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Messages - JHelzer

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Flat Earth Theory / Re: Will Inspiration4 convince Flat Earth believers?
« on: October 01, 2021, 05:56:39 PM »
Netflix 5th episode is out. Fantastic images of the crew and the earth. These are people who went to space and looked out the window with their own eyes.  These 4 people can tell you the shape of the earth. They circled the earth over 45 times and got a good view of it over a 3 day period. Space tourism is a real thing now. It has come down from hundreds of millions to millions in the past 15 years.  It will cost thousands instead of millions in a few more years.

I've heard of flat-earth efforts to raise funds to charter a ship to sail to the Antarctic ice wall, but this would be a far better journey. Send a couple of flat-earthers up on a SpaceX dragon with the expectation that they will debunk the fraud. Then see what they say after splashdown.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I have some questions for FE
« on: September 23, 2021, 03:38:45 PM »

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Will Inspiration4 convince Flat Earth believers?
« on: September 22, 2021, 04:13:24 PM »
... and films the horizon in 'portrait'.

hahaha. Portrait video is proof that this must be real. No studio would have allowed that. I love it.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Will Inspiration4 convince Flat Earth believers?
« on: September 22, 2021, 05:57:19 AM »
Ok. Here we go. Jared Issacman provided some real video taken with an iPhone in the cupola.  With the camera in the center of the cupola ring you can see the straight edges of the window frame (at the very end) and the round edges of the Earth. You can also see the Earth curving away around the edges of the globe.

There you have it my flat earth friends. Guy buys flight to space, guy looks out window, guy sees globe.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Will Inspiration4 convince Flat Earth believers?
« on: September 21, 2021, 03:29:35 PM »
I take it all back. You can totally see the wires on this...

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Will Inspiration4 convince Flat Earth believers?
« on: September 17, 2021, 04:31:51 PM »
30 hours of silence from the Inspiration4 crew after the launch. Only a few pictures of the crew in the dragon capsule. No non-fisheye-lens images of earth. They aren't giving me what I'd hoped for to have a conversation in this forum on this topic. Still waiting...

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Will Inspiration4 convince Flat Earth believers?
« on: September 14, 2021, 02:52:26 PM »
What you are missing is that the horizon never curves. And that this has nothing to do with whether it is flat or spherical.

The horizon is always a flat and horizontal line that surrounds you.  As you pull away, that circle expands to the limits of your vision.  If the earth were spherical, you would expect at some altitude (MUCH higher than the "commercial space flights" are going) that the "hump"/"shoulder" of the world ought to jut out, apparently from the horizon line.  The completely flat and horizontal horizon is always there, the curve of the earth appears to jut out of it (IF the world is spherical, that is)

Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks Jack. Your point reminds me that there is a distinction between seeing the curvature of the Earth (away from us) and seeing the curvature of the horizon. While I agree with you that windows and lenses can disrupt the perception of horizon curvature from airplane altitudes (10km), I must disagree about the Branson/Bezos flights (100km) and also the Inspiration4 flight (500km).  Everything you say about raising in altitude is true when I climb a mountain or fly in a plane. I agree with you because I have seen this myself. However, from the video footage I've seen, when we pass 100km the curvature of the horizon becomes so pronounced that neither lens distortion nor placebo bias can account for it. There is a point where we have to say, Ok. That curvature is more than what lens distortion can cause.  I am proposing that at 500km, the 4 crew members will pass that point and see it for themselves.

Add to that, they will orbit the earth every 90 minutes and will witness not only the curvature of the horizon, but the curvature of the Earth away from them. This expectation of what they will see comes from my bias to believe what I have seen in previous rocket launches through cameras.  The difference here is that we will have 4 new witnesses who see it with their eyes. They will give their observations when they return, and I, for one, will take their witness as valid first person data.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Will Inspiration4 convince Flat Earth believers?
« on: September 10, 2021, 08:48:10 PM »
The rocket going up will not be faked. People standing up and down the coast will see it go with their own eyes. The returns are also not faked, unauthorized boaters have watched the dragon capsules return and driven their boats right up to one of them. I suppose these 4 people participating in Inspiration4 could have been hired to act out the part of an amazing space mission.  Just calling people actors is fine I guess. I can also claim that the Flat Earth believers on this site are actors.

Still your answer is valid. Inspiration4 images and personal testimony will not change your perspective.

Flat Earth Theory / Will Inspiration4 convince Flat Earth believers?
« on: September 10, 2021, 02:38:00 PM »
On September 15th, the Inspiration4 space flight is scheduled to take 4 civilians to space on board a SpaceX Dragon capsule. These civilians will see Earth from space, take pictures and give first hand accounts of what they see. If they report that they see a globe, will you believe their simple, first hand, observations? Will you acknowledge this large science experiment as proof one way or the other?  One of the Flat Earth values is to just look and believe what your eyes are telling you; to believe the most obvious, simplest truth. Will that apply to the crew of Inspiration4? Will you believe their first hand report or dismiss it? 

