[Snupes]

You two are so cute. I can't resist pointing out the obvious.

How does Blanko and I being cute together (which we are, no shit detective) pertain to the irrelevant and nonsensical "circlejerk" posts when I didn't participate with him in this thread whatsoever?

I don't think arguing here is worth it. It's like arguing with Thork on the old site all over again; I thought I escaped that fate

This entire debate is pretty off-topic (not for long, but) and I'm addressing your arguments (mainly the structure of them) so I would argue that I'm quite on topic, but I digress and, as the quote above indicates, I'm done.

[Ghost of V]

You two are so cute. I can't resist pointing out the obvious.

How does Blanko and I being cute together (which we are, no shit detective) pertain to the irrelevant and nonsensical "circlejerk" posts when I didn't participate with him in this thread whatsoever?

I don't think arguing here is worth it. It's like arguing with Thork on the old site all over again; I thought I escaped that fate

This entire debate is pretty off-topic (not for long, but) and I'm addressing your arguments (mainly the structure of them) so I would argue that I'm quite on topic, but I digress and, as the quote above indicates, I'm done.

You're not. You're bitching about ad-hominems when there is more to my argument than that. Good show, though.

[Ghost of V]

Feel better now? 

[Snupes]

You're not. You're bitching about ad-hominems when there is more to my argument than that.

What does my bitching have to do with my posts being off-topic

Ad-hominems are a part of your arguments and I'm addressing them. I've even specifically specified that those are the parts I am addressing

Feel better now? 

That was the "Now Playing" thread, not the "bitch about Sonic" thread. I realize you're upset and are trying to milk any opportunity for a "lol u mad!!!" moment, but be happy I even dignified this trainwreck of an argument with a thread split. I'm not sure why you think a routine thread split would be an angry reaction, I don't care that much about internet posts by a stranger.

[Ghost of V]

That was the "Now Playing" thread, not the "bitch about Sonic" thread. I realize you're upset and are trying to milk any opportunity for a "lol u mad!!!" moment, but be happy I even dignified this trainwreck of an argument with a thread split. I'm not sure why you think a routine thread split would be an angry reaction, I don't care that much about internet posts by a stranger.

Discussing games in the game thread?  Outrageous!

Btw, the only ones bitching about Sonic are you and Blanko.

[Snupes]

I know that this is difficult, but that is the "Now Playing" thread, for games you are (bear with me here) now playing. It was my mistake to post it there in the first place. I didn't think it would spawn six pages of horribleness and didn't think it was worth wasting a thread on. Clearly I was right on the latter part, but not the former.

Btw, the only ones bitching about Sonic are you and Blanko.

Did I say otherwise, or are you still just trying to be all cool, edgy and provocative?

[Ghost of V]

I know that this is difficult, but that is the "Now Playing" thread, for games you are (bear with me here) now playing. It was my mistake to post it there in the first place. I didn't think it would spawn six pages of horribleness and didn't think it was worth wasting a thread on. Clearly I was right on the latter part, but not the former.

Btw, the only ones bitching about Sonic are you and Blanko.

Did I say otherwise, or are you still just trying to be all cool and provocative?

I guess discussing movies and whatnot in the "Now Playing" thread about those things is prohibited as well, right?

[Snupes]

I know that this is difficult, but that is the "Now Playing" thread, for games you are (bear with me here) now playing. It was my mistake to post it there in the first place. I didn't think it would spawn six pages of horribleness and didn't think it was worth wasting a thread on. Clearly I was right on the latter part, but not the former.

Btw, the only ones bitching about Sonic are you and Blanko.

Did I say otherwise, or are you still just trying to be all cool and provocative?

I guess discussing movies and whatnot in the "Now Playing" thread about those things is prohibited as well, right?

Where did I say it was prohibited?

[Ghost of V]

I know that this is difficult, but that is the "Now Playing" thread, for games you are (bear with me here) now playing. It was my mistake to post it there in the first place. I didn't think it would spawn six pages of horribleness and didn't think it was worth wasting a thread on. Clearly I was right on the latter part, but not the former.

Btw, the only ones bitching about Sonic are you and Blanko.

