[Ghost of V]

No, you're really not addressing anything. I'm saying that rolling and collecting rings don't solve major issues with the game, and your response is, have you tried rolling and collecting rings? Also have you tried to git gud??

I think they understand, and they also understand that it exists purely as compensation for poor level design. Same goes for the ring system where you can just juggle one ring forever.

You seem to imply that they solve most of the issues, but were added just to solve those issues.

Please get back to us when you understand your own arguments.

[Blanko]

No, that's not what compensation means. It means that the mechanics only exist to disguise bad level design. That is not a good thing. You can only solve bad level design by not having bad level design.

Besides, they are terribly implemented in their own rights. Rolling pretty much renders enemy design completely irrelevant when it works, and doesn't provide a solution for anything when it doesn't. When it works, it's mechanically equivalent to not having any enemies in the game at all. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing. Rings, on the other hand, make you immortal. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing.

[Ghost of V]

No, that's not what compensation means. It means that the mechanics only exist to disguise bad level design. That is not a good thing. You can only solve bad level design by not having bad level design.

Besides, they are terribly implemented in their own rights. Rolling pretty much renders enemy design completely irrelevant when it works, and doesn't provide a solution for anything when it doesn't. When it works, it's mechanically equivalent to not having any enemies in the game at all. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing. Rings, on the other hand, make you immortal. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing.

Cool opinions, Blanko. Like before, I'm sure you could design a much better Sonic game. I'm eager to see your work.

[Particle Person]

I wonder who will change their mind and respectfully admit that the other was right all along first.

Also, "let's see you make a better game" is always an effective and logical argument.

[Blanko]

No, that's not what compensation means. It means that the mechanics only exist to disguise bad level design. That is not a good thing. You can only solve bad level design by not having bad level design.

Besides, they are terribly implemented in their own rights. Rolling pretty much renders enemy design completely irrelevant when it works, and doesn't provide a solution for anything when it doesn't. When it works, it's mechanically equivalent to not having any enemies in the game at all. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing. Rings, on the other hand, make you immortal. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing.

Cool opinions, Blanko. Like before, I'm sure you could design a much better Sonic game. I'm eager to see your work.

I've made some new points. Surely you should be addressing them, as you are convinced that the games are the greatest thing ever, no?

[Ghost of V]

Besides, they are terribly implemented in their own rights. Rolling pretty much renders enemy design completely irrelevant when it works, and doesn't provide a solution for anything when it doesn't. When it works, it's mechanically equivalent to not having any enemies in the game at all. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing. Rings, on the other hand, make you immortal. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing.

Killing enemies by rolling makes enemy design completely irrelevant? This isn't a fucking RPG, Blanko. Sonic can't use fire magic to melt an enemy's ice-shield and then hit him on the glowing crystal on its stomach. It's a platformer. Once again, I'm almost convinced you have no idea what a platformer is. A lot of the enemies are there to be an obstalce and slow you down, rolling kills them. Ok. I don't see how that's a problem other than the fact that you don't like it, and that's fine... but it doesn't make the game badly designed.  At this point you're nitpicking very basic conventions that exist withn all platformers.

Jumping on Goomba heads in Mario kills them. Almost all enemies die from head jumps. Maybe there should be more strategy to killing enemies in ancient platformers? But there isn't. You're nitpicking.

Platformers are not even close to being my favorite genre, and I dislike most of them with the exception of a few Mario games, Megaman X, and Sonic 2 & 3 on the Genesis. Even then, each game has it's own flaws... but most of them stem from the fact that they are platformers.

Sonic 3 is not a perfect game, and I have never claimed it was. But going as far as to call it "terrible" or "poorly designed" in the grand-sense is ignorant and/or based on personal bias. Sonic is a fun game. If you keep dying because of off-screen enemies then you are not playing the game correctly, period.

[Saddam Hussein]

Jumping on Goomba heads in Mario kills them. Almost all enemies die from head jumps. Maybe there should be more strategy to killing enemies in ancient platformers? But there isn't. You're nitpicking.

Hey, hey, let's see you make a better game before you start criticizing Mario, okay?

[Blanko]

Killing enemies by rolling makes enemy design completely irrelevant? This isn't a fucking RPG, Blanko. Sonic can't use fire magic to melt an enemy's ice-shield and then hit him on the glowing crystal on its stomach. It's a platformer. Once again, I'm almost convinced you have no idea what a platformer is. A lot of the enemies are there to be an obstalce and slow you down, rolling kills them. Ok. I don't see how that's a problem other than the fact that you don't like it, and that's fine... but it doesn't make the game badly designed.  At this point you're nitpicking very basic conventions that exist withn all platformers.

Jumping on Goomba heads in Mario kills them. Almost all enemies die from head jumps. Maybe there should be more strategy to killing enemies in ancient platformers? But there isn't. You're nitpicking.

You know how stars in Mario allow you to kill enemies by dashing through them? That's the equivalent of rolling in Sonic games. You only get that powerup very sparingly in Mario because of how blatantly overpowered it is. This is something you can do in Sonic at will.

Besides, Sonic has head jumps. Why does it need rolling as well?

Platformers are not even close to being my favorite genre, and I dislike most of them with the exception of a few Mario games, Megaman X, and Sonic 2 & 3 on the Genesis. Even then, each game has it's own flaws... but most of them stem from the fact that they are platformers.

Oh, so it turns out that you don't like platformers. How about that shit.

Sonic 3 is not a perfect game, and I have never claimed it was. But going as far as to call it "terrible" or "poorly designed" in the grand-sense is ignorant and/or based on personal bias. Sonic is a fun game. If you keep dying because of off-screen enemies then you are not playing the game correctly, period.

