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Messages - WTF_Seriously

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361
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Moonrise-Moonset in northern lattitudes
« on: November 24, 2020, 12:46:58 AM »
Nov 30, 2020 - Full Moon

Moon appears to the North at its apex in Equator. Also rises and sets in the North.

https://www.mooncalc.org/#/0,-78.0469,2/2020.11.30/00:00/1/3



Thank you for that, Tom.  Always interested in learning.  I can see how I misinterpreted your two drawings as I try to further understand the FE model. And, admittedly, learn more about how things work.

362
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Moonrise-Moonset in northern lattitudes
« on: November 23, 2020, 11:33:20 PM »

When the Sun is in the South near the Tropic of Capricorn, the Full Moon is in the North near the Tropic of Cancer. The extreme North will see a Perpetual Full Moon.

When the Sun is in the North near the Tropic of Cancer, the Full Moon is in the South near the Tropic of Capricorn. The extreme North will not see the Full Moon rise or set throughout the day, as it is too far away.


I said I'd revisit this at the full moon.  Turns out I don't have to wait that long.  If Tom is correct, the moon would currently be north of 10 degrees latitude.  As such, a viewer at the equator today would need to look northward to see the rising moon.  As it turns out, an equitorial viewer needs to look south.

I had placed an Imgur image here but deleted it without thinking about the ramifications to my posts here.  Sorry for that



363
Flat Earth Theory / Solar noon drift
« on: November 23, 2020, 10:49:39 PM »
In researching a response to another post I ran across an unexpected interesting phenomenon.

"Solar noon occurs when the sun reaches its maximum height in the sky on any given day. At any location on Earth, the time of noon slowly oscillates back and forth by several minutes throughout the year (in other words, a sundial would not consistently show noon occurring at the same time as your wristwatch). These shifts are due to the earth’s elliptical (non-circular) orbit and axial tilt, and are summed up in a complex relationship called the equation of time (for simplicity, let’s call it the “solar noon effect”)." - https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/winter-solstice-marks-the-shortest-day-of-the-year-thursday-morning/2011/12/21/gIQANxaG9O_blog.html

With the Sun rotating about the north pole above a flat disc once a day, how does the FE model explain not only the oscillation of solar drift but the fact that solar noon drift occurs at all?

364
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Fun with 2-D orbital geometry
« on: November 23, 2020, 10:33:10 PM »
I apologize up front as this is rather lengthy

You are comparing two days when the first quarter moon occurred, and when the Moon passed over your meridian on that day. You need to find the exact time the first quarter moon occurred.


OK.  A little time to discuss this.

Tom is correct here.  My original post presented a static view of things when the situation is a dynamic one.  Though the original post was accurate with regards to the static case, the dynamics of the situation must be considered.

The original illustration is correct for one specific case; the one in which the previous new moon occurred at 3:00 in the sketch.  For a new moon which occurs at 3:00, the 1st quarter moon will appear as shown with the sun leading the 1st quarter moon by approximately 6:12:00 (6:12:30 is more accurate) as it passes the viewers meridian.

So now to the dynamics.  The moon lags the sun by 50 minutes every day (approximately 12.2 deg). At this point I'm going to switch to degrees rather than a clock in my discussion.  This leads to a time between new moons of 29.5 days.  RE and FE models both agree on this point.  If we now look at the 2-D geometry of the situation, we'll see this.  If we allow the original new moon to be at 0 degrees, with the viewer on the 0 degree meridian, this would mean that the next new moon would occur 29.5 days later which would put the second new moon at 180 degrees. 

This would then put the first quarter moon at 0 degrees,  sun at 90 degrees for the original 1st quarter and 180 degrees sun at 270 degrees for the second 1st quarter when the 1st quarter moon passes the preceding new moon meridian.

