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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #480 on: July 06, 2022, 06:26:57 PM »
So your tactic is now to defend late-term abortions by claiming that they rarely happen.

No, I am saying that it is a moral panic you are creating.

Quote
So, it does happen. Whether is it one third trimester baby who is sawed apart, or thousands, wrong is wrong.

I think I have already said that I would prefer legislation that differentiates between medically necessary and elective abortions, that seems a reasonable provision to put in.  It is proposterous to say that the NNU endorses elective third trimester abortions considering they specifically call out unnecessary medical restrictions and have a code of ethics.  You aren't willing to have a serious conversation on the topic and solely wish to deal with extreme situations, so we are done until the next time you post something idiotic (see you tomorrow).
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline BillO

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #481 on: July 06, 2022, 07:06:37 PM »
.. freedom in public policy ..
Hilarious!

As in .. NO freedom to teach evolution and NO freedom to provide the right for women to access abortion.

Right-wing religious groups are a constant source of comedy.
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Offline Clyde Frog

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #482 on: July 06, 2022, 10:12:41 PM »
Imagine identifying as Republican in the US and alsonchampioming having the government make decisions on what kind of healthcare a person should be eligible to receive. What about personal liberty, coupled with personal responsibility, without a bunch of government oversight?

Some people really think federal, state, and local governments should be involved in decisions between a doctor and patient. The people best equipped, and the people with the strongest vested interest of the wellbeing of all parties involved in that interaction, are in the exam room. Maybe we should let doctors just do their job? It's not like they don't have years and years of very specialized training.

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Offline BillO

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #483 on: July 07, 2022, 01:04:31 AM »
Maybe we should let doctors just do their job? It's not like they don't have years and years of very specialized training.
That would make sense and put no money in a Republican politician's pocket.  Until the SC get's a little balance I feel this reasonable concept hasn't a gnat's change in a bug zapper.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #484 on: July 07, 2022, 10:29:18 AM »
If this should be a lawless and unregulated matter that is "up to women" then it should be shown that young women are independently capable of making completely correct choices on this subject that they would not come to regret and would not deeply affect them psychologically in long-term trauma. A number of women claim that they were naive about the ramifications of the procedure and that abortion affected them profoundly and was too easy to get. They trusted the process because it was legal. If it's legal then a common person would logically expect that it is properly regulated and pre-determined that it would not harm them. Why don't they deserve to be protected as they expect to be protected?

A number of states have rightfully implemented laws regarding waiting periods and mandatory counseling for abortion. The purpose of the law is to protect people, sometimes from themselves.

See the statements in this supreme court docket - https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/19/19-1392/148153/20200720161158567_39927%20pdf%20Parker%20app.pdf

APPENDIX A – 375 Other Women Injured By Late Term Abortion

    ...

    Tracy – 16 weeks

    The nurse suggested I have an abortion and even did the necessary paperwork so it was paid for in full. I went to the hospital and was put out completely. It crushed me for many years and the medical community made it way too easy for me to make the wrong decision.

    ...

    Deidra – 20 Weeks

    I have had serious physical and emotional problems for thirty years. I had several miscarriages and one very difficult full term birth. I have been devastated because I did not have information about the overwhelming effects of abortion.

    ...

    B.J. – 22 Weeks

    I have been PROFOUNDLY affected, didn’t expect any effect, as I was so numb to life at the time, abused as a child, deeply depressed and fighting my way through by my own efforts. I have LONGED for those two children almost every day since the second abortion.

    ...

    L.H.G. – 16 Weeks

    It has affected me deeply and profoundly. I stand here today, nearly 31 years later, knowing beyond knowing, that I made the BIGGEST MISTAKE of my life. Yet, even as of this morning, I sat on my bed crying uncontrollably – my chest heaving with heavy sobs, the clenching spasms of my vacant, empty abdomen aching a near-torrent food of unrelenting sorrow for the one I let go. I know now, that I have missed out. And my husband missed out. And our other three adult children missed out. But more importantly, my child, who would now be a grown man if I had allowed him to live, would have, in all likelihood, been married with children of his own.

    ...

Many more can be found in the document and elsewhere.

