has been fairly busy lately. I'd also like to thank Supertails for coming up with an initial draft of this stuff, which I've then edited somewhat to produce the below.
I'm trying to keep these minimal. We can add more rules as we come across situations that highlight the need for them, but I'd rather not start with rules covering every possible circumstance under the Sun, as nobody is going to read them and they will be difficult to enforce. Let's start with some obvious ones and go from there.
Please post any comments or suggestions regarding these rules. I don't want to implement rules that aren't going to be for the benefit of the community, so feedback is definitely something you should err on the side of giving more rather than less of.
No personal attacks.
The Flat Earth boards are a place for debate, and debate is often heated and tense, but don't handle this situation by lashing out at others. Keep your posts civil and to the point, and don't begin insulting others. If you have run out of valid arguments, simply do not post. The exception to this rule is in Complete Nonsense and Angry Ranting, where personal attacks are par for the course. If you do not like this, then don't post in those fora.
Anyone seen personally attacking another member will be immediately warned. After two warnings, a ban with length determined by moderator discretion will be issued.
Stay on topic.
If what you're discussing isn't related to the thread's opening topic or a natural progression thereof, it's off-topic. Minor derailments will be handled by splitting the off-topic posts into another thread (possibly in another forum); repeat offenders will receive a warning. Depending on the frequency and severity of derailments, a short ban or restriction from specific subfora may be imposed after at least three warnings.
Do not disclose personal information.
Do not post any personal information relating another member without their express consent. Any post containing such information will be deleted immediately and a warning issued. A second offence will result in a ban, the length of which is up to moderator discretion.
Post in the appropriate forum.
Read each forum's description and ask yourself if your thread fits. Have a question about Flat Earth Theory? Post it in Flat Earth Q&A. Want to talk about Breaking Bad? That goes in Arts & Entertainment. Have casual discussion in The Lounge and rant about how your day went in Angry Ranting. If you have a suggestion or a concern to do with the forum, such as possible improvements or bugs, post it in Suggestions & Concerns—we'd appreciate it! See? That wasn't so hard.
For the purpose of handling offenders, this rule will be treated as a special case of the "stay on topic" rule.
Keep alternate accounts within reason.
We will be taking a very relaxed policy towards alternate accounts ("alts"), provided that people do not force us to take a stricter stance by abusing this policy. Alts are allowed, and will be permitted free reign across all fora, provided that they follow the rules for the forum they are posting in. FES has a history of alts that contribute to discussions in addition to the usual complement of spamming and trolling alts, and it would be a shame to try to restrict this.
There are two exceptions to this policy: one, an alt that is used for the purpose of furthering a main or another alt's argument without itself contributing a unique point of view on the situation ("sockpuppetting") will be immediately banned; two, an alt that is intended to impersonate a member either here or on the old FES will be immediately banned, and deleted if it is occupying the username of an old FES member, as otherwise it would bar them from registering here.
An alt breaking any rule that would ordinarily result in a warning can (at moderator discretion) be handled by immediately banning the alt account, and instead warning the main account of the person controlling it.
Use appropriate channels for seeking help.
If you have concerns about a member, a thread or specific posts, you have a few options. You can use the report post feature to alert the moderation staff to your issue; you can PM a moderator directly if you'd rather have a discussion with someone about the problem; or you can create a thread in Suggestions & Concerns if you'd rather open the situation to public discussion.
Posting complaints directly into the thread in question is only going to escalate the situation, and this will be treated as off-topic posting.
I'm trying to keep these minimal. We can add more rules as we come across situations that highlight the need for them, but I'd rather not start with rules covering every possible circumstance under the Sun, as nobody is going to read them and they will be difficult to enforce. Let's start with some obvious ones and go from there.
Please post any comments or suggestions regarding these rules. I don't want to implement rules that aren't going to be for the benefit of the community, so feedback is definitely something you should err on the side of giving more rather than less of.
No personal attacks.
