Re: Trump
« Reply #9680 on: July 23, 2022, 02:25:59 PM »
January hearings quick summary.

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/22/1112324462/jan-6-hearing-takeaways

The sad thing is that just like the Mueller Report, it's the object truth, in black and white, in their face, kicking their ass and the dim-witted right will still willfully ignore it. Like Nixon, everyone around Trump will go to jail and he'll walk away
Probably true, but one silver lining from all this is it now seems vanishingly unlikely that Trump will get another term. My nephew is convinced he will, but my nephew is wrong about most things (his other greatest hits this year being that Putin is about to start a nuclear war and that Boris Johnson would survive as PM - the latter he said the day before he resigned).
I can see the Republican Party touching him again. And even if they did, while all the cult members would vote for Trump no matter what, the reason Trump got in was in part because of a lot of “anyone but Hillary” voters. Surely a lot of those would become “anyone but Trump”.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9681 on: July 24, 2022, 05:00:22 PM »
This passage from the Inspector General's DOD Review contradicts the fundamental accusations of the January 6 investigation and Trump's role in the purported 'insurrection'. In the review it indicates that Trump wanted sufficient numbers of National Guard or Soldiers at the protest to make sure it was a safe event:

https://justthenews.com/sites/default/files/2022-07/DODIG-2022-039%20V2%20508.pdf

From p.31 -

« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 05:12:45 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9682 on: July 24, 2022, 06:05:31 PM »
This passage from the Inspector General's DOD Review contradicts the fundamental accusations of the January 6 investigation and Trump's role in the purported 'insurrection'. In the review it indicates that Trump wanted sufficient numbers of National Guard or Soldiers at the protest to make sure it was a safe event:

https://justthenews.com/sites/default/files/2022-07/DODIG-2022-039%20V2%20508.pdf

From p.31 -




From the page before.

Quote
Mr. Miller told us, “There was absolutely no way ... I was putting U.S. military forces at the
Capitol, period.” He cited media stories alleging that the President’s advisors were pushing him to
declare martial law to invalidate the election and that Mr. Miller was an ally installed as the Acting
SecDef to facilitate a coup. He also cited a January 3, 2021 open letter from 10 former Secretaries of
Defense warning the DoD not to use the military in a manner antithetical to the U.S. Constitution.
Mr. Miller stated that he “made a very deliberate decision that I would not put U.S. military people
... East of the 9th Street, northwest. ... And the reason for that was I knew if the morning of the 6th
or prior if we put U.S. military personnel on the Capitol, I would have created the greatest
Constitutional crisis probably since the Civil War.”

The real question is... why was there so many protestors?  Why was there a threat?  And why didn't Trump actually ensure it was safe for the exchange of power?  And why did he actually help make it UNSAFE?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9683 on: July 24, 2022, 06:46:23 PM »
You are quoting things that Miller said in that passage, not Trump. Trump wanted sufficient numbers of National Guard and Soldiers at the protest.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9684 on: July 24, 2022, 06:51:48 PM »
You are quoting things that Miller said in that passage, not Trump. Trump wanted sufficient numbers of National Guard and Soldiers at the protest.

Then why didn't he call them when shit was going down (and don't say he did call them because one of his excuses was to blame Nancy Pelosi for not calling them.)
“I thought it was a shame, and I kept asking, why isn’t she doing something about it? Why isn’t Nancy Pelosi doing something about it? And the mayor of D.C. also. The mayor of D.C. and Nancy Pelosi are in charge,”

Way to spring into action Mr Commander in chief.

For real scary reading check out section V. (events of the day)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 06:54:00 PM by Dr Van Nostrand »
My hate for you and everything you stand for is so much deeper than the depths of Shambala that you could probably take the entire Lungmen population down there and back up around twenty million times before you would have sunk to the end of my hate.



Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9685 on: July 24, 2022, 06:59:44 PM »
You are quoting things that Miller said in that passage, not Trump. Trump wanted sufficient numbers of National Guard and Soldiers at the protest.
I am.  You're point being?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9686 on: July 24, 2022, 11:19:48 PM »
Trump wanted sufficient numbers of National Guard and Soldiers at the protest.
Is Trump willing to say that under oath from the witness chair?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9687 on: July 25, 2022, 01:56:52 AM »
You are quoting things that Miller said in that passage, not Trump. Trump wanted sufficient numbers of National Guard and Soldiers at the protest.

To fight for which side?

Offline ohplease

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9688 on: July 25, 2022, 07:33:10 AM »
You are quoting things that Miller said in that passage, not Trump. Trump wanted sufficient numbers of National Guard and Soldiers at the protest.
Trump could at any time have picked up the phone and ordered the guard out to anywhere in DC.  He did not do so.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9689 on: July 25, 2022, 11:05:38 AM »
It was not Trump's responsibility to approve usage of the the National Guard. The approval was already given and delegated in days prior. Trump had already delegated deployment of the guard to the Defense Secretary -

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/politics/ap-fact-check-trump-distorts-record-on-national-guard-in-dc/2441407/

    National Guard troops had already been activated and deployed to checkpoints around the city that day, before the violence began. When the rioting started, Washington Mayor Muriel Bowser requested more Guard help, on behalf of the Capitol Police. That request was made to Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy, who then went to acting Defense Secretary Christopher Miller, who approved it.