As my original post accurately stated, the time between the first solar noon and 1st quarter moon meridian crossing would be 6:12:30 each occurring at 0 degrees according to the FE model.  Now to the second 1st quarter moon.  The sun will cross the zero degree line of the viewer after traveling 90 degrees.  During this time, the moon will now lag 270 degrees by an additional 12:30.  As the sun rotates to 90 degrees the moon will have lost another 12:30.  Do the math and the second 1st quarter moon meridian crossing lags solar noon at the point of the viewer by a time in excess of 6:37:30.  If we think about the next lunar cycle we would expect the time to return to 6:12:30 as the new moon occurs back at 0 degrees.  At this time, I will admit that these times are approximations.  However, the observed data fall well outside of any possible error.

At first, I thought it might take awhile to find the proper data points.  Turns out I got lucky.  The city I've been using as my reference is Portland, OR.  As luck would have it, at the 1st quarter moon of Dec. 21, 2020 solar noon leads the lunar meridian crossing by 6:12:00.  The max error for this would be +/- 1 minute.  If the FE model is correct, this puts Portland at very near the location of the previous new moon. The FE model would then suggest that at the previous new moon of Dec. 14 we should see solar noon and lunar meridian crossing line up +/- 1 minute.  Turns out the difference is 10 minutes.  Problem 1 with the FE model.

Now let's look at the January 2021 1st quarter moon.  We would expect the crossings to differ by 6:37:30.  What we find is that they differ by 5:57.  Problem 2 with the FE model.

Now let's look at February 2021 1st quarter moon.  We would expect the crossings to return to 6:12:00.  What we find is that they differ by 5:59.

That's my analysis of the dynamic situation.  I fully leave open the possibility that it is flawed.  Would not be the 1st time I've made a fool of myself.  I look forward to the rebuttals.

365
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Questions regarding gravity
« on: November 22, 2020, 02:29:57 AM »

They don't believe in gravity. They believe in 'gravitation' cause by the earth accelerating 'upward'. They even have an explanation for not exceeding the speed of light. It's convenient that the direction of this acceleration is perpendicular to the 'plane' of the earth. Otherwise it would like the entire world was built on a hill. I'm not sure how they explain that the atmosphere (atomsplane?) doesn't get swept away, but I do know they will have an explanation.

There 'math' is a joke.  The try to present Lorentz transform as an equation that can be integrated.  It's a transform.   It relates one space to another.  It's doesn't work with calculus.  Also, it deals only with constant velocity bodies not acceleration.

366
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« on: November 21, 2020, 06:01:31 PM »

Has anyone explained the purpose of saying the earth is round if it's really flat. What is achieved by perpetuating the lie?

It's all a great conspiracy so governments all over the world can continue to fund all kinds of different  endeavors and keep the cash coming in or something like that.

367
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Fun with 2-D orbital geometry
« on: November 20, 2020, 05:15:11 AM »

I would need an additional piece of FE information to address this fully.  I think my point is independent of it,  but if I can include it as part of my discussion, I may be able to address your statement more accurately.  In the FE model, what is the longitudinal position of the sun and moon at the new moon?  I would assume 0 degrees but I would prefer your answer.

Tom,  as I thought more about how things work in FE theory I realized that this is a difficult question and can't expect you to answer it.  I will compose my thoughts in a separate post.

Edited to add: As I'm on vacation until after the holidays.  I may not have the free time to adequately respond to this until I return to work.  ;D

368
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Fun with 2-D orbital geometry
« on: November 19, 2020, 10:22:32 PM »
Thank you again for entering discussion, Tom.  You provide me with good insight to FE theory and force me to look at RE theory and discover misconceptions that I hold.


The Moon rises 50 minutes later than the Sun every day.

I don't think this is exactly what you meant to say or I simply misunderstand the statement.  Obviously we've all seen the moon rise at night.  Rising and setting is irrelevant to the discussion anyway.



You are comparing two days when the first quarter moon occurred, and when the Moon passed over your meridian on that day. You need to find the exact time the first quarter moon occurred.


