[Mock]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

The evidence for TomInAustin's 1st claim is a logical argument. If GPS predicted distances are not accurate, then how can it be that GPS-based navigational systems work for millions of people on a daily basis? Are you asserting that they don't work? Or that they do work, but are somehow still not accurate? I really don't know what you're getting at with this. His first claim is definitely valid.

Actually, his second claim has nothing to do with what you are asking us to prove. It is true that aircraft flight times are recorded daily. You can check them out online - just google it. We can assume they are true because, even disregarding the fact that here, too, millions of people experience those flight times daily, how could airlines not know how long their flights take? They have schedules, and if the times were actually inaccurate, there would be delays on literally every flight. Are you going to assert that this is the case? Or are you claiming that even if airlines don't know their own flight times, they somehow still manage to plan everything and be on time in most cases? His second claim, too, is absolutely correct.

And then there's the thing with the cruise speeds. See, you've had 3DGeek, who happens to be a professional and an expert on the topic, explain to you exactly how it is measured and why it is measured as it is in the other thread. I'm sure you remember it - unless you decided to ignore it and walk away from the thread as soon as you started losing, just like you did on my last thread about the magnetic field - TWICE, I might say.

As a matter of fact, 3DGeek also stated why even if cruise speeds are extremely far off, it doesn't matter at all. I'm just going to quote him:

So his ONLY remaining straw to clutch at - his lifeline - is that the speeds that are claimed for these aircraft are wildly incorrect.

BUT - the coup-de-grace is this:  If the speed for the 747 is wildly different than the manufacturers (pilots, control towers, airlines) claim - then IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!   If all of the 747's are 50% faster - then all of the distances we have are incorrect by the same ratio.   AND THAT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THE INTERNAL ANGLES OF THE QUADRILATERALS DON'T ADD UP.

Which brings us to the conclusion that the first claim ("1. GPS is a proven technology that in some cases,  is accurate to centimeters and at worst 10 to 15 meters") is true, the second claim ("2. Flight times between destinations are recorded daily [and are accurate enough]") is also true, and the third claim ("3. Aircraft cruise speeds are known and are filed with flight plans") doesn't even need to be true in order for TomInAustin's question being a valid one. See, there's no point in having a designated week for discussing a specific topic if all you're going to do is deny stuff a schoolboy can prove within ten minutes.

Now, would you please be kind enough as to answer the question this whole thread is about, instead of dodging it like a coward who has no arguments left except for "boo hoo we don't know the distance from NY to Paris, and what's more, you'll NEVER EVER EVER be able to find out heheh!!!!!"

Here is my first question.  Using the following airline data, how could a flat map possibly allow these numbers?

Origin         Dest                   Miles
Sydney         Santiago           7125
Santiago         Johannesburg   5724
Johannesburg  Sydney      6909

[TomInAustin]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

The evidence for TomInAustin's 1st claim is a logical argument. If GPS predicted distances are not accurate, then how can it be that GPS-based navigational systems work for millions of people on a daily basis? Are you asserting that they don't work? Or that they do work, but are somehow still not accurate? I really don't know what you're getting at with this. His first claim is definitely valid.

Actually, his second claim has nothing to do with what you are asking us to prove. It is true that aircraft flight times are recorded daily. You can check them out online - just google it. We can assume they are true because, even disregarding the fact that here, too, millions of people experience those flight times daily, how could airlines not know how long their flights take? They have schedules, and if the times were actually inaccurate, there would be delays on literally every flight. Are you going to assert that this is the case? Or are you claiming that even if airlines don't know their own flight times, they somehow still manage to plan everything and be on time in most cases? His second claim, too, is absolutely correct.

And then there's the thing with the cruise speeds. See, you've had 3DGeek, who happens to be a professional and an expert on the topic, explain to you exactly how it is measured and why it is measured as it is in the other thread. I'm sure you remember it - unless you decided to ignore it and walk away from the thread as soon as you started losing, just like you did on my last thread about the magnetic field - TWICE, I might say.

As a matter of fact, 3DGeek also stated why even if cruise speeds are extremely far off, it doesn't matter at all. I'm just going to quote him:

So his ONLY remaining straw to clutch at - his lifeline - is that the speeds that are claimed for these aircraft are wildly incorrect.

