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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2022, 03:51:58 PM »
Could be the high cost is because of cities.
The median income varies by location.  $125k/year is insane in say... The fields of Oklahoma.  But is pretty close to normal in Manhattan.

As a federal law, it has to apply to everyone equally.  So they probably took the highest point and went there.

Like Doctors in NYC range from 27k - 250k a year.
And their loans: almost 200k

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-medical-school-debt/#:~:text=Average%20Medical%20School%20Debt%20for,said%20they%20had%20education%20debt.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2022, 04:01:12 PM »
I use a much more simple approach: if you make more than the median salary in your state, you're wealthy. T

So any individual making over $33,000/yr. where I live is wealthy.  I'm guessing more than a few individuals are disconnected from Rushy reality.

Yes, that's still true. If you live in a very low cost of living (or generally just plain poor state), then making some amount more than the median means you are making more than the majority of people in the state. If we don't define wealth as "more than most people", how exactly do we define it? Is "wealthy" just the top 5%? The top 1%? Is only 10 people on the planet wealthy and the rest are broke?

The fact that your current political system is too crippled to do anything useful does not prevent us from discussing what a good solution might look like.

It prevents the discussion from being useful. Intellectual masturbation discussions are your thing, not mine.

Could be the high cost is because of cities.
The median income varies by location.  $125k/year is insane in say... The fields of Oklahoma.  But is pretty close to normal in Manhattan.

As a federal law, it has to apply to everyone equally.  So they probably took the highest point and went there.

Like Doctors in NYC range from 27k - 250k a year.
And their loans: almost 200k

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-medical-school-debt/#:~:text=Average%20Medical%20School%20Debt%20for,said%20they%20had%20education%20debt.

The median individual income in New York City is 34,386 USD. A doctor making $100k/year is not in some kind of existential danger that requires the government help pay off their loans.

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2022, 04:30:20 PM »
I use a much more simple approach: if you make more than the median salary in your state, you're wealthy. T

So any individual making over $33,000/yr. where I live is wealthy.  I'm guessing more than a few individuals are disconnected from Rushy reality.

Yes, that's still true. If you live in a very low cost of living (or generally just plain poor state), then making some amount more than the median means you are making more than the majority of people in the state. If we don't define wealth as "more than most people", how exactly do we define it? Is "wealthy" just the top 5%? The top 1%? Is only 10 people on the planet wealthy and the rest are broke?


Which goes to my original statement.  "Wealthy" is quite subjective.  You telling someone who makes $40K a year that they're "wealthy" surely would elicit the response that you are "utterly disconnected from reality."

Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2022, 04:35:29 PM »
NYC is broken up into alot of areas, economically.  Taking an average median of the whole city is like averaging all of America then wondering why there are so many poor people in North Carolina.

Manhattan (which I referenced) has a high median compared to
The Bronx, which is 41,000.
Brooklyn is 53,000
Queens is 72,000
Statan island is 85,000

NYC has some crazy ass economic range.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2022, 04:42:35 PM »
Which goes to my original statement.  "Wealthy" is quite subjective.  You telling someone who makes $40K a year that they're "wealthy" surely would elicit the response that you are "utterly disconnected from reality."

People making more than most of the people around them do tend to be unaware of their predicament, that's true, but I don't see the relevance. Telling them "you're wealthy" only to hear "nooooooo ur rong!" is not unexpected (in fact I expect it more often than not). At 40k they're making about 30% more than most of the people around them if the median salary is 30k.

Most people don't like thinking they are wealthy because it shakes their moral stances. This is also why you can watch popular celebrities go from having little or no money to suddenly being millionaires, then, through the power of mental magic, being a millionaire isn't wealthy anymore. "nooooo, I'm not wealthy, it's the billionaires that are the problem!"

NYC is broken up into alot of areas, economically.  Taking an average median of the whole city is like averaging all of America then wondering why there are so many poor people in North Carolina.

Manhattan (which I referenced) has a high median compared to
The Bronx, which is 41,000.
Brooklyn is 53,000
Queens is 72,000
Statan island is 85,000

NYC has some crazy ass economic range.

Rich people live next to other rich people in their rich neighborhoods. Do you think I should qualify as not being wealthy because I live in neighborhood of other rich people, Dave? "I'm not rich, I can't be, I only have a 4000 sqft mansion, my neighbor's is 7000 sqft. He's the rich person, not me."

The salaries should absolutely be viewed as one unit and not broken up into rich/poor areas. Someone making $100k/year living in a Manhattan apartment isn't "not wealthy" just because they've chosen to live in a expensive area. A rich man isn't poor just because he chose to buy a Ferrari.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 04:44:45 PM by Rushy »

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2022, 05:06:17 PM »
@Rushy

Forgetting all the mean income stuff for a moment.