This is why states have imposed laws regarding waiting periods and counseling for abortions. The position that there should be no laws on waiting periods and counseling, based on gut feeling and no coherent evidence at all, is contradictory to the evidence showing that women say that they were harmed. It doesn't matter exactly how many women were harmed, just like it doesn't matter how rare murder is to be illegal. If women are being harmed then the state has a responsibility to them, like it has a responsibility to women who are murdered. It is completely reasonable that a woman might be sensitive enough that an abortion would affect them emotionally and psychologically.

The position that it should be "up to the doctor" is also erroneous, since there are numerous examples where women claimed that they were psychologically harmed by the doctor's procedure. The abortion doctors did not require counseling and treated it as a business service.

Why shouldn't women be made aware that this procedure can cause long term trauma?

Why shouldn't these women be made aware of previous comments made by women who have undergone abortion, as to be more completely informed in their decision?

Why shouldn't these women be protected by the law as they expect to be?

Clearly, a reasonable audience would agree with the idea that young women should be completely informed. Any other position is repugnant. Therefore, there should be laws on this.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2022, 11:28:24 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #485 on: July 07, 2022, 12:22:24 PM »
tom am i correct that you think the left supports late-term abortions because we just viscerally enjoy killing? are you of the opinion that we support it because we want the baby to develop as much as possible before we kill it because we take pleasure from the idea of killing a child?

be real with me here.
I will be real, even though you didn't ask me.

I have no doubt you enjoy killing, especially if there is no chance for you to experience consequence.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

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Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #486 on: July 07, 2022, 12:25:22 PM »
Some people really think federal, state, and local governments should be involved in decisions between a doctor and patient.
Yeah, mostly democrats.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #487 on: July 07, 2022, 05:29:31 PM »
APPENDIX A – 375 Other Women Injured By Late Term Abortion

This data is from some group called "Operation Outcry". Operation Outcry is a ministry of The Justice Foundation that seeks to end the pain of abortion in America and around the world by mobilizing women and men hurt by abortion who share their true stories of the devastating effects of abortion.

Rather than anecdotal quotes from a religious organization, here's an actual study:

Psychological Responses of Women After First-Trimester Abortion

ResultsTwo years postabortion, 301 (72%) of 418 women were satisfied with their decision; 306 (69%) of 441 said they would have the abortion again; 315 (72%) of 440 reported more benefit than harm from their abortion; and 308 (80%) of 386 were not depressed. Six (1%) of 442 reported posttraumatic stress disorder. Depression decreased and self-esteem increased from preabortion to postabortion, but negative emotions increased and decision satisfaction decreased over time. Prepregnancy history of depression was a risk factor for depression, lower self-esteem, and more negative abortion-specific outcomes 2 years postabortion. Younger age and having more children preabortion also predicted more negative abortion evaluations.

ConclusionsMost women do not experience psychological problems or regret their abortion 2 years postabortion, but some do. Those who do tend to be women with a prior history of depression.


Later Abortions and Mental Health: Psychological Experiences of Women Having Later Abortions—A Critical Review of Research

Conclusion
Policies based on the notion that later abortions (because of fetal anomaly) harm women's mental health are unwarranted. Because research suggests that most women who have later abortions do so for reasons other than fetal anomaly, future investigations should examine women’s psychological experiences around later abortions.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #488 on: July 07, 2022, 07:53:11 PM »
That's pretty terrible, actually.

"306 (69%) of 441 said they would have the abortion again" means that 31% said that they would not have the abortion if they could choose again. This represents millions of women. The fact that they have almost a 1 in 3 chance of regretting their decision two years later is something young women should know, to provide them with complete information.

"(72%) of 440 reported more benefit than harm from their abortion" means that 28% reported more harm than benefit from their abortion.

"(80%) of 386 were not depressed" means that 20% were still depressed from their abortion two years later.

"Depression decreased and self-esteem increased from preabortion to postabortion, but negative emotions increased and decision satisfaction decreased over time." means that the longer the time passes the more and more women regret their abortion. This study was for a mere two years after abortion. Many of the testimonials in the previous document were of women looking back ten years later or more and regretting their abortion, wishing that they had not done it.

There may be some women who suspect that they might regret their abortion but go through with it anyway, and later find that their inner suspicion was correct. It is a disservice to expect that women are experts in things they are not familiar with. Therefore abolishing all laws and allowing "women to decide" is a bunk argument. Young women considering an abortion are simply inexperienced in this to be capable of making the best decision.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2022, 11:03:51 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline xasop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #489 on: July 07, 2022, 10:25:30 PM »
Meanwhile in Europe...