    The Pentagon said Miller approved the request without speaking with the White House because he had gotten direction from the president days earlier to do whatever he deemed necessary with the Guard.

The President does not need to be involved in every police action. This is why he has generals and appropriate personnel who decide when and if to act.

The Defense Secretary affirms that it was his sole responsibility to deploy the Guard:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-117hhrg44570/html/CHRG-117hhrg44570.htm

Quote
    Mr. Miller, you were the Acting Secretary of Defense on
January 6. Did President Trump, as the commander-in-chief of
the U.S. Armed Forces, call you during the January 6 attack to
ensure the Capitol was being secured? Mr. Miller?

    Mr. Miller: No, I had all the authority I needed from the
President to fulfill my constitutional duties.

    Chairwoman Maloney: Did you speak with President Trump at
all as the attack was unfolding?

    Mr. Miller: On January 6?

    Chairwoman Maloney: Yes.

    Mr. Miller: No, I did not. I didn't need to. I had all the
authority I needed and knew what had to--I knew what had to
happen.

    Chairwoman Maloney: Did you speak with Vice President Pence
during the attack, yes or no?

    Mr. Miller: Yes.

    Chairwoman Maloney: According to a Defense Department
timeline, it was Vice President Pence, and not President Trump,
who called during the siege to say the Capitol was not secure
and to give you the direction to ``clear the Capitol.'' What
specifically did Vice President Pence say to you that day?

    Mr. Miller: The Vice President is not in the chain of
command. He did not direct me to clear the Capitol. I discussed
very briefly with him the situation. He provided insights based
on his presence there, and I notified him or I informed him
that by that point, the District of Columbia National Guard was
being fully mobilized, and it was in coordination with local
and Federal law enforcement to assist in clearing the Capitol.

    Chairwoman Maloney: According to the DOD timeline, the Vice
President's call to you occurred at 4:08 p.m., more than two
hours after the Capitol had been breached. Yet according to
this timeline, it was not until after your call with the Vice
President at 4:32 p.m. that you authorized D.C. National Guard
troops to deploy to the Capitol.

    Did you issue your order in response to the Vice
President's call?

    Mr. Miller: No. I issued the order to mobilize the District
of Columbia National Guard and provide all necessary support to
civilian and local and Federal law enforcement at 3--I gave
approval at 3 p.m., and the order was issued at 3:04 p.m.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 11:12:47 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9690 on: July 25, 2022, 11:11:08 AM »
Anyone remember when The Buck Stops Here, was a thing?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9691 on: July 25, 2022, 11:17:48 AM »
Anyone remember when The Buck Stops Here, was a thing?

Yes, and Trump fulfilled his responsibility. Trump had thought ahead and gave full permission to use the Guard prior to the event at the time officials and experts monitoring the event deemed appropriate and necessary. The Defense Secretary maintains that he used the Guard at the appropriate time.

Usage of the Guard was a sensitive issue for image reasons. Congress was already evacuated and it was not necessary to send in soldiers immediately for direct confrontation as the Capitol was being breached. The Guard was smartly sent in to gently escort them out after they had done their tour of the Capitol building.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 11:50:32 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9692 on: July 25, 2022, 11:24:36 AM »
Anyone remember when The Buck Stops Here, was a thing?

Yes, and Trump fulfilled his responsibility. Trump had thought ahead and gave full permission to use the Guard prior to the event at the time officials and experts monitoring the event deemed appropriate and necessary. The Defense Secretary maintains that he used the Guard at the appropriate time.
Maybe so.
But thats not the focus of the investigation, is it?
The focus is: Did Trump want people to do what they did and give him the election win by force?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline ohplease

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9693 on: July 25, 2022, 05:03:06 PM »
It was not Trump's responsibility to approve usage of the the National Guard. The approval was already given and delegated in days prior. Trump had already delegated deployment of the guard to the Defense Secretary -
All modern presidents (since WWII) have delegated NG deployment decisions to the Secretary of Defense who delegates it to the Secretary of the Army.  Note that they are under command of the President.  For a state this responsibility goes to the Governor, but DC is not a state so the President plays this role.  Trump is watching the whole thing first in person then from the Whitehouse (live on TV).  As soon as the crowed pushed over the first barrier at the bottom of the Capital steps he could have picked up the phone and called the Secretary of the Army and said "I want a thousand NG troops outside the Capital now", and they likely would have been there in 10 minutes.  There would have been no discussion about optics as it would be a direct order from the President not a request from the Mayor or the Chief of the Capital police etc.

