Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #220 on: April 20, 2014, 05:57:20 AM »
The reality is that there will never be another large war with a developed nation. Too many nations with nuclear bombs that are more willing to turn themselves and others into smoking craters before giving up any land. Conventional weapons will only ever be used against countries that probably couldn't defend against any technology past the Cold War and that have no nuclear weaponry. Lockheed should just manufacture updated F-16s, rather than mugging the government for more money. Any country the F-22 and F-35 is useful against would never have a F-22 or F-35 used against them.

Not really. We're replacing our entire Hornet and Super Hornet fleet with F-35's. So any conflict in which the RAAF fights will be fought with F-35's.

I also disagree with there not being another war between major powers. Such a war is unlikely, but not impossible. I don't think nuclear weapons prevent the chance of a conflict, they're more of a "we have ours so they don't use theirs thing"; they only exist to prevent their use.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 06:00:41 AM by Vindictus »

Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #221 on: April 20, 2014, 11:35:10 AM »
Ukraine wasn't part of NATO and hardly counts as a developed nation, their hardware is still Cold War era.

LOL

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Offline Rushy

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Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #222 on: April 20, 2014, 02:54:43 PM »
I highly doubt that any country would use a nuke again. We all know the outcome of a nuclear explosion and I would be willing to bet that those in power are smart enough to know how tegu would be treated if they ever did use a nuke. The idea of a country using nukes is a little boys dream of power and a nationalist mentality. Politically, nukes are a bad idea. If someone in power knew they would loose it all with a nuke, they wouldn't risk it. Especially not America.

This is why nukes will be used and also why they will not be used. There will never be a conventional war between developed nations ever again, because a nation on the verge of losing a conventional war would always nuke the attacking country.

If NATO attacked Russia right now, Russia would attempt to nuke both the EU and US, because Russia would be well aware it cannot win a conventional war with NATO. The choices are "Russia loses with a bang" or "Russia loses." It isn't hard to know which one a country as insane as Russia will choose.

Not really. We're replacing our entire Hornet and Super Hornet fleet with F-35's. So any conflict in which the RAAF fights will be fought with F-35's.

I also disagree with there not being another war between major powers. Such a war is unlikely, but not impossible. I don't think nuclear weapons prevent the chance of a conflict, they're more of a "we have ours so they don't use theirs thing"; they only exist to prevent their use.

Nuclear weapons prevent your country from ever losing a war ever again. "Oh, you are defeating our nation and crumbling our power? Nuke."
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 02:57:41 PM by Irushwithscvs »

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Offline markjo

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Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #223 on: April 21, 2014, 12:54:15 PM »
It has a smaller cannon with less rounds, and it flies faster and can't loiter as long, but it's more than capable of carrying the missiles used against tanks (which are the most effective anti-tank weapons anyway).
I don't think that you understand how the ground support role works.
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Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #224 on: April 21, 2014, 02:25:47 PM »
Nuclear weapons prevent your country from ever losing a war ever again. "Oh, you are defeating our nation and crumbling our power? Nuke."

I doubt it. How is this enemy supposedly defeating our nation? Using land forces? And those land forces are already storming the chancellery are they? So you're going to drop a nuke on your own country?

What you probably have in mind is that the awesome power will make the men in pinstripes back in Blefuscu want to pull back their forces. This places great weight on the assumed rationality of the enemy. After you've just nuked them.

Japan had already lost the war when it was nuked. Nuclear weapons are just the execution move in a bleak real world game of Mortal Combat.

But don't let me stop your wank fantasy.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #225 on: April 21, 2014, 03:55:59 PM »
Nuclear weapons prevent your country from ever losing a war ever again. "Oh, you are defeating our nation and crumbling our power? Nuke."

I doubt it. How is this enemy supposedly defeating our nation? Using land forces? And those land forces are already storming the chancellery are they? So you're going to drop a nuke on your own country?

What you probably have in mind is that the awesome power will make the men in pinstripes back in Blefuscu want to pull back their forces. This places great weight on the assumed rationality of the enemy. After you've just nuked them.

Japan had already lost the war when it was nuked. Nuclear weapons are just the execution move in a bleak real world game of Mortal Combat.

But don't let me stop your wank fantasy.
No, he's saying that its a "I'm a sore loser so we both lose" button.
The guys who run the country currently invading you are going to get a face full of nuclear death.  At that point it doesn't matter what happens to the invaded nation and they know it.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #226 on: April 21, 2014, 04:04:03 PM »
At that point it doesn't matter what happens to the invaded nation and they know it.

Still doesn't sound like a good way to "prevent your country from ever losing a war ever again".

Ghost of V

Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #227 on: April 21, 2014, 04:52:54 PM »
At that point it doesn't matter what happens to the invaded nation and they know it.