What must an individual be able to afford to do for you to consider them wealthy?
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2022, 05:50:22 PM »
Rich people live next to other rich people in their rich neighborhoods. Do you think I should qualify as not being wealthy because I live in neighborhood of other rich people, Dave? "I'm not rich, I can't be, I only have a 4000 sqft mansion, my neighbor's is 7000 sqft. He's the rich person, not me."

The salaries should absolutely be viewed as one unit and not broken up into rich/poor areas. Someone making $100k/year living in a Manhattan apartment isn't "not wealthy" just because they've chosen to live in a expensive area. A rich man isn't poor just because he chose to buy a Ferrari.
No, but my point is that what we consider to be poor varies based on location.  You could easily say "What?  You make only $20k in Louisiana doing factory work?  Move to NYC and get a job making  $50k doing the same thing!"  Not realizng that $20K in Louisiana would probably go just as far there as $50K in NYC would.  Cost of living and all that crap.


Now we don't know why that number was chosen for a single individual.  Double for a married couple.  For all we know, they looked at the average data of people with student loan debt, looked at the highest salary reported on their taxes, and took that.

ie. If 43 million people who had student loan debt had an income between 0 and 125K, they just went with 125k as the limit.
But what I am saying, just to hammer my point home, is that whatever the number is, it would have to account for every area of America, not some average of the whole nation, which is not going to be reflective of people living in cities and is way too high for people living in rural areas.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline stack

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2022, 06:28:49 PM »
If anyone is really interested, there's a ton of data in here that I think helped inform the latest proposal:

Trends in College Pricing and Student Aid 2021

It's all very complicated because there are so many factors. Debt to Income ratio is a biggy. Cost of living is another. And many more.

As for what is "wealthy", again, very complicated. Wealthy to me means I wouldn't need student loans at all. Or perhaps becoming wealthy, pay them off right quick so as not to incur interest. Is there a problem with "wealthy" people not paying their student loan debts?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2022, 07:32:33 PM »
No, but my point is that what we consider to be poor varies based on location.  You could easily say "What?  You make only $20k in Louisiana doing factory work?  Move to NYC and get a job making  $50k doing the same thing!"  Not realizng that $20K in Louisiana would probably go just as far there as $50K in NYC would.  Cost of living and all that crap.

The mean salary across the US varies quite little between cities. It only changes significantly when you start drilling down to rich areas versus impoverished areas because naturally rich people tend to congregate together to keep the poors out.

Now we don't know why that number was chosen for a single individual.  Double for a married couple.  For all we know, they looked at the average data of people with student loan debt, looked at the highest salary reported on their taxes, and took that.

ie. If 43 million people who had student loan debt had an income between 0 and 125K, they just went with 125k as the limit.
But what I am saying, just to hammer my point home, is that whatever the number is, it would have to account for every area of America, not some average of the whole nation, which is not going to be reflective of people living in cities and is way too high for people living in rural areas.

No one here is mentioning averages, which are a terrible metric for determining the real struggle of people regarding income in a certain area. There is no place in America where a $125k salary is, by any stretch of the imagination, not obscenely wealthy. Just because that person makes $125k in a coastal city "barely gets by" in his coastal city apartment is completely irrelevant. If a person wants to move to a big city, then they can make that choice and live with it. No one should feel sorry for anyone making more than twice the median HOUSEHOLD income in the US.



Student debt is very interesting. Let's take a look at a fella that the BBC interviewed:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62667867

Quote
"When Matthew Henderson graduated from Loyola University, he had limited his borrowing as much as possible.

Keen to pay off the roughly $20,000 he owed the federal government for his three-year programme, he began looking for work."

See, very understandable and respectable.

Quote
The political science and history major opted to further his education with a master's in legal studies from Washington University in St Louis.

Oh.

Quote
"Even though it was only an accelerated one-year programme, it still cost about $60,000, which was pretty much funded entirely through student loans," he said.

Oh...

Quote
For Mr Henderson, the move is "a great step, but I'm not certain it's the best he [Biden] could have done".

"I hoped to see him forgive up to $50,000," he concedes, nodding to more ambitious Democratic Party proposals turned down by the president.

It's almost like we should not reward idiots like this guy with free government money. It's amazing that the Dems would be so eager to give free money to a small portion of the population, thereby ensuring the rest are either neutral on the subject or enraged.
 


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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2022, 07:48:03 PM »
You know.  I was having kinda a mediocre day.  Imagine my change in attitude when I discovered I was "obscenely wealthy."