The European Parliament has asked for the right to "safe and legal abortion" be added to the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and stressed denying the procedure amounted to a form of violence against women and girls.

"Women’s rights are inalienable, and they cannot be removed or watered down," they wrote.

Amending the charter would require a revision of the EU treaties.

The non-binding resolution, which passes with 324 votes in favour and 155 against, was a symbolic gesture of support for the millions of American women who stand to lose access to abortion after the recent ruling of the US Supreme Court that overturned the landmark Roe v Wade case and put an end to 50 years of a constitutional right to abortion there.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #490 on: July 07, 2022, 11:03:48 PM »
That's pretty terrible, actually.

"306 (69%) of 441 said they would have the abortion again" means that 31% said that they would not have the abortion if they could choose again. This represents millions of women. The fact that they have almost a 1 in 3 chance of regretting their decision two years later is something young women should know, to provide them with complete information.

"(72%) of 440 reported more benefit than harm from their abortion" means that 28% reported more harm than benefit from their abortion.

"(80%) of 386 were not depressed" means that 20% were still depressed from their abortion two years later.

"Depression decreased and self-esteem increased from preabortion to postabortion, but negative emotions increased and decision satisfaction decreased over time." means that the longer the time passes the more and more women regret their abortion. This study was for a mere two years after abortion. Many of the testimonials in the previous document were of women looking back ten years later or more and regretting their abortion, wishing that they had not done it.

There may be some women who suspect that they might regret their abortion but go through with it anyway, and later find that their inner suspicion was correct. It is a disservice to expect that women are experts in things they are not familiar with. Therefore allowing "women to decide" is a bunk argument. Young women considering an abortion are simply inexperienced in this to be capable of making the best decision.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Let's ban everything that a tiny minority (it was already established your stats are inaccurate trash and I'm pretty sure you've tried this argument already earlier in this topic) might regret. Tattoos, piercings, sex, marriage, shopping in general (buyer's remorse), taking risks/not taking risks, etc. Might as well put everyone in a safe little box because people are incapable of making their own decisions.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #491 on: July 08, 2022, 12:13:50 AM »
That's pretty terrible, actually.

"(80%) of 386 were not depressed" means that 20% were still depressed from their abortion two years later.

ConclusionsMost women do not experience psychological problems or regret their abortion 2 years postabortion, but some do. Those who do tend to be women with a prior history of depression.

Looks like about the same results for relationships. We should probably try and tackle this alarming issue as well...


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #492 on: July 10, 2022, 05:11:46 AM »
Quote
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Let's ban everything that a tiny minority (it was already established your stats are inaccurate trash and I'm pretty sure you've tried this argument already earlier in this topic) might regret. Tattoos, piercings, sex, marriage, shopping in general (buyer's remorse), taking risks/not taking risks, etc. Might as well put everyone in a safe little box because people are incapable of making their own decisions.

33 out of 100 reporting long term regret, 28 out  and 100 reporting more harm than benefit, and 20 out of 100 reporting long term depression is not a tiny minority. Long term regret or depression isn't trivial. These women should have been fully informed before they made such a choice, and should have seen a psychiatrist for counseling over such a consequential life changing decision. Yet we see comments from the previous document that abortion was too easy to get and it caused long term emotional and psychological issues. They clearly must have thought that they killed their baby, and not just a clump of cells or 'tissue', to have such issues.

They should have been shown the data and the risks at length, seen the testimonials of women who suffered many years after the event, as well as testimonials of women who claim not to have suffered. They should have had the options explained to them - that there is adoption, welfare, child support - with examples of such. It should have been explained that they cannot be coerced by another person into getting an abortion, and asked a number of times by doctors and counselors along the way if they were sure.

Such state mandated counseling requirements would be a better situation than treating abortion as a business service.

Looks like about the same results for relationships. We should probably try and tackle this alarming issue as well...



And there are a whole plethora of laws and processes aimed at remediating the problems in relationships.

Alimony

Common Law Marriage

Cohabitation Laws

Child Support

Child Custody Laws

Paternity Laws

Age of Consent

Divorce Laws

Prenup Limitations

Family Court

Restraining Orders

Orders of Protection

Domestic Abuse Laws

Etc.

