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Offline Roundy

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #120 on: February 25, 2020, 05:13:19 PM »
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/484435-chris-matthews-apologizes-to-sanders-for-comparing-victory-to-nazi-invasion

Well, if the Democratic party's leaders and the liberal media don't stop campaigning for Trump by vilifying his biggest competitor before the nomination is even awarded, Trump will probably win again, good job guys, I mean who needs friends with enemies like this.  ::)
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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #121 on: February 25, 2020, 06:38:56 PM »
The Left and cannibalizing itself. Name a more iconic duo.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #122 on: February 26, 2020, 12:41:32 AM »
The media is accusing Bernie supporters of being Nazis and accusing Bernie of being a Russian asset. I feel like I've heard this all before, but where? Where have I heard this before?

Also I would criticize them for not at least being creative in their mudslinging, but the messaging works.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #123 on: February 26, 2020, 03:31:08 AM »
The media is accusing Bernie supporters of being Nazis and accusing Bernie of being a Russian asset. I feel like I've heard this all before, but where? Where have I heard this before?

Also I would criticize them for not at least being creative in their mudslinging, but the messaging works.

I was one of the first people (well, liberals anyway) to say that the media was hyperbolizing its attacks against Trump. I guess it worked so well with him (snicker) that they're doing it again now with poor Bernie.

Of course in Trump's case the bias was based largely on his already well-documented history of corruption, misogyny, and racism, whereas in Bernie's case it seems to be entirely founded on a general mistrust of socialism.  I therefore don't think that the fact that the media was mostly right about Trump after all should give any credence to their concerns now.  All that's left to determine is if Bernie can convince enough people that "socialism" isn't really a bad word like Trump managed to convince enough people that "evil" wasn't so bad. We can only hope.

Relevant?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21152538/bernie-sanders-electability-president-moderates-data

Does it seem like they were kind of looking for these results in the first place? The Democratic establishment just seems desperate to discredit Bernie. Smacks of confirmation bias to me.

I think Bernie stands the best chance of holding up to Trump in a debate, something that's barely even touched on in this article. Biden and Warren will be eviscerated. Buttigieg would have to win over a biased key demographic to win... not really impossible necessarily but something that will be difficult (yes, I recognize it's similar to Bernie's situation with socialism, but he already has so much built in support). Bloomberg? I recognize he has his supporters, but he feels like a joke to me (ecch, I think I said pretty much the same thing about Trump four years ago).  Klobuchar should just bow out gracefully at this point. Hell, most of them should. I guess they're still there to leach away delegates. Or maybe they really are just that greedy and self-serving.

None of the candidates are perfect. They all have their liabilities. On measure I stand by Bernie.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 03:33:31 AM by Roundy »
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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #124 on: February 26, 2020, 03:44:41 AM »
it seems to be entirely founded on a general mistrust of socialism.

Probably something to do with socialism's 100% record in regards to turning prosperous nations into burgeoning shitholes. Furthermore, Bernie isn't socialist, unless I'm misreading his policies rather severely.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #125 on: February 26, 2020, 04:06:37 AM »
it seems to be entirely founded on a general mistrust of socialism.

Probably something to do with socialism's 100% record in regards to turning prosperous nations into burgeoning shitholes. Furthermore, Bernie isn't socialist, unless I'm misreading his policies rather severely.

Maybe not. Whether or not he's technically a socialist makes no difference to me (actually it's surely better for him if he really isn't). I just like some of his ideas. Some are maybe a little extreme, but I don't think there's any danger we will become a socialist country. I just think the idea of sharing the wealth a bit is sound.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #126 on: February 26, 2020, 04:14:14 AM »
it seems to be entirely founded on a general mistrust of socialism.

Probably something to do with socialism's 100% record in regards to turning prosperous nations into burgeoning shitholes. Furthermore, Bernie isn't socialist, unless I'm misreading his policies rather severely.

Maybe not. Whether or not he's technically a socialist makes no difference to me (actually it's surely better for him if he really isn't). I just like some of his ideas. Some are maybe a little extreme, but I don't think there's any danger we will become a socialist country. I just think the idea of sharing the wealth a bit is sound.

We already spend more on welfare and healthcare per capita than any other Western nation. Our incredibly inefficient and overly large government is to blame for our ails, not the lack of money or "spreading the wealth". Bernie is proposing we hand over even more money to a government already proven to be completely irresponsible in handling money. The idea that our woes are caused because we're not handing over enough money to the government is blatantly untrue. All Bernie will be doing is exacerbating a problem already choking the nation. If Bernie wants to emulate European nations I suggest he start by trying to acquire more Europeans, because regardless of who has been president and who has been in Congress our country has been top down moronic when it comes to finances.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #127 on: February 26, 2020, 05:08:34 AM »
Bernie is the biggest meme candidate of all time. A self-proclaimed dEmOcRaTiC socialist who owns millions of dollars of private property, whose voters want him to bring down Amazon while they simultaneously fund it by buying their meme items. I've never been to a circus, but I imagine this is what it's like.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 07:00:33 AM by Fortuna »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #128 on: February 26, 2020, 06:03:41 AM »
it seems to be entirely founded on a general mistrust of socialism.