The Flat Earth boards are a place for debate, and debate is often heated and tense, but don't handle this situation by lashing out at others. Keep your posts civil and to the point, and don't begin insulting others. If you have run out of valid arguments, simply do not post. The exception to this rule is in Complete Nonsense and Angry Ranting, where personal attacks are par for the course. If you do not like this, then don't post in those fora.
Anyone seen personally attacking another member will be immediately warned. After two warnings, a ban with length determined by moderator discretion will be issued.
Stay on topic.
If what you're discussing isn't related to the thread's opening topic or a natural progression thereof, it's off-topic. Minor derailments will be handled by splitting the off-topic posts into another thread (possibly in another forum); repeat offenders will receive a warning. Depending on the frequency and severity of derailments, a short ban or restriction from specific subfora may be imposed after at least three warnings.
Do not disclose personal information.
Do not post any personal information relating another member without their express consent. Any post containing such information will be deleted immediately and a warning issued. A second offence will result in a ban, the length of which is up to moderator discretion.
Post in the appropriate forum.
Read each forum's description and ask yourself if your thread fits. Have a question about Flat Earth Theory? Post it in Flat Earth Q&A. Want to talk about Breaking Bad? That goes in Arts & Entertainment. Have casual discussion in The Lounge and rant about how your day went in Angry Ranting. If you have a suggestion or a concern to do with the forum, such as possible improvements or bugs, post it in Suggestions & Concerns—we'd appreciate it! See? That wasn't so hard.
For the purpose of handling offenders, this rule will be treated as a special case of the "stay on topic" rule.
Keep alternate accounts within reason.
We will be taking a very relaxed policy towards alternate accounts ("alts"), provided that people do not force us to take a stricter stance by abusing this policy. Alts are allowed, and will be permitted free reign across all fora, provided that they follow the rules for the forum they are posting in. FES has a history of alts that contribute to discussions in addition to the usual complement of spamming and trolling alts, and it would be a shame to try to restrict this.
There are two exceptions to this policy: one, an alt that is used for the purpose of furthering a main or another alt's argument without itself contributing a unique point of view on the situation ("sockpuppetting") will be immediately banned; two, an alt that is intended to impersonate a member either here or on the old FES will be immediately banned, and deleted if it is occupying the username of an old FES member, as otherwise it would bar them from registering here.
An alt breaking any rule that would ordinarily result in a warning can (at moderator discretion) be handled by immediately banning the alt account, and instead warning the main account of the person controlling it.
Use appropriate channels for seeking help.
If you have concerns about a member, a thread or specific posts, you have a few options. You can use the report post feature to alert the moderation staff to your issue; you can PM a moderator directly if you'd rather have a discussion with someone about the problem; or you can create a thread in Suggestions & Concerns if you'd rather open the situation to public discussion.
Posting complaints directly into the thread in question is only going to escalate the situation, and this will be treated as off-topic posting.
2277
Technology & Information / Re: Laptop needed
« on: December 15, 2013, 04:37:08 AM »
This is literally the best thread ever.
2278
Arts & Entertainment / Re: Frank Zappa 1981 tour compilation album
« on: December 14, 2013, 12:14:05 PM »
I've updated my thoughts on disc 2. I'm not sure if all of that material is going to fit, but I'm going to try.
2279
Arts & Entertainment / Re: Frank Zappa 1981 tour compilation album
« on: December 14, 2013, 12:06:24 PM »I always meant to ask, why 1981? Was this a landmark tour for Zappa? Or just one that you have a complete collection of?
The 1982 tour has long been a favourite of mine, and I reviewed that one show-for-show earlier this year. The 1981 tour is the only other tour by the same band, albeit with a somewhat more primitive sound, so I wanted to listen to all of it as well.
2280
Arts & Entertainment / Re: Supes' Must-Listen-To List (Recommend me albums!)
« on: December 14, 2013, 12:05:00 PM »
I recommended this on IRC before, but it didn't get added. Frank Zappa - Them or Us.