I would need an additional piece of FE information to address this fully.  I think my point is independent of it,  but if I can include it as part of my discussion, I may be able to address your statement more accurately.  In the FE model, what is the longitudinal position of the sun and moon at the new moon?  I would assume 0 degrees but I would prefer your answer.

369
Flat Earth Theory / Fun with 2-D orbital geometry
« on: November 19, 2020, 09:20:02 PM »
The nice thing about FE theory is that it allows what would be a complicated 3-D discussion to be presented in a 2-D world.  2-D is much easier to comprehend and the math is often basic.

I apologize for starting several threads recently discussing the topic of lunar orbital phenomenon.  It's a discussion where "the documentation is fake" is usually of little use.

I created this for another topic:



The purpose was to illustrate the positions of the sun, moon, north pole, and a viewer on earth at the 1st quarter moon.  These relationships are constant regardless orbital radii of the sun and moon.  They can differ in any way and the 12:00-3:00 relationship will still hold true.  The FE model and 2-D geometry dictate it. The relationship is also the same regardless the viewer's position on earth.  What is also constant is the fact that the sun will lead the moon by a little over 6:12 at this time due to their differing orbital periods.

At the 1st quarter moon at my location on June 28, 2020 solar noon led lunar meridian crossing by 6:40.  At the upcoming 1st quarter moon on Nov. 12, 2020 solar noon will lead lunar meridian crossing by 6:20.  So, not only do the observable times differ from what the geometry dictates they also vary.  I specifically discuss solar noon and meridian crossing as they are the times when the sun and moon are directly south of the viewer so any effects of EA or refraction are negated.

How does FE theory explain these observed differences?

370
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Moonrise-Moonset in northern lattitudes
« on: November 19, 2020, 04:47:24 PM »

Quote
As you said, when it is Full Moon under the FE-EA Theory the Moon is furthest from the Sun in its lunar month circuit.

When the Sun is in the South near the Tropic of Capricorn, the Full Moon is in the North near the Tropic of Cancer. The extreme North will see a Perpetual Full Moon.




Let's assume for a moment this is always true.  So, the closer the full moon falls to the soltice the nearer the north pole it is.  It would lead then that the closer the full moon occurs to the solstice, the more days of perpetual moon we should have .  What we see though, doesn't correlate.

In 2018 at Prudhoe Bay, the full moon fell on Dec. 22.  There were two days of perpetual moon that month.  This year, the full moon falls on Dec. 29 yet there are 6 days of perpetual moon this year.

You can find any amount of data you want here: https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/usa/prudhoe-bay?month=12&year=2020

371
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Water is always level?
« on: November 19, 2020, 04:20:35 PM »


Sort of. The horizon is an optical illusion, and the edge of nothing but our vision.  Assuming mostly uniform weather / air conditions in our viewing "bubble"/sphere, the maximum distance we can see laterally is fixed/static and linear.

So the limit of our vision is variable depending upon altitude.

372
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Moonrise-Moonset in northern lattitudes
« on: November 18, 2020, 04:59:32 PM »
Here's what I'm referring to:

I had placed an Imgur image here but deleted it without thinking about the ramifications to my posts here.  Sorry for that



https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/phases/usa/prudhoe-bay

Simple explanation, rotating sphere with axial tilt and moon orbiting with an inclination of 5 degrees.

Not so simple explanation, flat earth with orbiting body that changes orbital radius and velocity significantly over the period of 27 days bound by the fact that even at it's elliptic of largest measured radius it can be viewed rising and setting.

Edited to add: I'm not patient enough to spend the time to think of every point that a post surfaces and include them all in the original post.  What is important to this moon calendar is that this phenomenon happens every month, not just at the soltices and that the all day-none moon cycles occur at different phases not just full and new throughout the year.

373
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Moonrise-Moonset in northern lattitudes
« on: November 18, 2020, 04:33:23 PM »
Thank you for the discussion, Tom.


