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Offline markjo

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Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2018, 01:29:27 PM »
So you are just completely incapable of actually acknowledging a word I say.
Math tells you the what. My problem is with the how. You don't get to move the goalposts to just completely ignore my statements.
Math is the language of science.  If you don't have the math, then you don't have a theory.  Newton and Einstein had plenty of math to support their theories.  Where's your math?

Newton provided the math, not the mechanism. His math is attributable to any theory of gravity.
Yes Tom, we all know that  Newton didn't provide a mechanism.  However, his math doesn't work under relativistic conditions, like the precession of Mercury's orbit, which is why Einstein developed much more sophisticated math for GR.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Offline rgr331

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Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2018, 03:57:02 AM »
Here is how I would prove FET.

I would measure the shadow of identical objects at exactly 12:00 noon in two locations at least 100 miles apart along the (so called) prime meridian.

Since the sun is in a given point in the sky, the size of the shadow of 1 object, the height of the identical objects, and the distance between the objects can be used to calculate the size of the shadow of the 2nd object.

Since the earth is flat, the calculation of the 2nd shadow will match the measurement of the 2nd shadow.

Offline rgr331

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Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2018, 03:58:41 AM »
Here is how I would prove FET.

I would measure the shadow of identical objects at exactly 12:00 noon in two locations at least 100 miles apart along the (so called) prime meridian.

Since the sun is in a given point in the sky, the size of the shadow of 1 object, the height of the identical objects, and the distance between the objects can be used to calculate the size of the shadow of the 2nd object.

Since the earth is flat, the calculation of the 2nd shadow will match the measurement of the 2nd shadow.

Update: the measurement of 2nd shadow was smaller than the calculation. Hmm......

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Offline AATW

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Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2018, 09:29:52 AM »
The Wiki covers that. You are assuming a distant sun. If the sun is smaller and close then you'd get the same result on a flat earth:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun

Obviously if the sun were closer you'd also be able to show that by taking measurements of the angle of it from different locations and triangulating.
The angle would be measurably different if the sun is as close as FE supposes. I've seen no evidence that any FE person has done this
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

BillO

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2018, 02:13:00 AM »
FE doesn't provide either the math or the mechanism for many of its ideas of course...
I guess I'm risking getting a beating here from Pete or junker, but I would say that FE provides neither the math or the mechanism for any of it's ideas.  You can verify this by going through the wiki.  Anytime 'math' is given it is not scientifically attributable to the alleged phenomenon in question.  For instance the badly stated math given for EAT is just tossed out there.  No derivation is given, hence no attribution can be drawn between it and EAT.  EAT as an hypothesis is self defeating, but that is fodder for another thread.

Masters of their game, like  Newton and Einstein get pummeled frequently on this site by folks that have no understanding of the work these men did.  What they were actually trying to do.  In science it is sufficient to provide a predictive model.  The 'mechanism', as it is put here, is not as important a 'goal' in physics as is the predictive model.  Physics is abut getting the job done.  The truth is that Newton's theory of universal gravitation provides far more insight to the 'mechanism' than does QM, yet QM has afforded us the development of cell phones, computers and the networks that allow us to exchange ideas.  We all accept cell phones, computers and the networks that connect them, don't we?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2018, 05:59:49 AM »
You guys have had several thousand years to figure out how reality works, and you still can't come up with a model that explains the mechanics of the solar system, galaxies, universe, or even the round earth itself since we continue to see observations and experiments which contradict the predictions.

FET is relatively new. What kind of math was provided for the round earth system a few years after it started to catch on world-wide?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 06:07:55 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2018, 07:54:05 AM »
You guys have had several thousand years to figure out how reality works, and you still can't come up with a model that explains the mechanics of the solar system, galaxies, universe, or even the round earth itself since we continue to see observations and experiments which contradict the predictions.

FET is relatively new. What kind of math was provided for the round earth system a few years after it started to catch on world-wide?
All observations and measurements prove a round earth.  Why have you not provided any alternative distances?

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Offline AATW

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Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2018, 10:29:18 AM »
You guys have had several thousand years to figure out how reality works, and you still can't come up with a model that explains the mechanics of the solar system, galaxies, universe, or even the round earth itself since we continue to see observations and experiments which contradict the predictions.

FET is relatively new. What kind of math was provided for the round earth system a few years after it started to catch on world-wide?
You need to understand that the "you guys" is "humanity". That includes you, and me. Yes, we as a species have had thousands of years to figure things out. Interesting to think about where the clock starts - when did we first start trying to figure out how reality works rather than just trying to survive - but I would certainly agree with thousands. But it should be taken into account that for much of that time we didn't have the tools necessary to understand things properly. How do you understand about pathogens if you don't have microscopes? How do you understand the universe if you don't have telescopes? In the context of those thousands of years the tools we've needed to really understand stuff have only been available for a short time. It's only in the last 60 years or so we've had the ability to launch stuff into space which has helped us explore the other planets, visit the moon, launch Hubble and learn all kinds of new things. In some ways our understanding of things is quite mature, in other ways we're just getting started.