Funny thing is, my MAGA, Trump loving, anti-vaxer, covid denier sister-in-law once told my wife we make too much money.  Guess she was right after all.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 07:50:13 PM by WTF_Yuppie »
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline rooster

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2022, 08:09:14 PM »
You know.  I was having kinda a mediocre day.  Imagine my change in attitude when I discovered I was "obscenely wealthy."

Funny thing is, my MAGA, Trump loving, anti-vaxer, covid denier sister-in-law once told my wife we make too much money.  Guess she was right after all.
Nice brag, mate. But it was pretty obvious given how defensive you've been. Just imagine how we feel if you feel like this even after making more than twice the median HOUSEHOLD income in the US.

Are you struggling to pay off your student loans?

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Offline stack

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2022, 08:09:40 PM »
It's almost like we should not reward idiots like this guy with free government money. It's amazing that the Dems would be so eager to give free money to a small portion of the population, thereby ensuring the rest are either neutral on the subject or enraged.

2017 Tax cuts (expiring 2025):

According to an analysis released by the Tax Policy Center (TPC) on Dec. 18, 2017, the law was expected to raise the after-tax income of 80.4% of households in 2018, but that cut was not distributed evenly or progressively. The analysis revealed that the tax break would hit 93.7% of taxpayers in the highest-earning quintile, and only 53.9% of those in the lowest quintile.
43
 Even so, on average, every quintile was expected to receive a tax break.

That is no longer expected to be true once individual tax cuts expire after 2025. At that point, the TPC estimates that the majority of taxpayers—53.4%—will face a tax increase: 69.7% of those in the middle quintile (40th to 60th percentile) will pay more, compared to just 8% of the highest-earning 0.1%.
44


If I'm reading that right, as far as the eagerness to give free money to a small portion of the population goes, it seems kinda weird that almost all in the smallest population reap the benefits whereas only half in the largest population will do the same. 

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2022, 09:03:18 PM »
You know.  I was having kinda a mediocre day.  Imagine my change in attitude when I discovered I was "obscenely wealthy."

Funny thing is, my MAGA, Trump loving, anti-vaxer, covid denier sister-in-law once told my wife we make too much money.  Guess she was right after all.
Nice brag, mate. But it was pretty obvious given how defensive you've been. Just imagine how we feel if you feel like this even after making more than twice the median HOUSEHOLD income in the US.

Are you struggling to pay off your student loans?

Not being defensive.  If someone wants to label me as wealthy that's fine.  Just having a little discussion.  Trying to figure out what Rushy believes being wealthy actually means.  That's why I asked him what he thinks a wealthy person can afford to do.  That to me is a more meaningful indicator than some arbitrary financial line.  I've actually never thought about where I'd draw the line as to what wealthy is.  Though I don't consider myself wealthy (to Rushy's point some will) I could perhaps be persuaded to change my perception.  I'm well aware of how nice I have it, and how fortunate I am to be where I'm at and if not wealthy I'm definitely comfortably well off. I'm a product of fortunate timing, some good luck, mostly good decisions, a decent work ethic, and a slight modicum of intelligence. 

I do find the idea that anyone making $40,000 a year in the U.S. is "wealthy" quite laughable and I'm quessing most others do as well.  If we're playing Family Feud and the question is "How much does someone have to make a year to be wealthy?" $40K isn't going to be on the board.  That being said, $125K might though I think the lowest answer would be higher.  $40K is about where my son's at and I can't wait to see his reaction when I tell him he's wealthy.  My other son is on his way to being obscenely wealthy but he's more around the median household level currently.  I'm guessing it will take him another 5+ years before he's obscenely wealthy.  He did have student loans which he paid off reasonably quickly.

I never had student loans.  Part of that fortunate timing and good luck thing.  I was able to work my way through school without having to borrow money to pay for it.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 09:10:30 PM by WTF_Yuppie »
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline rooster

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2022, 09:15:20 PM »
I never had student loans.  Part of that fortunate timing and good luck thing.  I was able to work my way through school without having to borrow money to pay for it
My other son is on his way to being obscenely wealthy but he's more around the median household level currently.  I'm guessing it will take him another 5+ years before he's obscenely wealthy.  He did have student loans which he paid off reasonably quickly.
Then I don't know why we're having this conversation.

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2022, 09:27:59 PM »
I never had student loans.  Part of that fortunate timing and good luck thing.  I was able to work my way through school without having to borrow money to pay for it
My other son is on his way to being obscenely wealthy but he's more around the median household level currently.  I'm guessing it will take him another 5+ years before he's obscenely wealthy.  He did have student loans which he paid off reasonably quickly.
Then I don't know why we're having this conversation.