Looks like your example thoroughly debunks the notion that there should be no or few laws in relation to abortion.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 01:01:41 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #493 on: July 10, 2022, 06:22:01 AM »
Quote
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Let's ban everything that a tiny minority (it was already established your stats are inaccurate trash and I'm pretty sure you've tried this argument already earlier in this topic) might regret. Tattoos, piercings, sex, marriage, shopping in general (buyer's remorse), taking risks/not taking risks, etc. Might as well put everyone in a safe little box because people are incapable of making their own decisions.

33 out of 100 reporting long term regret, 28 out  and 100 reporting more harm than benefit, and 20 out of 100 reporting long term depression is not a tiny minority. Long term regret or depression isn't trivial. These women should have been fully informed before they made such a choice, and should have seen a psychiatrist for counseling over such a consequential life changing decision. Yet we see comments from the previous document that abortion was too easy to get and it caused long term emotional and psychological issues. They clearly must have thought that they killed their baby, and not just a clump of cells or 'tissue', to have such issues.

They should have been shown the data and the risks at length, seen the testimonials of women who suffered many years after the event, as well as testimonials of women who claim not to have suffered, should have had the options explained to them - that there is adoption, welfare, child support. It should have explained that they cannot be coerced by another person into getting an abortion, and asked a number of times by doctors and counselors along the way if they were sure.

Such state mandated counseling requirements would be a better situation than treating abortion as a business service.

Looks like about the same results for relationships. We should probably try and tackle this alarming issue as well...



And there are a whole plethora of laws and processes aimed at remediating the problems in relationships.

Alimony

Common Law Marriage

Cohabitation Laws

Child Support

Child Custody Laws

Paternity Laws

Age of Consent

Divorce Laws

Prenup Limitations

Family Court

Restraining Orders

Orders of Protection

Domestic Abuse Laws

Etc.

Looks like your example thoroughly debunks the notion that there should be no or few laws in relation to abortion.

And there are a whole plethora of laws and processes aimed at regulating abortions:

Physician and Hospital Requirements: 33 states require an abortion to be performed by a licensed physician. 19 states require an abortion to be performed in a hospital after a specified point in the pregnancy, and 17 states require the involvement of a second physician after a specified point.

Gestational Limits: 43 states prohibit abortions after a specified point in pregnancy, with some exceptions provided. The allowable circumstances are generally when an abortion is necessary to protect the patient's life or health.
“Partial-Birth” Abortion: 21 states have laws in effect that prohibit “partial-birth” abortion. 3 of these laws apply only to postviability abortions.

Public Funding: 16 states use their own funds to pay for all or most medically necessary abortions for Medicaid enrollees in the state. 33 states and the District of Columbia prohibit the use of state funds except in those cases when federal funds are available: where the patient's life is in danger or the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest. In defiance of federal requirements, South Dakota limits funding to cases of life endangerment only.

Coverage by Private Insurance: 12 states restrict coverage of abortion in private insurance plans, most often limiting coverage only to when the patient's life would be endangered if the pregnancy were carried to term. Most states allow the purchase of additional abortion coverage at an additional cost.

Refusal: 45 states allow individual health care providers to refuse to participate in an abortion. 42 states allow institutions to refuse to perform abortions, 16 of which limit refusal to private or religious institutions.

State-Mandated Counseling: 18 states mandate that individuals be given counseling before an abortion that includes information on at least one of the following: the purported link between abortion and breast cancer (5 states), the ability of a fetus to feel pain (13 states) or long-term mental health consequences for the patient (8 states).

Waiting Periods: 25 states require a person seeking an abortion to wait a specified period of time, usually 24 hours, between when they receive counseling and the procedure is performed. 12 of these states have laws that effectively require the patient make two separate trips to the clinic to obtain the procedure.

Parental Involvement: 37 states require some type of parental involvement in a minor’s decision to have an abortion. 27 states require one or both parents to consent to the procedure, while 10 require that one or both parents be notified.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #494 on: July 10, 2022, 06:27:26 AM »
This is kinda funny. I guess 'personhood' doesn't apply to a fetus just trying to ease up their commute:

Pregnant woman given HOV ticket argues fetus is passenger, post-Roe

Brandy Bottone was recently driving down Central Expressway in Dallas when she was stopped by a sheriff’s deputy at an HOV checkpoint to see whether there were at least two occupants per vehicle as mandated. When the sheriff looked around her car last month, she recounted to The Washington Post that he asked, “Is it just you or is someone else riding with you?”