You're right, we as a species do not have a complete model of how everything works. If we did then we wouldn't need to do science, we'd have it all worked out. The fact our model is incomplete is partly because the more we look the more complicated reality seems to be - quantum theory is a good example from the last century, how could people hundreds of years ago have had any idea that crazy stuff like that was going on. And it's partly because we've only recently had the tools to really discover what is going on. A few hundred years ago Newton thought he'd figured out gravity and how things move. His model passed a lot of tests and stood the test of time, it got us to the moon. It is still for most practical purposes a very useful model. But Einstein came along and showed that Newton wasn't quite right, Einstein's model is more complete, it works in more scenarios and has also stood the test of time and passed a lot of experimental tests - GPS wouldn't work if relatavistic effects weren't accounted for. Maybe someone will come along one day and give us an even more complete model of how things work. That is how things work in real science. Models are developed which explain things and can predict things, if the model is shown to fail then it is either modified or - in the example of the geocentric model - abandoned completely. Various ways were tried to fix the geocentric model to take account of the movement of planets, in the end the only way of fixing it so that it matched observations was to abandon it and realise that the heliocentric model was correct.

And that is also what happened with FET. It is not new, it was the model which the ancients believed. And why wouldn't you? If you just go about your day to day business why wouldn't you think that you live on a flat plane and the sun and stars go around it (by "around", most people would have assumed that the sun goes under the flat earth at night because you see the sun going down below the horizon). But then Eratosthenes came along and showed that if we're on a flat plane then the shadows would be of consistent length across it at a certain time of day, but that wasn't the case. A curved surface explains that. Things like that saw the flat earth model rejected. As you note in your Wiki, an alternative explanation is a small, near sun. But were that the case you would be able to measure the distance to it by measuring the angle of the sun in different places a known distance apart at the same time and triangulating. I have seen no evidence that FE has done this. So much for empiricism. You can't just provide an altenative explanation for the experiment result without some evidence that that explanation is correct.

Our current model of the solar system is pretty good. I don't know what your "observations and experiments which contradict the predictions" are but looking at your posts most of your problems with mainstream science are you just not understanding things, despite repeated explanations. And you refuse to do any experiments which would help you understand things when they are suggested. So you don't learn anything. Several experiments to measure horizon dip have been outlined, you refused to do any. You lament you have no budget but nor does Bobby and he showed horizon dip very clearly. You laments about a lack of budget make as much sense as someone on a modern day alchemy forum lamenting that there is no budget for research into alchemy. No, there isn't. And for good reason. When alchemy was a big thing loads of people tried to do it and no-one succeeded. In the end it was concluded it was impossible. We now understand why it's impossible - I'm getting to the limit of my understanding here but it's something to do with the sheer amount of energy required to turn one element into another, it's something which generally only happens in stars. If someone there said "be fair, alchemy is quite new" it would be a ridiculous statement, as is yours. Alchemy isn't new, the idea of a flat earth isn't new, both were rejected when they were shown not to work.

I asked you previously in this thread on what basis you were satisfied that the earth is flat. You never replied. Care to share with the class now?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2018, 12:50:11 PM »
You guys have had several thousand years to figure out how reality works, and you still can't come up with a model that explains the mechanics of the solar system, galaxies, universe, or even the round earth itself since we continue to see observations and experiments which contradict the predictions.

FET is relatively new. What kind of math was provided for the round earth system a few years after it started to catch on world-wide?

Calculations of the circumference, carried out 80-100 years apart, by differing teams and methods, concur with each other.

The first of these was based on measurement of an arc over the surface, deriving the angle between the two ends of the arc, and extrapolating from this the length of one degree of arc, and multiplying that one degree by 360 to gain the circumference figure. This has been repeated all over the world, with consistent results.

If you measure between two points on a flat earth, what does that tell you? It's not an arc, so you can't apply any calculation of an angle to it. Where would you draw the angle?

Measurement of orbital craft, applying space geodesy to these measurements also concurs.

Rama Set

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2018, 01:58:56 PM »
Tom thinks because we didn’t learn everything already that what we have learned must be dubious. It’s a completely erroneous assertion.

BillO

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2018, 02:10:37 PM »
You guys have had several thousand years to figure out how reality works, and you still can't come up with a model that explains the mechanics of the solar system, galaxies, universe, or even the round earth itself since we continue to see observations and experiments which contradict the predictions.

FET is relatively new. What kind of math was provided for the round earth system a few years after it started to catch on world-wide?
So, maybe it takes another 1000 years, or maybe 10,000 years.  We have some things as close as required for daily use.  Newtonian mechanics is useful for 99.99999% of our needs.  We can invoke GR or QM as required to get a few more 9s on there as required. The point is, we are going in the right direction.  Getting more accurate and more precise.  With each new major advancement (about every 200 years or so) we get much closer.