Still doesn't sound like a good way to "prevent your country from ever losing a war ever again".

This whole conversation is the basis for deterrence theory.

Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #228 on: April 21, 2014, 05:04:16 PM »
This whole conversation is the basis for what happened to flight MH370.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #229 on: April 21, 2014, 06:11:41 PM »
At that point it doesn't matter what happens to the invaded nation and they know it.

Still doesn't sound like a good way to "prevent your country from ever losing a war ever again".
Yes it is.  Do you really want to fight the guy who can kill you even if he loses?

" Let the wookie win."
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Ghost of V

Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #230 on: April 21, 2014, 06:17:21 PM »
At that point it doesn't matter what happens to the invaded nation and they know it.

Still doesn't sound like a good way to "prevent your country from ever losing a war ever again".
Yes it is.  Do you really want to fight the guy who can kill you even if he loses?

" Let the wookie win."

That doesn't prevent a country from losing a war, it just creates a Cold War environment of "Who's going to launch first". Even so, if one country does launch a nuke will the other country have enough balls to launch theirs and potentially start a nuclear war?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #231 on: April 21, 2014, 07:48:44 PM »
At that point it doesn't matter what happens to the invaded nation and they know it.

Still doesn't sound like a good way to "prevent your country from ever losing a war ever again".
Yes it is.  Do you really want to fight the guy who can kill you even if he loses?

" Let the wookie win."

That doesn't prevent a country from losing a war, it just creates a Cold War environment of "Who's going to launch first". Even so, if one country does launch a nuke will the other country have enough balls to launch theirs and potentially start a nuclear war?
Balls has nothing to do with it.  It's more like "Fuck it, if I die, he dies with me".
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #232 on: April 21, 2014, 08:40:22 PM »
Do you really want to fight the guy who can kill you even if he loses?

If you're psycho enough to use nukes when you've lost then you're probably psycho enough to use them when you're winning. Either way I have to assume you'll use them.

Its a prisoners dilemma and you get to choose from Win-Lose or Lose-Lose. In neither of the options do you get to win.

Ghost of V

Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #233 on: April 21, 2014, 08:50:36 PM »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #234 on: April 21, 2014, 10:22:22 PM »
Do you really want to fight the guy who can kill you even if he loses?

If you're psycho enough to use nukes when you've lost then you're probably psycho enough to use them when you're winning. Either way I have to assume you'll use them.

Its a prisoners dilemma and you get to choose from Win-Lose or Lose-Lose. In neither of the options do you get to win.
That's the point.
The only way to win a nuclear war is to not have one.  And the only way to not START a nuclear war is to not attack anyone with nukes.

See how that works?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #235 on: April 21, 2014, 10:29:52 PM »
It has a smaller cannon with less rounds, and it flies faster and can't loiter as long, but it's more than capable of carrying the missiles used against tanks (which are the most effective anti-tank weapons anyway).
I don't think that you understand how the ground support role works.

Helicopters are better at CAS than jets are anyway.

Ghost of V

Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #236 on: April 21, 2014, 10:30:39 PM »
The only way to win a nuclear war is to not have one.  And the only way to not START a nuclear war is to not attack anyone with nukes.

See how that works?

Of course, makes you wonder why we still have nukes? At this point it seems like the reason for this is because we need a deterrent against other country's nukes. It's a stupid vicious cycle. The obvious answer is to just get rid of all the fucking nukes, but one country will have to step up and do it first before others follow their example, until then we'll just keep making nukes to keep nukes in check, which is just retarded.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #237 on: April 21, 2014, 10:40:36 PM »
The only winning move is not to play.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #238 on: April 22, 2014, 12:35:02 AM »
The only way to win a nuclear war is to not have one.  And the only way to not START a nuclear war is to not attack anyone with nukes.

See how that works?

Of course, makes you wonder why we still have nukes? At this point it seems like the reason for this is because we need a deterrent against other country's nukes. It's a stupid vicious cycle. The obvious answer is to just get rid of all the fucking nukes, but one country will have to step up and do it first before others follow their example, until then we'll just keep making nukes to keep nukes in check, which is just retarded.

The problem with this logic is that if one person just happens to have a nuke everyone's gonna be scared of him.

Let's say there's a sweeping UN regulation that all nukes must be destroyed.  Every country with nukes pours all their resources into eradicating it and even Superman comes from nowhere and takes them to the sun.  World peace right?

Oh look, Iran managed to secretly build an ICBM.
They are now the most powerful country in the world. 
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Ghost of V

Re: What happened to flight MH370?
« Reply #239 on: April 22, 2014, 12:58:50 AM »
Oh look, Iran managed to secretly build an ICBM.
They are now the most powerful country in the world.

Damn you, Albert Einstein.