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Offline stack

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2022, 05:43:54 AM »
Okay, to answer your questions from before - yes, it's a south centered AE map with Antarctica at the center.  Even though they say Anarctica is where the geographic and magnetic south pole is it is not.  The polarity of Antarctica is North with upward moving magnetic field lines as illustrated in the picture above.

To quickly sum up the model here, the sun is stationary.  Earth tilts towards the sun just like the Round Earth model.  But instead of Earth orbitting the sun, it also sits stationary beneath the sun and wobbles once a year to account for seasonal and celestial visual changes.   It's not a spot light sun, it just hovers near Earth like all the other planets but uses the Earths atmosphere to divide the light into night and day.  And our Earthly solar system I think is simply a small Galaxy orbitting the Milky Way.

How does the atmosphere know how to divide the light? And where is the north pole again? Underneath the disk?

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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2022, 06:01:42 AM »
Its just an optical property of the atmosphere (imo)...

I updated the Magnet Picture below... 

The north pole as we know it on a spherical world (90'N Latitude) would be on the underside of a flat earth below the south pole / Antarctica.   Imagine your standing at the north pole on a spherical earth and the world is squished a little into a disc shape.  The south pole would still be beneath your feet on the other side of the world.   The only difference is that on a flat world we would only live in one particular hemisphere, or one side of earth, but the magnetic lines do dip under. 

« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 07:32:44 AM by Tron »
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2022, 09:01:12 AM »
Quote
The problem is that it can't be the same as round Earth, because in RE, it's cause by phenomenon that only apply to RE. Things like the Coriolis effect occurring throughout the entire planet, if at all. The RE explanation isn't applicable with FE, because as far as I can tell the Coriolis effect isn't even a thing in (this chapter of) FE theory.

Exactly.

Quote
Earth's magnetic field is generated by what is known as the geodynamo process. According to National Geographic(opens in new tab), for a planet to generate its own magnetic field by the geodynamo process, it must have the following characteristics:

The planet rotates fast enough
Its interior must have a fluid medium 
The interior fluid must have the ability to conduct electricity
The core must have an internal source of energy that propels convection currents in the liquid interior

https://www.space.com/earths-magnetic-field-explained

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Offline Magicalus

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2022, 01:46:56 PM »
I need some more info before my next rebuttal:

Tron, How thick would you say this flat Earth is? (I don't need precision here, just give me a rough idea.) To get it out of the way, if you think the Kola Superdeep Borehole really happened, it has to be at least 12 km.

Also, in your model, do we pass over the edge to get to the other hemisphere?

And finally, do you have a rebuttal to my magnet points? These ones:

Okay, so when you go to the south pole, you are not also going to north pole because that is located beneath Earth on the other side. 

So a compass will only respond to the polarity of a magnet near your location.


No. A compass is attracted to both the north and south pole, because it's a magnet. If these poles are both in the same place, then it will be attracted to both equally.

Here's why: take a look at this image.


The compass in the middle is pointing both ways, with the north pole of the compass facing the south pole of the bar magnet. Now, if we rotate the magnet 90 degrees to be vertical, the compass will change direction unpredictably; it might follow the north pole or the south pole. But once the magnet is vertical, the compass is equally attracted to both poles again, so it balances back out to pointing east-west.

There is a much simpler problem though; if you buy an unweighted compass(they weight them for accuracy reason to due with latitude) and hold it vertically in the southern hemisphere, the southern end points down. In your model, we would expect the opposite, because the North pole is upwards. This happens in RE because the magnetic pole is technically through the earth.

(Edited after confirmation of south pole map from Tron, also to add clarity)

They're just invisible and otherwise imperceivable, but they're out there. You know it's true because a man on the Internet, said so.

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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2022, 02:48:51 PM »
I need some more info before my next rebuttal:

Tron, How thick would you say this flat Earth is?  No Idea (I don't need precision here, just give me a rough idea.) Maybe a quarter of the earth's diameter?To get it out of the way, if you think the Kola Superdeep Borehole really happened, it has to be at least 12 km.

Also, in your model, do we pass over the edge to get to the other hemisphere?  Yes

And finally, do you have a rebuttal to my magnet points? These ones:

Okay, so when you go to the south pole, you are not also going to north pole because that is located beneath Earth on the other side. 

So a compass will only respond to the polarity of a magnet near your location.


No. A compass is attracted to both the north and south pole, because it's a magnet. If these poles are both in the same place, then it will be attracted to both equally. Why do you think the poles are in the same place?  When you go to the north pole on a round earth is a compass attracted by the south pole as well?  Look at the picture I made... The poles on are opposite sides of the earth, just like on a spherical earth. 

Here's why: take a look at this image.


The compass in the middle is pointing both ways, with the north pole of the compass facing the south pole of the bar magnet. Now, if we rotate the magnet 90 degrees to be vertical, the compass will change direction unpredictably; it might follow the north pole or the south pole. But once the magnet is vertical, the compass is equally attracted to both poles again, so it balances back out to pointing east-west.