Did I say otherwise, or are you still just trying to be all cool and provocative?

I guess discussing movies and whatnot in the "Now Playing" thread about those things is prohibited as well, right?

Where did I say it was prohibited?

You certainly seem to think that discussing games in the "Now Playing" thread is not allowed, so shouldn't that apply to the "Now Playing" thread about movies/shows? Or is there a different reason you split the thread? 

[Vindictus]

This argument was consuming the thread and drowning out any other discussion.

[Blanko]

You're not. You're bitching about ad-hominems when there is more to my argument than that. Good show, though.

Really? It's occurred to me that you've agreed with every single flaw I've pointed out in this thread, and the only thing you've done is attempt to downplay them as "nitpickery", "circlejerking", "bitching" or that "every platformer is that way". And probably something else I'm forgetting. All this time you've done or said nothing to demonstrate that there's anything good underneath all those flaws. You're just conceding to everything I say but only to the extent of what your fanboy pride allows.

[Snupes]

You certainly seem to think that discussing games in the "Now Playing" thread is not allowed [...]

Incorrect

Or is there a different reason you split the thread? 

Yes, I split it because it's six pages about Sonic and I figured it would better serve as its own thread, rather than muck up the other one with 90% bitching about Sonic and another 10% that's both general bitching and unrelated to video games. Rule-breaking is not the only reason for thread splits, and we have many times split threads because they would better serve as their own thread. It was cluttering the thread up and serving as a detterent against other discussion and as an annoyance to those who had to wade through six pages of moaning because they wanted to see what other people are playing.

Why do you care so much? I can't tell if you're just still all grumpy from the debate and trying to find other things to justify complaining about or if you're being such a clever and pulling a Rushy still.

[Ghost of V]

You're not. You're bitching about ad-hominems when there is more to my argument than that. Good show, though.

Really? It's occurred to me that you've agreed with every single flaw I've pointed out in this thread, and the only thing you've done is attempt to downplay them as "nitpickery", "circlejerking", "bitching" or that "every platformer is that way". And probably something else I'm forgetting. All this time you've done or said nothing to demonstrate that there's anything good underneath all those flaws. You're just conceding to everything I say but only to the extent of what your fanboy pride allows.

I don't agree that they are flaws. I agree that your criticisms exist within the game, but I have given reasons as to why it's not important. The mechanics given to you make almost all the flaws you've vehemently argued irrelevant. If you choose not to use the tools given to you then you're going to have problems with the game. You dislike the options given to you, fine. That's ok, but that's your opinion and the game works as advertised (Sonic going fast) because of those tools, whether you like it or not.

The game gives you ample tools to succeed, you just don't like the tools given. This is where you start nitpicking.

[Blanko]

but I have given reasons as to why it's not important.

This is where you start nitpicking.

Downplaying.

That's all you do. It's not as bad as you think it is! You just don't understand platformers! You haven't said a single thing about how these mechanics are actually good, and that's because you don't actually have any issue admitting that they are flawed. The issue comes in when you refuse to admit that they're "important" flaws. Hell, I don't even need to tell you this, since that's literally what you just said yourself. I'm nitpicking? Why aren't you trying to tell me why I'm wrong about these flaws existing in the first place if you're so convinced that the games are good? Why is it that all you're doing is dodging everything I say with shitty ad hominems?

[Ghost of V]

Your problems with Sonic change depending on what my response is, so why don't you just make a coherent list of all the things you're bitching about so that I can break it down for you easier. Once you figure out what the hell you're talking about I think that will make it a bit easier for me. At least this way I can keep track of all your nitpicking.

[Blanko]

Why? You've stated that you've addressed all of my points and I've drawn the appropriate conclusions. Is there something you'd like to change?

Also,

>bitching
>nitpicking

It's hilarious how eager you are to confirm what I'm saying.

[Ghost Spaghetti]

You know how stars in Mario allow you to kill enemies by dashing through them? That's the equivalent of rolling in Sonic games. You only get that powerup very sparingly in Mario because of how blatantly overpowered it is. This is something you can do in Sonic at will.