When the Sun is in the South near the Tropic of Capricorn, the Full Moon is in the North near the Tropic of Cancer. The extreme North will see a Perpetual Full Moon.

When the Sun is in the North near the Tropic of Cancer, the Full Moon is in the South near the Tropic of Capricorn. The extreme North will not see the Full Moon rise or set throughout the day, as it is too far away.


These two statements are not completely accurate.  Everyone is familiar with the seasonal cycle of the Sun as it travels north-south over 365 days.  Fewer are familiar with the fact that the moon does the same thing except the N-S range is farther and the period is 18.6 years.  This is an observable and measured characteristic.  As such, the latitude of the lunar elliptic changes a little over 6 degrees a year not Cancer to Capricorn and back.

Even if they are true, they don't address the phenomenon I'm discussing.  The phenomenon is not seasonal.  It occurs every lunar cycle.  My second post is similar. It is a lunar cycle phenomenon not a seasonal one.  Edited from original post:  After reviewing Tom's post a little more, I would retract this statement if true.

"At higher latitudes, there will be a period of at least one day each month when the Moon does not rise, but there will also be a period of at least one day each month when the Moon does not set. This is similar to the seasonal behaviour of the Sun, but with a period of 27.2 days instead of 365 days."  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon

Edited to add:  I'll revisit this post at the full moon Nov. 30.  I will capture the image from the moon calendar for Quito, Ecuador.  Being on the equator, if what you're saying is true then the angle of the full moon would be to the North.  At the full moon I believe you will see that the angle will be sourthernly just as it is now.




374
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Moonrise-Moonset in northern lattitudes
« on: November 17, 2020, 05:46:02 PM »
I'll add a second post to this same subject which I struggle to find a FE explanation for.

The moon travels a path nearly along a constant lattitude as it completes an orbit.  This is a measureable property. This measurable property dictates that the distance from the moon to the north pole is nearly constant throughout its orbit. As alluded to in the original topic post, this would mean that the EA effect of the moon's reflection would be nearly constant throughout its orbit.

Is it possible to explain this North Pole phenomon:

"Near the new Moon phase, the Moon is near the Sun and therefore never rises during the winter. As the Moon approaches full, it will start to pop up above the horizon. Eventually near the full Moon phase it will be high enough in the sky to stay up all day and circle like the Sun in the video above. The elevation of the circle will rise as the Moon becomes completely full and then start to decrease until it begins to dip below the horizon. Eventually the Moon will stop rising at all as it gets close enough to the new phase. The cycle then repeats." - http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/our-solar-system/46-our-solar-system/the-moon/observing-the-moon/127-is-the-moon-always-visible-during-winter-on-the-north-pole-intermediate

with flat earth theory?  Again, the RE model explains this fairly easily.

375
Flat Earth Theory / Moonrise-Moonset in northern lattitudes
« on: November 17, 2020, 03:35:45 PM »
FET explains sunrise-sunset, moonrise-moonset with the theory of EA.  In addtion, EA is also given as the driver for the lunar phase cycle - https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Acceleration#Lunar_Phases

In the FE model, the sun is farthest away from the moon at the full moon.  At that time, the sun's rays are powerful enough to illuminate the moon.  This would mandate that at all phases of the lunar cycle, the sun's rays are powerful enough to illuminate the moon as empirical observation verifies. 

Also at this time, the moon is viewable from moonrise to moonset. This is true at every location on the earth plane.  Even at the extreme northern lattitudes a full moon can be witnessed.  What this observation means is that even when the EA effect is at its most extreme (object at its farthest viewing distance) the reflection of the sun's light off the moon can be witnessed.

This being the case, how does FET explain the fact that one day a month the moon doesn't rise in the extreme northern lattitudes.  The RE model explains this phenomenon quite easily.


Note:  In my orginal post I mistakenly typed UA instead of EA.  The post has been corrected.  My apologies for any confusion.