BUT - the coup-de-grace is this:  If the speed for the 747 is wildly different than the manufacturers (pilots, control towers, airlines) claim - then IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!   If all of the 747's are 50% faster - then all of the distances we have are incorrect by the same ratio.   AND THAT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THE INTERNAL ANGLES OF THE QUADRILATERALS DON'T ADD UP.

Which brings us to the conclusion that the first claim ("1. GPS is a proven technology that in some cases,  is accurate to centimeters and at worst 10 to 15 meters") is true, the second claim ("2. Flight times between destinations are recorded daily [and are accurate enough]") is also true, and the third claim ("3. Aircraft cruise speeds are known and are filed with flight plans") doesn't even need to be true in order for TomInAustin's question being a valid one. See, there's no point in having a designated week for discussing a specific topic if all you're going to do is deny stuff a schoolboy can prove within ten minutes.

Now, would you please be kind enough as to answer the question this whole thread is about, instead of dodging it like a coward who has no arguments left except for "boo hoo we don't know the distance from NY to Paris, and what's more, you'll NEVER EVER EVER be able to find out heheh!!!!!"

Here is my first question.  Using the following airline data, how could a flat map possibly allow these numbers?

Origin         Dest                   Miles
Sydney         Santiago           7125
Santiago         Johannesburg   5724
Johannesburg  Sydney      6909

Very well stated. 

I can assure you he thinks his ace in the hole is an article about GPS distances being off for runners.  He gave it away when he mentioned a wheel as the measuring device.  It is one of the first google hits on GPS distance accuracy.   

Distances, particularly in the southern hemisphere, seem to be kryptonite for all flat earthers.  If a flat map was possible it could be done on graph paper by a high school geometry student using flight data to fill in major cities.  For laughs, I tried just that using routes between Austrailia, New Zealand, Africa, and South America.   Obviously, it's not possible.  This completely explains why they are so afraid of this debate.








 

[StinkyOne]

I think it is very telling that this was the very first debate topic and there has been zero debate. Tom cries about the measurement methods being used, offers nothing of value, and then disappears. (Which seems to be a pattern)

[TomInAustin]

Someone correct me if my logic is bad here but…

Assuming a flat map.  If I take 3 points, location unknown but I know the distances.

Dallas to Austin 149 miles
Austin To Houston   158 Miles
Houston To Dallas 224 miles

Figure 1

I draw a circle of with a radius of 149 with Dallas being the center point.   Circle A
I pick a random point (Austin) on that circle and draw another circle with a radius of 158. Circle B
I draw a circle from point Dallas with a radius of 224.    Circle C
The intersection of Circle A and C should be point Houston, right?

If this is true it should work with any 3 points on a flat map.

[3DGeek]

Dallas to Austin 149 miles

Speaking as a fellow Austinite - I have to say that on i35 it *seems* a lot longer!  :-)

(That's a joke FE'ers...it really is that far...I used to drive it twice a week).

  -- 3dGeekInAustin.

[TomInAustin]

Dallas to Austin 149 miles

Speaking as a fellow Austinite - I have to say that on i35 it *seems* a lot longer!  :-)

(That's a joke FE'ers...it really is that far...I used to drive it twice a week).

  -- 3dGeekInAustin.

What, don't you like perpetual construction through Salado and Temple?   I don't know why they didn't say "We are going to need 5 lanes all the way at some point, let's just build them now".


On the topic of this post.  I am expanding out my triangles to get a flat map made.  More later

[TomInAustin]

As you can see the shape of the Austin, Dallas and Houston triangle is pretty close to the round map over such a short distance.

Expanding out to New York, Paris and Mexico City we begin to see distortion.

New York   Paris   3677   A
Paris   Mexico City   5728   B
Mexico City   New York   2080   C


Next stop will be adding some southern hemisphere locations.  To make it work there must be an intersection of circles b and c.   

Tom approved this methodology when he agreed that radar is accurate.  We know aircraft speeds are set using radar.  So we can trust the distances in the flight distance database.


The purpose of this exercise is to set locations in 2d space and come up with a rough draft of a flat map.  Pretty simple. At this point, compass headings are ignored.

[TomInAustin]

One more. 

Rio   Moscow   7103   A
Moscow   Sydney   8960   B
Sydney   Rio   8520   C


Does this look about right?

[pedant]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

You are incorrect.  It is up to you to prove GPS is not accurate, that Boeing does not know how fast the planes they make fly, and that Lat Lon is not an accurate measurement of the earth.