Except that when rolling you have the advantage of smashing through enemies at the cost of control, you're pretty much at the mercy of the terrain forcing you to weigh up whether it's likely that there'll be enemies or traps to deal with. Sonic 1 is notable that in most cases you can tell pretty quickly if you're supposed to be rolling or running by the loops, jumps and flicks in the levels until you get to the Star Light Zone which flips it on its head.

You and Chris seem to be under the impression that being easy makes it fine, but it doesn't.

Clearly never got to Star Light or the Scrap Brain zones in the first sonic. Even ring-juggling won't save you there

Did you watch the part of the video where they counted how many frames it takes for an obstacle to reach Sonic's model from the edge of the screen at a high speed?

Well, if you will run at high speed whilst just pressing right, what do you expect? You seem to assume that you should always be running as quickly as possible. Speed is just a tool like jumping, rolling or turbo dashing; even in the 'roller-coaster' type areas ("you just let the game play itself") if you look, they miss so many alternative routes, power-ups, etc that it pays you to slow down and explore.

Sonic is one of the few platformers I can remember which gave you so many ways to play through the levels.
Quick 'n' dirty (run like a lunatic and rely on rings to keep you alive)
Careful Platformer (run when you need to, otherwise, walk and jump your way through)
Observant explorer (Find all the hidden nooks and crannies - especially true from Sonic 3 and Knuckles where Tails and Knuckles had totally new routes through based on their abilities)

I admit that the game mechanics aren't as suited to the first style as the marketing would lead you to believe, something they've worked on in later 2D platformers with dynamic cameras and fewer ambush enemies.

or walls

Whut?

[Blanko]

Except that when rolling you have the advantage of smashing through enemies at the cost of control, you're pretty much at the mercy of the terrain forcing you to weigh up whether it's likely that there'll be enemies or traps to deal with. Sonic 1 is notable that in most cases you can tell pretty quickly if you're supposed to be rolling or running by the loops, jumps and flicks in the levels until you get to the Star Light Zone which flips it on its head.

Or you could just memorise the levels, right? In any case, I don't see much reason for not rolling when you're moving fast, as you're already at a loss of control.

Clearly never got to Star Light or the Scrap Brain zones in the first sonic. Even ring-juggling won't save you there

I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a good thing. That just makes it so it's not fulfilling its purpose of keeping you alive.

Well, if you will run at high speed whilst just pressing right, what do you expect? You seem to assume that you should always be running as quickly as possible. Speed is just a tool like jumping, rolling or turbo dashing; even in the 'roller-coaster' type areas ("you just let the game play itself") if you look, they miss so many alternative routes, power-ups, etc that it pays you to slow down and explore.

Sonic is one of the few platformers I can remember which gave you so many ways to play through the levels.
Quick 'n' dirty (run like a lunatic and rely on rings to keep you alive)
Careful Platformer (run when you need to, otherwise, walk and jump your way through)
Observant explorer (Find all the hidden nooks and crannies - especially true from Sonic 3 and Knuckles where Tails and Knuckles had totally new routes through based on their abilities)

Considering how much the games railroad you towards slopes and boosters, and how your only form of speed control is not holding right, I'd say that the first style is much more prominent and expected than the other two. Indeed,  I would say that the only time you're expected to not go fast is when you're not playing as Sonic.

I admit that the game mechanics aren't as suited to the first style as the marketing would lead you to believe, something they've worked on in later 2D platformers with dynamic cameras and fewer ambush enemies.

It's nice that you can say that without resorting to one of Vauxy's favourite words. You're much better at this.

Whut?

What?

[Ghost Spaghetti]

Or you could just memorise the levels, right? In any case, I don't see much reason for not rolling when you're moving fast, as you're already at a loss of control.

You're not, though. There are times when you'll shoot past where you need to go if you roll, whereas if you're quick with going to the left trigger, you can either do a quick backtrack or stop before you pass it.

I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a good thing. That just makes it so it's not fulfilling its purpose of keeping you alive.

The purpose isn't to grant you invulnerability but to keep you alive if you make a mistake or hit an ambush enemy.