Probably something to do with socialism's 100% record in regards to turning prosperous nations into burgeoning shitholes. Furthermore, Bernie isn't socialist, unless I'm misreading his policies rather severely.

Maybe not. Whether or not he's technically a socialist makes no difference to me (actually it's surely better for him if he really isn't). I just like some of his ideas. Some are maybe a little extreme, but I don't think there's any danger we will become a socialist country. I just think the idea of sharing the wealth a bit is sound.

We already spend more on welfare and healthcare per capita than any other Western nation. Our incredibly inefficient and overly large government is to blame for our ails, not the lack of money or "spreading the wealth". Bernie is proposing we hand over even more money to a government already proven to be completely irresponsible in handling money. The idea that our woes are caused because we're not handing over enough money to the government is blatantly untrue. All Bernie will be doing is exacerbating a problem already choking the nation. If Bernie wants to emulate European nations I suggest he start by trying to acquire more Europeans, because regardless of who has been president and who has been in Congress our country has been top down moronic when it comes to finances.

But why do we spend so much?  Why does a normal vaginal birth with no complications cost $10,000? 
I think the issue stems from high cost of drugs and high cost of medical school/education.
Think about it: if you have 200k in debt when you become a professional and you have 10 years to pay that off, you need to make a ton of money a year just to meet monthly payments and live on your own.  Which is why doctors make over 200k a year.

The second is drugs.  It costs millions to develop them so to recover costs from successes and failures, the drugs need to be pricy.

Finally: America is a very sue happy nation.  Americans have it drilled into their collective cultural mind that pain = money in some way.  Mostly by bad lawyers, I suspect.  So malpractice insurance is expensive as hell.  Most oay between 4-12k a year, averaging around 7k.  Surgeons pay 30-50k.  So yeah.

I believe the solution is a 3 pronged approach.  First, grants for drug research.  We probably already do this so expand it with benefits for cheaper costs to the government.  Also drug price negotiations for basic stuff like saline packs and isulin.  Maybe bulk buying for national distribution.

Second, educational loan forgiveness.  A doctor who agrees to work for 10 years on a residency salary for public care (so medicare, medicaide, whatever...) Will have their loan forgiven without having any payments or interest.  If they move to private, they need to pay whatever balance is left based on how long they worked publically.

Third, malpractice: government paid but can be dropped if you pile up too many claims. (Ie. You are not a good doctor)
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #129 on: February 26, 2020, 09:32:55 AM »
But why do we spend so much?  Why does a normal vaginal birth with no complications cost $10,000?
Insurance. If a doctor makes a mistake, the mother or child could die, or the child could have life changing injuries.

You're not this ignorant are you, Dave? I mean, is this how Bernie gets so many Bros? Just people without any ability to put a few simple pieces together who then get mad about things they don't understand?


And your solution? Put the taxpayer on the hook for payouts instead of the PRIVATE hospitals that make the money. No liability for them. No responsibility. ... Mmmm, is this going to improve patient outcomes?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 09:36:54 AM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #130 on: February 26, 2020, 10:12:15 AM »
But why do we spend so much?  Why does a normal vaginal birth with no complications cost $10,000?
Insurance. If a doctor makes a mistake, the mother or child could die, or the child could have life changing injuries.

You're not this ignorant are you, Dave? I mean, is this how Bernie gets so many Bros? Just people without any ability to put a few simple pieces together who then get mad about things they don't understand?


And your solution? Put the taxpayer on the hook for payouts instead of the PRIVATE hospitals that make the money. No liability for them. No responsibility. ... Mmmm, is this going to improve patient outcomes?

Ok, first off.
Malpractice insurance is a thing doctors and hospitals pay.  It is not paid for by the patient though its probably factored into the cost, its not going to be enough to justify the cost.

Secondly, do you know what happens to people who get a mistake made in the US?  Their insurance still has to pay for fixing it (or them out of pocket) until they sue for the money back.

So no, insurance is not the reason.  Try again.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #131 on: February 26, 2020, 02:23:28 PM »
it seems to be entirely founded on a general mistrust of socialism.

Probably something to do with socialism's 100% record in regards to turning prosperous nations into burgeoning shitholes. Furthermore, Bernie isn't socialist, unless I'm misreading his policies rather severely.

Maybe not. Whether or not he's technically a socialist makes no difference to me (actually it's surely better for him if he really isn't). I just like some of his ideas. Some are maybe a little extreme, but I don't think there's any danger we will become a socialist country. I just think the idea of sharing the wealth a bit is sound.

We already spend more on welfare and healthcare per capita than any other Western nation. Our incredibly inefficient and overly large government is to blame for our ails, not the lack of money or "spreading the wealth". Bernie is proposing we hand over even more money to a government already proven to be completely irresponsible in handling money. The idea that our woes are caused because we're not handing over enough money to the government is blatantly untrue. All Bernie will be doing is exacerbating a problem already choking the nation. If Bernie wants to emulate European nations I suggest he start by trying to acquire more Europeans, because regardless of who has been president and who has been in Congress our country has been top down moronic when it comes to finances.