“I said, ‘Oh, there’s two of us,’” Bottone said. “And he said, ‘Where?’”

Bottone, who was 34 weeks pregnant at the time, pointed to her stomach. Even though she said her “baby girl is right here,” Bottone said one of the deputies she encountered on June 29 told her it had to be “two bodies outside of the body.” While the state’s penal code recognizes a fetus as a person, the Texas Transportation Code does not.


From the Texas Transpo code (TRANSP § 452.0613):

(2) operating a vehicle in or entering a high occupancy vehicle lane operated, managed, or maintained by an authority with fewer than the required number of occupants. (My bold)

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #495 on: July 11, 2022, 12:36:29 AM »
Quote from: stack
And there are a whole plethora of laws and processes aimed at regulating abortions

Correct, but we are assessing the position that abortion should be a matter between a woman and her doctor and the state should not be involved. If abortion is harmful to women then the state does have a responsibility to step in.

What you posted shows that multiple states have acknowledged that abortion does need to be regulated.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #496 on: July 11, 2022, 12:47:44 AM »
Quote from: stack
And there are a whole plethora of laws and processes aimed at regulating abortions

Correct, but we are assessing the position that abortion should be a matter between a woman and her doctor and the state should not be involved. If abortion is harmful to women then the state does have a responsibility to step in.

What you posted shows that multiple states have acknowledged that abortion does need to be regulated.
Regulated?  Sure, within reason.  Should the state have the right to forbid abortion with no exception?  No.  If a doctor says that it's medically necessary to save the mother's life, then what right does the state have to sentence the mother to death?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #497 on: July 11, 2022, 12:48:38 AM »
Quote from: stack
And there are a whole plethora of laws and processes aimed at regulating abortions

Correct, but we are assessing the position that abortion should be a matter between a woman and her doctor and the state should not be involved. If abortion is harmful to women then the state does have a responsibility to step in.

What you posted shows that multiple states have acknowledged that abortion does need to be regulated.
Honestly, the state should always step in to make sure everyone makes the best decision possible in every situation. No one knows better than the state and women are too delicate to have regrets.

I posted this link before, so if you keep trolling can you at least pick a new angle? This is beneath you; lazier than usual.
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/01/416421/five-years-after-abortion-nearly-all-women-say-it-was-right-decision-study

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Offline markjo

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #498 on: July 11, 2022, 12:50:37 AM »
Not to mention the fact that it's still possible to have regrets for making the right decision.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #499 on: July 11, 2022, 07:59:29 AM »
Quote
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Let's ban everything that a tiny minority (it was already established your stats are inaccurate trash and I'm pretty sure you've tried this argument already earlier in this topic) might regret. Tattoos, piercings, sex, marriage, shopping in general (buyer's remorse), taking risks/not taking risks, etc. Might as well put everyone in a safe little box because people are incapable of making their own decisions.

33 out of 100 reporting long term regret, 28 out  and 100 reporting more harm than benefit, and 20 out of 100 reporting long term depression is not a tiny minority. Long term regret or depression isn't trivial. These women should have been fully informed before they made such a choice, and should have seen a psychiatrist for counseling over such a consequential life changing decision. Yet we see comments from the previous document that abortion was too easy to get and it caused long term emotional and psychological issues. They clearly must have thought that they killed their baby, and not just a clump of cells or 'tissue', to have such issues.

They should have been shown the data and the risks at length, seen the testimonials of women who suffered many years after the event, as well as testimonials of women who claim not to have suffered. They should have had the options explained to them - that there is adoption, welfare, child support - with examples of such. It should have been explained that they cannot be coerced by another person into getting an abortion, and asked a number of times by doctors and counselors along the way if they were sure.

Such state mandated counseling requirements would be a better situation than treating abortion as a business service.

How do you know that they weren't shown data, testimonials, received some sort of counseling prior to the procedure? A bunch of States mandate exactly that:

State-Mandated Counseling: 18 states mandate that individuals be given counseling before an abortion that includes information on at least one of the following: the purported link between abortion and breast cancer (5 states), the ability of a fetus to feel pain (13 states) or long-term mental health consequences for the patient (8 states).

Waiting Periods: 25 states require a person seeking an abortion to wait a specified period of time, usually 24 hours, between when they receive counseling and the procedure is performed. 12 of these states have laws that effectively require the patient make two separate trips to the clinic to obtain the procedure.