Actually, both of you have a burden of proof.  You claim those three statements are true, and Tom claims they are false.  The only way to dodge the burden is to remain unconvinced of either conclusion, i.e., you have to not believe the statements are true and not believe they are false.  (Obviously, it would make more sense that Boeing knows the specs of their planes, and the fact that Tom won't answer is evidence that he knows he's being overly pedantic.  I should know, I'm pedantic about nearly everything.)

That said, I have hard time understanding why the FakeEarthers (FE proponents) are so worried about the city distances in the OP.  They are so defensive and ready to stick with their flat Earth presupposition than none even bothered to produce a simple flat map showing those distances.  Your circle method seems like the most straightforward way.

Here's a link to an interactive model.

[TomInAustin]

Next stop... 

Using the last example, I added a new point. Johannesburg.  This is placed a the intersection of D and E.

Rio   Moscow   7103   A
Moscow   Sydney   8960   B
Sydney   Rio   8520   C
Rio    Johannesburg   4447   D
Moscow   Johannesburg   5625   E


The model starts showing the errors here. It shows Johannesburg to Sydney at 4366 miles where the true distance is 6904.

[3DGeek]

Dallas to Austin 149 miles

Speaking as a fellow Austinite - I have to say that on i35 it *seems* a lot longer!  :-)

(That's a joke FE'ers...it really is that far...I used to drive it twice a week).

  -- 3dGeekInAustin.

What, don't you like perpetual construction through Salado and Temple?   I don't know why they didn't say "We are going to need 5 lanes all the way at some point, let's just build them now".

Hmmm - perhaps Salado/Temple is one of those places where an extra bit of FE map had to be stuck into to make compasses work?  There has to be some reason there's always construction work there!   Have you seen any NASA trucks parked near there?

[TomInAustin]

Dallas to Austin 149 miles

Speaking as a fellow Austinite - I have to say that on i35 it *seems* a lot longer!  :-)

(That's a joke FE'ers...it really is that far...I used to drive it twice a week).

  -- 3dGeekInAustin.

What, don't you like perpetual construction through Salado and Temple?   I don't know why they didn't say "We are going to need 5 lanes all the way at some point, let's just build them now".

Hmmm - perhaps Salado/Temple is one of those places where an extra bit of FE map had to be stuck into to make compasses work?  There has to be some reason there's always construction work there!   Have you seen any NASA trucks parked near there?

There were a bunch of Walmart trucks but I bet they were holograms to hide the real ones with cloaking devices.

[franklinho]

Agreed. We pretty much have one guy here that is merely focusing on mistakes in one's grammar, or picks out one word mistakes. Also, where is the scientific method backing up all the pretty claims made by the Flat Earth Society? Here's proof GPS works. (down below) Ensure you read the whole thing. Next. Scott Kelley, who went into space, has proved that he came home 25 milliseconds younger than his twin brother. ALong with this evidence, the scientific community has largely accepted the fact that space-time exists, and matter creates the effect of gravity, meaning matter coalesces into spheres, naturally, and the Earth cannot be flat. Oh, and we have the Davis relativity model. Where are the experiments at CERN that prove this exists? Where is the scientific community with millions of members, who have agreed upon the fact that the Earth is "flat"?

The Global Positioning System (GPS) is a network of about 30 satellites orbiting the Earth at an altitude of 20,000 km. The system was originally developed by the US government for military navigation but now anyone with a GPS device, be it a SatNav, mobile phone or handheld GPS unit, can receive the radio signals that the satellites broadcast.

Wherever you are on the planet, at least four GPS satellites are ‘visible’ at any time. Each one transmits information about its position and the current time at regular intervals. These signals, travelling at the speed of light, are intercepted by your GPS receiver, which calculates how far away each satellite is based on how long it took for the messages to arrive.

Once it has information on how far away at least three satellites are, your GPS receiver can pinpoint your location using a process called trilateration.

Trilateration


Imagine you are standing somewhere on Earth with three satellites in the sky above you. If you know how far away you are from satellite A, then you know you must be located somewhere on the red circle. If you do the same for satellites B and C, you can work out your location by seeing where the three circles intersect. This is just what your GPS receiver does, although it uses overlapping spheres rather than circles.

The more satellites there are above the horizon the more accurately your GPS unit can determine where you are.

GPS and Relativity


GPS satellites have atomic clocks on board to keep accurate time. General and Special Relativity however predict that differences will appear between these clocks and an identical clock on Earth.