How can a FE explain one observe seeing the sun rising in the east while another somewhere else on the planet sees it setting in the west at the same time?  There is only one sun, it can be doing both.

The leading edge of the spotlight sun looks like the rising sun and the trailing edge of the spotlight sun looks like the setting sun. There is only one sun but there is a leading and trailing edge in two distant locations.  Honestly, this concept of one sun seen differently in different locations is the same in both round and flat earth theory.  Shouldn't be hard to understand.

On the FE map, the dimensions of the southern hemisphere land masses are ...

There is no accurate FE map. The land masses and oceans shown on FE concept maps are known to be distorted derivations of a projected globe map.

As to your question about the sun speeding up and slowing down over the ocean and land. I am certain the answer is: no, it doesn't.

Flat Earth Community / Thousand mile cloud shadows
« on: July 28, 2021, 06:55:49 PM »
This tweet shows an image of clouds casting thousand mile shadows seen from above.

I have no persuasive argument here. I'm just sharing a beautiful image with the community. I thought of ya'll when I saw it.

I don't know the correct answer for this. I am just be happy to help with improving the wiki.  I'm not looking to suggest a perfect definitive answer.  I will be very proud if even a small piece of my suggestion is implemented.

You pointed out a small date and time where you think the stars will be visible simultaneously.

You then assume that you are correct that those stars can be seen simultaneously.

You then ask us to come up with a different explanation because you are going to go ahead and assume that your assumption is correct.

Do you see a flaw there?

Using Tom's answer as a starting place the wiki answer could be changed as follows:
Q. How can two people on opposite sides of the earth in Australia and South America both see the same South Pole Stars simultaneously?
A. The stars in the night sky are only visible simultaneously in these locations during a few months of the year.  In those conditions it is questioned whether it is the case that the observers actually see the same stars simultaneously.

Flat Earth Community / Re: Question about the stars.
« on: January 14, 2021, 03:43:09 PM »
I think you're all being somewhat sidetracked...

there is no possible amount of distortion (or indeed 'perspective effects') that can explain...

Its my understanding that people in northern latitudes see a different set of stars then people in the south.

Yes.  Some stars and constellations (Ursa Minor) are visible only in northern locations, some stars and constellations (Southern Cross) are visible only in southern locations, and some stars and constellations (Orion) are visible to both northern and southern locations.

Circumpolar constellations like Ursa Minor and Southern Cross can be seen year round, while equatorial constellations like Orion are seasonal.

With all of this information about viewing stars so well established, why does the wiki say things like "It is questioned whether it is the case" and "it may be that they see stars alternately"? It is known that "it is the case" and it is known that there are times and seasons that stars are seen simultaneously.

I enjoy Flat Earth Theory, and I enjoy good arguments about it, but this particular entry in the wiki, needs to be revised.  It is not a good flat earth explanation.

Many thanks for the additional support for the need to change the answer in the wiki. The underlined wording below is what I am suggesting needs to be changed.

A. Since those areas are many hours apart from each other, when it is night or dusk for one area it is likely day or dawn for the other. It is questioned whether it is the case that those observers see the same stars simultaneously. Due to the time difference it may be that they see the stars alternately.

Does the Flat Earth Community have any suggestions for a better answer?  Perhaps something about the bipolar FE model would be a better direction.

Flat Earth Community / Re: Question about the stars.
« on: January 12, 2021, 01:35:51 PM »
By volume, dry air contains 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.04% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases.[8] Air also contains a variable amount of water vapor, on average around 1% at sea level, and 0.4% over the entire atmosphere.

A cup with 0.4% water in it is not “full” of water.

Flat Earth Community / Re: Question about the stars.
« on: January 11, 2021, 02:05:47 PM »
It just so happens the air above our heads is full of water and sand.

No. The air above us is full of nitrogen atoms. It has trace amounts of dust and water.  The air around us, in the lower atmolayer has more dust and water vapor, but when it is “full” of those (storms), we can’t see through it.

I do see the flaw you are talking about.  I did not mean to discuss the assumption that the same stars can be seen.  I specifically want to talk about the answer which states that there may not be the opportunity of darkness to view the stars simultaneously.  I don't like that part of the answer because it is known that there are times when the sky is sufficiently dark to see stars at the locations mentioned in the wiki answer.

Here is the data I used.  Hopefully there are no errors in my math.

LocationDateNautical TwilightUTC Conversion
Cape Town, South AfricaJune 14, 20206:42pm - 6:50am20:42 - 08:50
Melbourne, AustraliaJune 14, 20206:09pm - 6:31am05:09 - 17:31

This data demonstrates that in June from UTC 05:09 to 08:50 (3 hr 41 min) there is darkness in both locations sufficient to see stars.

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