You know what's also ignorant and/or based on personal bias? Calling a game with massive fundamental flaws "the greatest 2D platformer ever made". It's fine if you personally like it, but then it's just "your favourite 2D platformer". Say things you actually mean instead of deliberately misleading people.

[Ghost of V]

Originally your argument was "you have to stop too often, enemies come out of nowhere and hurt you. This is not good because Sonic is too fast, yet the game is designed to slow him down to compensate".

Now that you've discovered rolling exists, which solves the "Sonic is too fast" dilemma (because this makes it easier to maintain Sonic's momentum), enemies are pointless and the game is too easy. You're flip flopping.


Make up your damn mind, Balkno.

Secondly, Sonic has a boss at the end of each stage. Mario doesn't. Therefore, enemies being too easy in Sonic isn't really a big deal since the main challenge in Sonic and speeding through the level (which is entirely possible, even without getting hit). Regardless, not all enemies are killed simply by rolling. There are others that are armored, on fire, etc. Meaning you have to switch up your strategy. Sonic also has a similar "star" power up, which has just as much utility as its counterpart.


I also said "Sonic 3 is one of the best platformers ever made". The best platformer is easily Mega Man X.

[Blanko]

First of all, enemies are not the only obstacles in the games. I've mainly been talking about actual stage hazards when it comes to stopping your momentum. Second of all, you should never design your enemies so that the only way to make them work within your game is to make them pointless. This is all just going back to the fact that they try to make Sonic going too fast work by giving him a bunch of tools that in turn undermine a lot of other aspects in the games, instead of - you know - not making Sonic too fast for the game you are trying to make. Again, that's where the argument on marketing comes in. The developers were hellbent on making Sonic really fucking fast to showcase the BLAAAAAAST PROCESSING that they would rather cover up the downfalls of the system with unnecessary mechanics instead of not having the system in the first place.

[Snupes]

No, it just means I'm done arguing with your circlejerk argument that is based on exaggeration and flat-out lack of understanding of the game mechanics. You know you're wrong and you know why, but you still insist on grasping at straws.

Fuck, the irony. I've been ad-hominemed thrice in posts not even addressed towards me in a thread I haven't been posting in. I was going to actually address your fucking points, but seeing as nothing from your keyboard without a snarky, acidic tone (including LOL o so funy grade school insults) and you seemingly deliberately dodge points in favour of saying "your suck at game", I don't think arguing here is worth it. It's like arguing with Thork on the old site all over again; I thought I escaped that fate

[Ghost of V]

No, it just means I'm done arguing with your circlejerk argument that is based on exaggeration and flat-out lack of understanding of the game mechanics. You know you're wrong and you know why, but you still insist on grasping at straws.

Fuck, the irony. I've been ad-hominemed thrice in posts not even addressed towards me in a thread I haven't been posting in. I was going to actually address your fucking points, but seeing as nothing from your keyboard without a snarky, acidic tone (including LOL o so funy grade school insults) and you seemingly deliberately dodge points in favour of saying "your suck at game", I don't think arguing here is worth it. It's like arguing with Thork on the old site all over again; I thought I escaped that fate

Welcome to the internet. I thought I was being tame.

Besides, I've address all of Blanko's points. Acting like I haven't doesn't make them less valid.

[Blanko]

It's not so clever when Rushy is doing it, is it?

[Ghost of V]

Lack of understanding & circlejerk = ad-hominem attacks. I could understand if that's all I said, but I guess it's just too difficult to read other posts, huh?

[Blanko]

That was the most ironic post I've ever read.

[Ghost of V]

That was the most ironic post I've ever read.

Aweeeee. 

[Snupes]

No, it just means I'm done arguing with your circlejerk argument that is based on exaggeration and flat-out lack of understanding of the game mechanics. [...]


Sonic is playable at high speeds for everyone else except you and Snupes, weird.

Have you stopped to think that you just suck at Sonic?

Back to "git gud", I see. Did you watch the part of the video where they counted how many frames it takes for an obstacle to reach Sonic's model from the edge of the screen at a high speed? I guess that's grasping at straws, because everyone else is just so good at Sonic that they have literally superhuman reaction speeds. :^)

Maybe you shouldn't base your arguments off a video your BFF happens to agree with. Perhaps play the game and get back to us?

They also criticise the story. Let's be honest, if you're judging most 8-16 bit games on their story they'd almost all be awful.

It was fun entertaining Snupes & Blanko's circlejerk, though.

Note, of course, that I hadn't actually participated with Blanko at all, nor addressed any of his points other than saying "I'll post when I can, but Blanko and Rushy seem to have the same points as me". Nor had I really debated with you much other than addressing the tone of your posts. But no, it's "Snupes & Blanko's circlejerk" because how else would you add such a hilariously witty, relevant and needle-sharp riposte to your posts. :]]]]]]

[Ghost of V]

Note, of course, that I hadn't actually participated with Blanko at all, nor addressed any of his points other than saying "I'll post when I can, but Blanko and Rushy seem to have the same points as me". Nor had I really debated with you much other than addressing the tone of your posts. But no, it's "Snupes & Blanko's circlejerk" because how else would you add such a hilariously witty, relevant and needle-sharp riposte to your posts. :]]]]]]

You two are so cute. I can't resist pointing out the obvious.

But hey, you're off-topic. How about addressing the points I made?

[Blanko]

I think I'll have to take back the comparison to Rushy I made. See, Rushy is at least self-aware what kind of image he's conveying. I don't think you are.

[Ghost of V]

I think I'll have to take back the comparison to Rushy I made. See, Rushy is at least self-aware what kind of image he's conveying. I don't think you are.

Ad hominem off-topic reported.