Considering how much the games railroad you towards slopes and boosters, and how your only form of speed control is not holding right, I'd say that the first style is much more prominent and expected than the other two. Indeed,  I would say that the only time you're expected to not go fast is when you're not playing as Sonic.

I think it's actually less than you might think. the only levels I remember having those 'roller coaster' secions where the game does pretty much play itself if you're going for the first strategy are the Ice Cap zone, bits of the Chemical Plant Zone and the Marble Garden Zone, even then they don't take up the majority of the levels. In the Ice cap there are careful jumps across falling icicles, in Chemical plant there are the tricky underwater bits and the block hopping bits and in MGZ there are the flying parts.

It's nice that you can say that without resorting to one of Vauxy's favourite words. You're much better at this.

They're not perfect games, but neither are they bad or 'the most overrated games in history.' If the original sonics were to be remade, I think there are a lot of features from games like Advance and Rush which would be incorporated and solve some of the problems (Dynamic cameras which move the sprite to the back of the screen, widescreen displays, the insta-boost to get your speed back up after being hit, etc)

What?

Well, first, I can only think of two, maybe three instances where your flow is completely interrupted by a wall in the way (even then, if you remember to jump or roll you can usually get past it) Second, why is running into a wall necessarily a Really Bad Thing? it slows the action no more than going down the pipes slow Mario.

[Blanko]

You're not, though. There are times when you'll shoot past where you need to go if you roll, whereas if you're quick with going to the left trigger, you can either do a quick backtrack or stop before you pass it.

How many times would that be? Usually you could just stay on your current route, or alternate routes are reachable from a rolling state. Either way, rolling seems to be a much safer bet when you don't know what's ahead of you and you're moving too fast to react to things; Vauxy seems to agree, as he believes that rolling removes literally all of my issues with the games. Except for the fact that there are stage hazards, but you know.

The purpose isn't to grant you invulnerability but to keep you alive if you make a mistake or hit an ambush enemy.

Fair enough.

I think it's actually less than you might think. the only levels I remember having those 'roller coaster' secions where the game does pretty much play itself if you're going for the first strategy are the Ice Cap zone, bits of the Chemical Plant Zone and the Marble Garden Zone, even then they don't take up the majority of the levels. In the Ice cap there are careful jumps across falling icicles, in Chemical plant there are the tricky underwater bits and the block hopping bits and in MGZ there are the flying parts.

Yes, I did already mention that there are a lot of sections where you can't go fast in the first place because Vauxy was arguing against it. That's where we run into another issue; Sonic is designed to go fast. He has heavy natural acceleration in his movement and his turning speed is sluggish. As such he's designed to perform well when going fast over long stretches, but poorly in precision platforming.

They're not perfect games, but neither are they bad or 'the most overrated games in history.' If the original sonics were to be remade, I think there are a lot of features from games like Advance and Rush which would be incorporated and solve some of the problems (Dynamic cameras which move the sprite to the back of the screen, widescreen displays, the insta-boost to get your speed back up after being hit, etc)

I'm not arguing that they're "the most overrated games in history" (that one goes to Bioshock Infinite). I'm not even arguing that these games are necessarily not fun; I'm just saying that there's a lot of underlying core issues that can be ignored if your parents hated you and didn't get you a SNES instead, but they're still there and as such I wouldn't place Sonic games anywhere near to contention for some of "the best platformers of all time". Again, it's fine if you like it. But then it's just in contention for your personal favorite game.

And yes, I think those simple fixes would go a long way in making the games better.

Well, first, I can only think of two, maybe three instances where your flow is completely interrupted by a wall in the way (even then, if you remember to jump or roll you can usually get past it) Second, why is running into a wall necessarily a Really Bad Thing? it slows the action no more than going down the pipes slow Mario.

Because in Sonic you're stopping because you don't have enough time to react to obstacles. In Mario going down pipes is exciting, and you want to go down pipes. So having a little downtime there to build up suspense is understandable. You see that sort of thing a lot, for instance with chests in Zelda.

Imagine playing a driving game where there are random walls that you can't see until they're ten feet away from you. That's what playing Sonic feels like.