376
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Daytime/Nighttime half moon
« on: November 16, 2020, 08:59:56 PM »
thank you for that.

377
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Daytime/Nighttime half moon
« on: November 16, 2020, 08:30:46 PM »
Tom,

1st attempt to upload a picture.  Not sure if it will be successful.

Position of Sun, Moon, me and North Pole when looking down on a flat earth map from above.  These positions are constant for every 1st quarter moon.

378
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Daytime/Nighttime half moon
« on: November 16, 2020, 08:01:48 PM »
Tom,

Let me clarify my 12:00-3:00 reference as the position of 12:00 changes depending on where an observer is on the plane.  On the FE monopole map, longitude lines emit radially from the north pole.  Taking an observer closer to the pole than the equator, when the new moon passes the longitude line of the observer, the observer will be looking directly south with south being 3:00 from the pole and the sun being at 12:00.

I apologize for having to use a round earth model for number purposes but the general idea remains the same.  Using a RE map, and I'll use rough locations since it's difficult to pin an exact longitude from a representative world map.

At Los Angeles.  New Moon at approx. 120 deg. W sun at approx. 150 deg E.
At Tokyo. New Moon at approx. 140 deg. E. sun at approx. 50 deg. E.
At Greenwich.  New Moon at 0 deg. sun at 90 deg. W

The point being, that at each location, the new moon-sun relationship doesn't change.  It can't in a FE model.  As such, the ambient light surrounding a new moon, be it some shade of light or dark, must remain constant for every new moon at that location.  You can't have a both a day 1st quarter and night 1st quarter at Los Angeles since the sun and moon will always be in the same location relative to L.A.

379
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Daytime/Nighttime half moon
« on: November 16, 2020, 07:34:00 PM »
Thank you for responding again.

Unless the Moon is directly at the position of the Sun there should always be an area in the Moon's reach which overlaps with night.

Can you draw a picture to explain what you mean?

I would furnish a picture but I'm not familiar with uploading to the forum at the moment so let me elaborate and maybe state my point a little better.  I believe the WIKI map is enough to illustrate my point.

You are correct.  Under FE theory, there will always be an area in the Moon's reach with overlaps with night.  I don't debate that FE interpretation.  As I stated, in FE theory, the relationship to a specific point on earth, the Sun, and the 1st quarter moon is fixed every cycle.  The sun leads the moon by 90 degrees and they are on equal plane.  With the north pole as the center of the orbit, if we designate the sun at 12:00 then the first quarter moon sits at 3:00 as we look away from the plane regardless where on the plane a person is located.  This relationship is true every new moon.

As you state, at that exact point and time, the moon will be visible in varying degrees of daylight at other locations on the plane, but for a specific point on the plane, the ambient light must be identical for every 1st quarter moon viewed from that location.  This is fixed because the relationship of the three points are fixed.

380
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Daytime/Nighttime half moon
« on: November 16, 2020, 03:21:26 PM »
Draw a moon somewhere in the middle of that side view diagram, and then draw descending curving lines away from it like the Sun in EA. Some of those Moon rays will end up on the daylight side, and some on the night side.

Thank you for your reply, Tom.

I'll specifically talk about the 1st quarter moon which can be viewed both in daylight and dark.

If we allow the sun's orbit to be described as a clock, when looking away from the earth in the diagram the 1st quarter moon will always appear at 3:00 with the sun always being at 12:00.  This is always the orientation of the 1st quarter moon for the FE orbits to be accurate, always.  This being the case, drawing a moon somewhere else on the diagram is irrelevant to the 1st quarter moon's position to a viewer on the earth.  The relationship of viewer, moon, and sun is always the same.  As such, the light reflecting off of the moon at the time of the 1st quarter moon always travels the same direction.  Therefore, the 1st quarter moon must appear the same in relationship to ambient light at the time it's viewed.

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