FE had it's day.  It was gleefully left behind thousands of years ago because it explained nothing.  It still explains nothing and according to a lot of FE proponents, like "The Morgile", no explanations (as in predictive models) are required.  With that kind of attitude in teh FE corner, the situation is not likely to get much better.

It is well known that our eyes are easily fooled and are extremely limited in their ability to observe the universe.  Basing a substitute for science on visual observation is most likely a mistake.

totallackey

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2018, 11:31:58 AM »
What would you do, experimentally, to establish whether or not the Earth is flat, round, oblate spheroid, or whatever?

Assume you have an unlimited budget, and access to any technology currently available, anywhere in the world (no time-travel, teleportation, or other Star Trek variants allowed).

What would you want to do, in order to satisfy yourself?
I have personally measured the altitude of the Sun over the flat plane of the Earth and have found it to be approximately 5600 miles.

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Offline AATW

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Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2018, 11:39:46 AM »
I have personally measured the altitude of the Sun over the flat plane of the Earth and have found it to be approximately 5600 miles.
Can you share your method of doing this and the results of your experiment where you did it?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

totallackey

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2018, 12:07:16 PM »
I have personally measured the altitude of the Sun over the flat plane of the Earth and have found it to be approximately 5600 miles.
Can you share your method of doing this and the results of your experiment where you did it?
Yes I can.

First, you need to know the distance between you and the Sun. This can be found at timeanddate.

When I took the measurement it was at 1700 miles.

B, you need a object of known height to place between you and the Sun so that the top of the object and the top of the Sun are perceived to be the same.

III, you then measure the distance between yourself and the base of the object.

This establishes a ratio serving to derive the altitude of the observed object.

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Offline AATW

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Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2018, 12:37:24 PM »
First, you need to know the distance between you and the Sun. This can be found at timeanddate.
OK, you're going to need to talk me through this part.
How can I use timeanddate to determine the distance between me and the sun?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

totallackey

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2018, 12:58:11 PM »
First, you need to know the distance between you and the Sun. This can be found at timeanddate.
OK, you're going to need to talk me through this part.
How can I use timeanddate to determine the distance between me and the sun?
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html

This will show you the latitude and longitude of the Sun.

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2018, 01:32:05 PM »
Without some form of 'fudge factor' I would predict nearly every latitude will locate the sun at a different height using this method. Some will be closer than others, but there will be a large variance overall (as already evidenced by Totallackey's disagreement with the height measured by the Eratosthenes experiment.)

totallackey

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2018, 01:46:46 PM »
Without some form of 'fudge factor' I would predict nearly every latitude will locate the sun at a different height using this method. Some will be closer than others, but there will be a large variance overall (as already evidenced by Totallackey's disagreement with the height measured by the Eratosthenes experiment.)
And your prediction would be wrong.

Every single sentence written in your post is incorrect.

Despite what the wiki claims here, the experiment performed by Eratosthenes is not legitimate for measuring altitude and is not used by surveyors at all.

The method I put forth is used by surveyors for measuring the altitude and height of objects by surveyors.

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Offline AATW

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Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2018, 02:26:06 PM »
First, you need to know the distance between you and the Sun. This can be found at timeanddate.
OK, you're going to need to talk me through this part.
How can I use timeanddate to determine the distance between me and the sun?
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html

This will show you the latitude and longitude of the Sun.

Thank you.

The flaw in your method is you are assuming a flat earth.
So you're calculating the black dotted line when actually you can see that the sun is far more distant in reality:



Obviously this is not to scale at all. If you imagine a far more distant sun in that diagram then you should be able to see that the error is orders of magnitude more than shown in that picture. That's why you're getting thousands of miles rather than millions.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: What Would You Do?
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2018, 02:27:36 PM »
Without some form of 'fudge factor' I would predict nearly every latitude will locate the sun at a different height using this method. Some will be closer than others, but there will be a large variance overall (as already evidenced by Totallackey's disagreement with the height measured by the Eratosthenes experiment.)
And your prediction would be wrong.

Every single sentence written in your post is incorrect.

Despite what the wiki claims here, the experiment performed by Eratosthenes is not legitimate for measuring altitude and is not used by surveyors at all.

The method I put forth is used by surveyors for measuring the altitude and height of objects by surveyors.
Simply declaring my prediction incorrect with nothing to show for it does nothing. It's an empty claim. Your second sentence is complete hyperbole. The Eratosthenes experiment is almost exactly what you have described doing, if you don't understand that I'm sorry.

That said I'd love to see more of these done. OR, if you accept information provided by timeanddate.com as accurate, they provide the angle of elevation to the sun as well. Which could be easily used to figure out the height of the sun for multiple locations. I'd be more than happy to do the leg work there if you would accept the results.