But he did not do so. It seems quite clear that he wanted the constitutionally mandated process interrupted by the mob.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9694 on: July 25, 2022, 05:28:33 PM »
It was not Trump's responsibility to approve usage of the the National Guard. The approval was already given and delegated in days prior. Trump had already delegated deployment of the guard to the Defense Secretary -
All modern presidents (since WWII) have delegated NG deployment decisions to the Secretary of Defense who delegates it to the Secretary of the Army.  Note that they are under command of the President.  For a state this responsibility goes to the Governor, but DC is not a state so the President plays this role.  Trump is watching the whole thing first in person then from the Whitehouse (live on TV).  As soon as the crowed pushed over the first barrier at the bottom of the Capital steps he could have picked up the phone and called the Secretary of the Army and said "I want a thousand NG troops outside the Capital now", and they likely would have been there in 10 minutes.  There would have been no discussion about optics as it would be a direct order from the President not a request from the Mayor or the Chief of the Capital police etc.

But he did not do so. It seems quite clear that he wanted the constitutionally mandated process interrupted by the mob.

Instead he tweeted about how Mike Pence betrayed him.  It's like he did the opposite of trying to help the situation.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: Trump
« Reply #9695 on: July 25, 2022, 06:07:45 PM »
Anyone remember when The Buck Stops Here, was a thing?

Yes, and Trump fulfilled his responsibility.
That would work way better as an argument had it not been Trump who had stirred up the angry mob with months of unsubstantiated lies about how he (and therefore they) had been robbed. And all because he’s a narcissistic giant toddler who couldn’t accept that the country told him no. So protect his fragile ego he tried to rip the country apart rather than accepting the defeat graciously. Disgraceful really. It’s incredible how many cult members still defend him.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline stack

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9696 on: July 25, 2022, 07:03:51 PM »
Anyone remember when The Buck Stops Here, was a thing?

Yes, and Trump fulfilled his responsibility.

He certainly did, according to his own sense of responsibility, the responsibility to put a stop to the peaceful transfer of power. He didn't do anything and hoped the mob, potentially armed, would get to Pence before he could open those ballot boxes. Calling in the NG might have spoiled that...

“I don’t f***ing care if they have weapons. They’re not here to hurt me. Take the f***ing mags (metal detectors) away. Let my people in. They can march to the Capitol from here. Let the people in. Take the f***ing mags away,” Ms. Hutchinson recalls overhearing Mr. Trump saying that day, shortly before he went on stage.

When former President Donald Trump heard his supporters chanting “hang Mike Pence” during the Jan. 6 Capitol riot, White House aides said he told them the vice president “deserves” it, according to a former White House aide who testified Tuesday to what she saw and heard during the weeks surrounding the attack.

“I remember Pat saying something to the effect of, ‘Mark, we need to do something more. They’re literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung,’” Hutchinson testified.
“Mark had responded something to the effect of, ‘You heard him, Pat. He thinks Mike deserves it. He doesn’t think they’re doing anything wrong,’” Hutchinson said.

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9697 on: July 25, 2022, 07:23:07 PM »
Imagine still not understanding Mr. MAGA did everything he could possibly do to destroy the democracy that once actually made this country great.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9698 on: July 25, 2022, 08:06:22 PM »
Quote from: stack
He certainly did, according to his own sense of responsibility, the responsibility to put a stop to the peaceful transfer of power. He didn't do anything and hoped the mob, potentially armed, would get to Pence before he could open those ballot boxes. Calling in the NG might have spoiled that...

Incorrect. Trump wanted the National Guard there and ultimately delegated the use of the National Guard to the Defense Secretary, who was adamant that they should be used appropriately. As much as you would have liked to see the National Guard swarm the Capitol and incite violence with batons or guns as the protestors were climbing up the steps that may not have been the appropriate course of action.

The protestors ended up taking a tour of of a largely empty Capitol building and were gently escorted out by the National Guard. You have provided no valid reason for why the Guard should have been ordered any earlier than they were. Your argument falls on a false premise that the Guard should have been there at the time you are demanding. Compared to the people who were in charge of this, you are no expert and have no experience, and therefore have no valid argument to make.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 09:21:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline ohplease

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9699 on: July 25, 2022, 08:46:33 PM »
Incorrect. Trump wanted the National Guard there ...
Since he could have brought them there in minutes with a simple phone call, but did not do so, clearly he did NOT want them there.
and ultimately delegated the use of the National Guard to the Defense Secretary
All modern presidents including Trump have delegated deployment of the DC national guard to the Secretary of Defense who delegates it to the Secretary of the Army, this is standard procedure and has nothing to do with this particular event.  The President is still at the top of the command tree and could have ordered the guard in at any time, like as soon as the first barricade was overrun especially since he knew the mob was armed sufficiently to not be able to get through metal detectors.

The protestors ended up taking a tour of of a largely empty Capitol building ...
If it was just "a tour" why was congress evacuated?  Why was Pence's security detail calling their families and telling them that they loved them clearly thinking that they might die in the next few minutes?