There is a much simpler problem though; if you buy an unweighted compass(they weight them for accuracy reason to due with latitude) and hold it vertically in the southern hemisphere, the southern end points down. In your model, we would expect the opposite, because the North pole is upwards. This happens in RE because the magnetic pole is technically through the earth.    A magnetic disc works the same as a spherical magnet as far as i can see... If you go to the north end of a sphere or a disk, then the south end of a compass will point down.  And viceversa for the south side of a magnet

(Edited after confirmation of south pole map from Tron, also to add clarity)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 04:22:32 AM by Tron »
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2022, 03:27:26 PM »
.... t on a flat world we would only live in one particular hemisphere, or one side of earth

A hemisphere is half of a sphere. One side of your flat earth is a disc. A circle enclosed by a plane. You cannot have hemispheres on a flat earth. Geometrically impossible. You need to have a sphere in order to divide it into two hemispheres.
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Offline stack

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2022, 06:45:20 PM »
Its just an optical property of the atmosphere (imo)...

I understand that it would be an optical property. But how does the optical property know when to predictably switch day for night for all points on earth? In other words, how does the property work?

I updated the Magnet Picture below... 

The north pole as we know it on a spherical world (90'N Latitude) would be on the underside of a flat earth below the south pole / Antarctica.   Imagine your standing at the north pole on a spherical earth and the world is squished a little into a disc shape.  The south pole would still be beneath your feet on the other side of the world.   The only difference is that on a flat world we would only live in one particular hemisphere, or one side of earth, but the magnetic lines do dip under. 



How do people get to the North Pole if it's on the underside of the disk? Many people have been there and many a plane have flown over it. How did they pull that off?

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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2022, 06:56:02 PM »
Stack, the atmosphere is like my unpopular glass dome experiments where I show you how a source of light which mimics the sun, can hit class at a certain angle and represent the amount of light people see on earth if it were flat...  Remember the earth spins and wobbles which scatter light in different directions.

And for your second question, not many people have been to the north pole.  I'm aware of a few skiers, a motorcyclist, a cruise ship, and some science expedition's who have been there...  And that's not even the edge of the world in my opinion.  And even if a person descided to travel farther and farther in a particular direction which is near the edge of the world, I'm told the air is so thin that planes can't get there and probably any other machine or human that I know of. 
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2022, 10:44:11 PM »
I'm told the air is so thin that planes can't get there and probably any other machine or human that I know of.

By whom?

Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2022, 11:09:58 PM »


And for your second question, not many people have been to the north pole.  I'm aware of a few skiers, a motorcyclist, a cruise ship, and some science expedition's who have been there...  And that's not even the edge of the world in my opinion.  And even if a person descided to travel farther and farther in a particular direction which is near the edge of the world, I'm told the air is so thin that planes can't get there and probably any other machine or human that I know of.


So, if only one person had been to the North Pole, then someone's been there.  But of course, hundreds of people have been there.  Motorcyclists?  Probably, they are a hardy and impetuous bunch.  Cruise ship?  Don't think so, due to the permanent presence of pack ice.  Skiers and scientists?  Definitely.  You forgot to mention Sir Michael Palin; author, traveller and parrot-sketch participant (check out his book and TV series "Pole to Pole".  And what about the daily overflights by international airlines?  For instance, look at Finnair A.350 OH-LWO; left Seoul at 23.24 tonight, flew northeast across the Bering Sea around Russia then almost due north heading across the pole to Helsinki.  Check it out on FR24. 

(edit) And, yes, the thin air thing.  By whom?

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Offline stack

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2022, 12:02:10 AM »
Stack, the atmosphere is like my unpopular glass dome experiments where I show you how a source of light which mimics the sun, can hit class at a certain angle and represent the amount of light people see on earth if it were flat...  Remember the earth spins and wobbles which scatter light in different directions.

Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot about the rotating disk. A rarity among FEr's from what I've seen. Is the sun stationary or does it move too?

One of the reasons your "dome" experiments are controversial is because they are not "dome" experiments. They are
"paperweight" experiments. Meaning you used a hunk of solid glass, not a hollowed out dome, like an upside down glass bowl. Your experiment/model would crush everything and everyone on earth.

And for your second question, not many people have been to the north pole.  I'm aware of a few skiers, a motorcyclist, a cruise ship, and some science expedition's who have been there...  And that's not even the edge of the world in my opinion.  And even if a person descided to travel farther and farther in a particular direction which is near the edge of the world, I'm told the air is so thin that planes can't get there and probably any other machine or human that I know of.

For $31k you can take a 2 week excursion to the north pole on a luxury ice-breaker with helicopter tours and polar bear sightings.

Visiting The North Pole



Are these people on the underside of the disk? If so, how did they flip down to get there?

And who exactly told you the air is thin somewhere around there? And why would that be anyway?