General Relativity predicts that time will appear to run slower under stronger gravitational pull – the clocks on board the satellites will therefore seem to run faster than a clock on Earth.

Furthermore, Special Relativity predicts that because the satellites’ clocks are moving relative to a clock on Earth, they will appear to run slower.

The whole GPS network has to make allowances for these effects –  proof that Relativity has a real impact.

[Serious_Lee]

Hey FE'ers

Can anyone provide me with the distance between the following cities, according to the proposed FE map:

1. Johannesburg to Perth
2. Johannesburg to Frankfurt

Thank you and much appreciated!!!

[inquisitive]

Hey FE'ers

Can anyone provide me with the distance between the following cities, according to the proposed FE map:

1. Johannesburg to Perth
2. Johannesburg to Frankfurt

Thank you and much appreciated!!!

There is only one distance between 2 places.

[Jura-Glenlivet]

Well we have our first bout in the “Tom concentrates” series, and as a completely unbiased observer the contest goes to the sanity crew (Mock, 3D, TA, Pongy, Franky and the inquisitive Nut-muncher) by a knock out.

Tom was flabby and woefully unprepared, relying on his usual rope-a-dope tactics of, of “God’s teeth! If it’s not measured by tape measure and written down by quill in ink, Damn it, I won’t except it man”. But it was clear he was flagging early in the first round. The Ref’ stepped in to shield him from the blows and to call foul on some clearly legal punches, but by the time the first bell went the old fella had had enough.

The second round, the crew were fired up and looking lean, but Tom stayed on the ropes and never attempted to defend, hoping for a chink that never came or the ref’ to award it to him on a technicality, which was a shame.

If these bouts are to continue, Tom will have to up both his training and his support staff, the FE tactic of insisting on scrupulously verifiable evidence from REer’s, but only putting forward vague and shifting speculation is disingenuous and embarrassingly predictable.

To the crew, sterling work. You should put some of it in the RE repository (  http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5225.0), and I am not suggesting you stop here, but take a breather, stretch, electrolytes and stuff

[CriticalThinker]

Hey FE'ers

Can anyone provide me with the distance between the following cities, according to the proposed FE map:

1. Johannesburg to Perth
2. Johannesburg to Frankfurt

Thank you and much appreciated!!!

This will be difficult to get a consensus on from this forum.  According to other threads that I've read through Tom states that no detailed map of the flat earth including distances exists, Junker claims that a map does exist but doesn't specifically state if it has a distance scale.

Thank you,

CriticalThikner

[Jura-Glenlivet]

On a serious note: This was all a bit one-sided, Tom (bless his bones), was out gunned and even if he had the answers, the amount of points he had to respond to would have been prohibitive, not only that but one bad point by a passing loon from either camp would derail the argument.

Proposal; for the next discussion Tom should only have one person to answer to (3Dgeek is in the zone at present I forward his name), other interested parties would PM their champion if they feel something should be added or to discuss a point, Junker as always would be the Referee for points of order.

This should make the debates much simpler, coherent and easier to follow.

I of course retain the right to call the result, being totally un-biased, so make sure it’s not boring

[juner]

Hey FE'ers

Can anyone provide me with the distance between the following cities, according to the proposed FE map:

1. Johannesburg to Perth
2. Johannesburg to Frankfurt

Thank you and much appreciated!!!

Merged this with another recent thread on the exact same topic.

[Curious Squirrel]

On a serious note: This was all a bit one-sided, Tom (bless his bones), was out gunned and even if he had the answers, the amount of points he had to respond to would have been prohibitive, not only that but one bad point by a passing loon from either camp would derail the argument.

Proposal; for the next discussion Tom should only have one person to answer to (3Dgeek is in the zone at present I forward his name), other interested parties would PM their champion if they feel something should be added or to discuss a point, Junker as always would be the Referee for points of order.

This should make the debates much simpler, coherent and easier to follow.

I of course retain the right to call the result, being totally un-biased, so make sure it’s not boring

This was largely what I was attempting to call for in the poll thread. Debates are a structured thing (or they can be) and we should treat it as such for these topics. There are plenty of templates out there to use for scoring and structure. I really think, if we can get together another one of these for another poll result as was originally suggested, we should pick one and adhere to it. If nothing else it should help provide structure and prevent people from getting too off track (from what I recall most scoring rubrics deduct points for digressions).