No doubt, look at what Trump's policies are doing to our deficit right now. It doesn't change the fact that millions of people in this country don't have basic access to reasonable healthcare. Until we at least catch up to the rest of the civilized world in that regard it is a problem in my opinion. Bernie seems most invested in making that happen.
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Offline juner

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #132 on: February 26, 2020, 02:49:02 PM »
Bernie is the biggest meme candidate of all time. A self-proclaimed dEmOcRaTiC socialist who owns millions of dollars of private property, whose voters want him to bring down Amazon while they simultaneously fund it by buying their meme items. I've never been to a circus, but I imagine this is what it's like.

Nothing about Bernie's positions precludes him from having a net worth. He isn't calling for the abolition of private property. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make here. If anything, his net worth is too low for someone still working past average retirement age. The basic example is if you want to retire at 65 on 100K/yr then you should have 2.5MM in investment income available the day you retire.

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Offline Shane

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #133 on: February 26, 2020, 11:53:59 PM »
He has a house in DC, a house in Vermont, and a vacation home he bought after selling a vacation property he inherited. Wow what a hypocrite
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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #134 on: February 27, 2020, 07:42:07 AM »
He has a house in DC, a house in Vermont, and a vacation home he bought after selling a vacation property he inherited. Wow what a hypocrite

I know, right?  I mean, who does he think he is, living in the two areas he has to work at?  And a vacation home?  OMG!  He needs to timeshare like my aunt sally!

(That was sarcastic fyi)
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #135 on: February 28, 2020, 04:21:59 PM »
I don't understand why people keep running with this. Do people really think that a net worth of 2 million as a senior citizen makes someone super wealthy? ???

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #136 on: February 28, 2020, 05:08:54 PM »
Do people really think that a net worth of 2 million as a senior citizen makes someone super wealthy? ???
Well, he's in the top 10% of senior citizens in the USA. Without splitting hairs over what you call "super wealthy", he's wealthier than 90% of people of his age group, and just short of 95% of all Americans.

Keep in mind that while his net worth doesn't look too extremely impressive compared to the ~$1M average for his age bracket, the median of $250,000 tells a different story.

Note that this doesn't mean that someone of his position shouldn't be wealthy - it's just a bit silly to have your main defence be "huh $2m is no big deal, how is that even rich?"
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 05:15:21 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #137 on: February 28, 2020, 05:51:35 PM »
They should probably be attacking bloomberg instead.  Bernie is small potatoes.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #138 on: February 28, 2020, 08:23:44 PM »
Do people really think that a net worth of 2 million as a senior citizen makes someone super wealthy? ???
Well, he's in the top 10% of senior citizens in the USA. Without splitting hairs over what you call "super wealthy", he's wealthier than 90% of people of his age group, and just short of 95% of all Americans.

Keep in mind that while his net worth doesn't look too extremely impressive compared to the ~$1M average for his age bracket, the median of $250,000 tells a different story.

Note that this doesn't mean that someone of his position shouldn't be wealthy - it's just a bit silly to have your main defence be "huh $2m is no big deal, how is that even rich?"

I mean, like junker said, it's not even enough to really retire comfortably, so if that's top 10 percent I feel like it speaks more to how many senior citizens in this country are poor rather than anything about his own level of wealth.

It's not quite up to the level that most people in this country consider rich; admittedly it's not far off, but it doesn't reach the threshold.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bernie 2020
« Reply #139 on: February 28, 2020, 08:28:20 PM »
I mean, like junker said, it's not even enough to really retire comfortably, so if that's top 10 percent I feel like it speaks more to how many senior citizens in this country are poor rather than anything about his own level of wealth.

It's not quite up to the level that most people in this country consider rich; admittedly it's not far off, but it doesn't reach the threshold.
I don't necessarily disagree - it would be nice if people were richer, and not poorer. But equally, I think it's silly to pretend that the top 5% of all Americans is not particularly wealthy. Perhaps the American viewpoint on the matter is different, but given how many Americans keep saying Bernie is wealthy, I'm not immediately convinced that your view is as ubiquitous as you're painting it.

That said, a $100k/year retirement is much more than just "comfortable". That's more than most people will ever hope to earn. I wouldn't take junker's figures at face value.

They should probably be attacking bloomberg instead.  Bernie is small potatoes.
Well, for sure. That's exactly what Bernie wants you to do, too. He keeps asking how much luxury properties billionnaires need, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't need 3 homes.

From where I'm standing, the joke here is that Bernie is rich while also saying "rich people bad". I disagree with it as a serious position - again, a senior lifelong politician should be fairly well off, I reckon that's only fair, especially when the man has raked in well over a million on books in the last 3 years alone - but I do at least partially understand where these people are coming from. He's not exactly the embodiment of the proletariat that he's trying to promote himself as.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 08:37:01 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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