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Offline Magicalus

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2022, 03:11:05 AM »
So, I have a new problem with your model, that has to do with a double sided Earth having any thickness; you posit that what we recognize as hemispheres are the two sides of the flat earth, with the equator on the rim. Here's the problem: that means there must be a ton of land on the rim, and thus a large area both on and off the rim where you would expect to see the earth curve (relatively)  sharply downward, with no horizon. You estimate the earth to have a thickness of about 1/4 the flat earth's circumference. Turns out, I didn't need that estimate, because no estimate works. If the Earth is thin, there isn't be enough iron in the earth's core to create the magnetic field, plus the view on the rim would be incredibly peculiar, with ground sharply dropping off before the horizon, even on the equator. If the earth is thick, then much more land is on the rim.

That's a problem for one big reasons: measurements. I know that this chapter of FE doesn't trust all the measurements we get for the world, especially at sea, but this would take it to a whole new level. The thinner the rim is, the less land is on it, so it works. But as previously mentioned, this would lead to perspective issues. But if it's thicker, than the circumference of the earth shrinks, because the contiguous landmasses over the equator mean that we can't fudge it: there's less surface area on the disk part. If you DID fudge it, and you would have to fudge it pretty heavily for this to work, than measurements on land, which can be verified much more easily, would be so incredibly far off it would be impossible to keep under wraps. So, the circumference logically must shrink.

But if the circumference shrinks, that brings up all kinds of new and exciting issues with the landmasses near the equator. See, the circumference of the cylinder would be in line with measurements for things near the edge of the rim. As you get farther though, things start shrinking fast. Think about it; the landmasses near the equator would have to be much smaller, because they now have less latitude to work with than in both the globe model and most FE models. Once again, though measurements can be fudged, this would take a LOT of fudging.

And isn't the whole reason FE doesn't have one conclusive model because none of them line up with measurements?

Oh, and the good ol' Coriolis effect has come back once more! See, this effect just wouldn't work on the rim. like, at all.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 03:49:55 AM by Magicalus »
They're just invisible and otherwise imperceivable, but they're out there. You know it's true because a man on the Internet, said so.

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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2022, 05:39:21 AM »
Duncan - I admit, I do not understand why planes think they are going north on a flat earth when I assume they are travelling east or west to cicumnavigate the arctic regions...

I do notice the live tracking of north polar flights is cut off from the internet ... Any idea why?  What technology are they using?

And I'd prefer to keep my "sources" of why the air get's thinner near the poles or beyond them....  but this is already a phenomenon we observe up there.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 08:29:37 AM by Tron »
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2022, 06:19:45 AM »
Stack, I've never said Earth is a hollowed out Dome..

Here is a quote from Enyclopedia Britannica:

The total mass of Earth’s atmosphere is about 5.5 quadrillion tons, or roughly one millionth of Earth’s mass.


That's alot of atmospheric mass even when compared to Earth.  To say it's not possible for air to affect the way we see objects on or away from Earth is unfair.

https://www.britannica.com/story/how-much-does-earths-atmosphere-weigh
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 08:12:21 AM by Tron »
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2022, 09:03:12 AM »
you posit that what we recognize as hemispheres are the two sides of the flat earth, with the equator on the rim.[/b]

That's not what I believe. I believe in a conventional South Pole centered AE map with a few alterations...   

The point i was trying to make earlier is that you can think of a flat earth like a round earth when it comes to magnetism....   The magnetic field lines of each model lie along the axis of rotation. 
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2022, 10:00:30 AM »
Here is a quote from Enyclopedia Britannica:

The total mass of Earth’s atmosphere is about 5.5 quadrillion tons, or roughly one millionth of Earth’s mass.

Here's another;

Quote
Since the Copernican revolution of the 16th century, at which time the Polish astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus proposed a Sun-centred model of the universe (see heliocentric system), enlightened thinkers have regarded Earth as a planet like the others of the solar system. Concurrent sea voyages provided practical proof that Earth is a globe, just as Galileo’s use of his newly invented telescope in the early 17th century soon showed various other planets to be globes as well. It was only after the dawn of the space age, however, when photographs from rockets and orbiting spacecraft first captured the dramatic curvature of Earth’s horizon, that the conception of Earth as a roughly spherical planet rather than as a flat entity was verified by direct human observation. Humans first witnessed Earth as a complete orb floating in the inky blackness of space in December 1968 when Apollo 8 carried astronauts around the Moon. Robotic space probes on their way to destinations beyond Earth, such as the Galileo and the Near Earth Asteroid Rendezvous (NEAR) spacecraft in the 1990s, also looked back with their cameras to provide other unique portraits of the planet.

Is the EB to be relied upon?
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2022, 10:03:26 AM »
... the atmosphere is like my unpopular glass dome experiments where I show you how ...

Proof please, of the likenesses between the two.
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2022, 10:18:16 AM »
Evidence that the atmosphere is shaped like a dome is in its ability to explain everyday observations like sunsets and star trails from a flat earth perspective. 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 10:23:08 AM by Tron »
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2022, 04:11:56 PM »
Evidence that the atmosphere is shaped like a dome is in its ability to explain everyday observations like sunsets and star trails from a flat earth perspective.

Atmo-SPHERE.

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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2022, 04:17:51 PM »
Atmo-Semi Sphere!
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?