Well, like I said, I was trying to figure out what Rushy's real view on wealth is.  The idea of what is considered wealth is an interesting concept.  I guess it is a digression from the topic at hand but the subject kinda came out of the discussion as sometime happens on forums and I'm fine with returning to lurking moar.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline rooster

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2022, 09:37:53 PM »
Well, like I said, I was trying to figure out what Rushy's real view on wealth is.  The idea of what is considered wealth is an interesting concept.  I guess it is a digression from the topic at hand but the subject kinda came out of the discussion as sometime happens on forums and I'm fine with returning to lurking moar.
If someone can pay off their student loans quickly then it likely means they are wealthy relatively speaking. It is pretty subjective, sure, but many many people are in debt for a long time with student loans and over half of the American population is one pay check away from being homeless.

We should not be getting hung up on this topic simply because you don't want to think you're wealthy when you're not even struggling with the literal topic of this thread. From the OP:
Should someone making $124k per year really get $10k of their debt paid off? Does it make sense to contribute so much aid towards the sector of America that is, in general, the most well off?
And I think we've answered that question.

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2022, 09:48:42 PM »
Should someone making $124k per year really get $10k of their debt paid off? Does it make sense to contribute so much aid towards the sector of America that is, in general, the most well off?
And I think we've answered that question.
Don't believe I've disagreed with that here.


Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline J-Man

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2022, 11:49:16 PM »
As a tax payer, my understanding is this will cost me $2000 easily till I die. Sole proprietor most my life working 50 years and still going. Been audited 3 times, 1 no change, fucker came to my office packing heat, what a bitch I thought after he threatened me he could audit me for 7 years at a drop of a hat. Other two, in the IRS office and they got their quota $2500 off me, but had the nerve to tell me "You're an honest man". Don't ever take earned income tax credit..totally auditable very high percentile.

Now this, shit I paid my kids college fees of $100K with blood, sweat and tears and a lotta help from a dead relatives inheritance.

The wife and I never had an adjusted gross over $70k combined in 45 years. Today I collect over $2400 in SS, so in that you know I paid my taxes.Wife has retirement and a nice SS, we still own our business and I guess I'm rich? No Debt...

Way to go Brandon and fuck you lazy bitchez.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2022, 12:17:03 AM »
You know.  I was having kinda a mediocre day.  Imagine my change in attitude when I discovered I was "obscenely wealthy."

Funny thing is, my MAGA, Trump loving, anti-vaxer, covid denier sister-in-law once told my wife we make too much money.  Guess she was right after all.
Nice brag, mate. But it was pretty obvious given how defensive you've been. Just imagine how we feel if you feel like this even after making more than twice the median HOUSEHOLD income in the US.

Are you struggling to pay off your student loans?

Not being defensive.  If someone wants to label me as wealthy that's fine.  Just having a little discussion.  Trying to figure out what Rushy believes being wealthy actually means.  That's why I asked him what he thinks a wealthy person can afford to do.  That to me is a more meaningful indicator than some arbitrary financial line.  I've actually never thought about where I'd draw the line as to what wealthy is.  Though I don't consider myself wealthy (to Rushy's point some will) I could perhaps be persuaded to change my perception.  I'm well aware of how nice I have it, and how fortunate I am to be where I'm at and if not wealthy I'm definitely comfortably well off. I'm a product of fortunate timing, some good luck, mostly good decisions, a decent work ethic, and a slight modicum of intelligence. 

I do find the idea that anyone making $40,000 a year in the U.S. is "wealthy" quite laughable and I'm quessing most others do as well.  If we're playing Family Feud and the question is "How much does someone have to make a year to be wealthy?" $40K isn't going to be on the board.  That being said, $125K might though I think the lowest answer would be higher.  $40K is about where my son's at and I can't wait to see his reaction when I tell him he's wealthy.  My other son is on his way to being obscenely wealthy but he's more around the median household level currently.  I'm guessing it will take him another 5+ years before he's obscenely wealthy.  He did have student loans which he paid off reasonably quickly.

I never had student loans.  Part of that fortunate timing and good luck thing.  I was able to work my way through school without having to borrow money to pay for it.

Ha ha, wife and I have a $1750 bar/food out budget monthly partying on the water dancing our asses off. Proper cash management, good home investing, 2 houses paid for, we live in both.... Your obscene, were just wealthy. laugh laugh I am the Jones....
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Biden is using American taxpayer money to pay off my loans
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2022, 05:49:45 AM »
Conservatives in the US are basically cartoon characters at this point. Helping the middle class with education costs is somehow worse than giving tax breaks to gazillion dollar corporations, which they probably hate anyway for their woke branding trends.