The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: jimster on July 08, 2019, 01:53:04 AM

Title: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: jimster on July 08, 2019, 01:53:04 AM
Mathematically, if one knows the distances between known locations, one can fit them to a surface and produce an accurate map.

But what will FE take as thise distances?

Can we use Google, mapquest, bing, etc?

If not, how can we determine those distances?

I need several landmarks spaced hundreds of miles apart and their distances. How to get?

For instance, Stockholm, Paris, Cairo, Moscow. What are the distances between these cities? Can I use the Google/bing/mapquest distances?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: Tumeni on July 08, 2019, 07:18:22 AM
You could repeat Norwood's method of the 1600s, and take a 'chain' of known length. Walk between the two cities you select, stretching the chain, one length at a time, counting the number of chains between the two cities, and making allowances for gradient as you go.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 08, 2019, 10:35:50 AM
I believe AATW had started to do this. Suprisngly I've seen many flat earther dispute even manual methods of measurement for long distances. Even rejecting the notion that a bicycle could be used effectively as measuring wheels. if measuring wheels aren't trusted I doubt much else would be accepted, which would leave flat earthers dead in the water with any attempt at mapping the world.

Or they can just accept that google maps is accurate and use that, since it's used by millions eery day to nagivate albeit mostly short distances, it's safe to assume it's accuracy. I used google maps to nagivate lands end to john o groats by bicycle and had equipment on my bike to determine how many miles I'd gone, which confirmed google with a certain margin. However lands end to john o groats is a distance of longitude more than latitude and less of a problem for a flat earth in the northern hemisphere. I haven't had the time off work to travel across Europe by bicycle this year which is sad, but other people have done it suprisingly with no real navigation issues.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 08, 2019, 05:11:15 PM
Mathematically, if one knows the distances between known locations, one can fit them to a surface and produce an accurate map.

But what will FE take as thise distances?

Can we use Google, mapquest, bing, etc?

If not, how can we determine those distances?

I need several landmarks spaced hundreds of miles apart and their distances. How to get?

For instance, Stockholm, Paris, Cairo, Moscow. What are the distances between these cities? Can I use the Google/bing/mapquest distances?

Making a map which is accepted by 80% of the flat earth community is totally impossible. Anyone such as myself who believes there is no ice wall will reject any map that has an ice wall and visa versa. If 55% of the community believes there is an ice wall and 45% believe there is not the best you can possibly do is 55% which is unreasonable.

Even among the 55% who believe there is an ice wall you could put the north pole in the middle which would eliminate the biblical view that something like Zion or Jerusalem is in the center.

Would the ice wall map have an edge or be infinite? If you are talking about finite flat disk model with an ice wall, no dome, and no firmament, and the north pole in the center I would guess that only 30% of the FE community would accept that model.

Before even starting to discuss distances which will be heavily disputed (with each individual accepting the distances which support their own model while rejecting distances which weaken their own model) why don't we just start with the continents and their locations. For example North America is North of South America. China and Russia are in Asia. Etc.

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 08, 2019, 07:48:19 PM
iamcpc, if you're already willing to reject any findings of a map that doesn't conform with your belief you've already failed at science in general.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 08, 2019, 09:17:15 PM
iamcpc, if you're already willing to reject any findings of a map that doesn't conform with your belief you've already failed at science in general.

Wow.

It's my belief that the Canada is North of the United States.  I've personally traveled North and reached Canada with over 40 people who all corroborated the direction of travel and final location. We tracked landmarks on the way. At the end of the journey, when we arrived in Canada, 100% of people who took the trip with me agreed that Canada is North of the United states.

I spoke with about 2 dozen other people who have been to Canada but didn't travel there with me. They all corroborated that Canada is North of the United States.

I've also been to several states along the East Coast. Although with a smaller group. Again corroborating travel through dozens of methods. There is a MASSIVE body of water all along the East coast of the United States.

My willingness to reject a map which shows that Canada to the East of the United States is a rejection of science???
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 08, 2019, 09:33:44 PM
To iam's point, I do think it's impossible to create an agreed on, even partially, accurate FE map embraced by the community.

If the first step is to lay out where the continents/countries are, where do you start? With the most common FE layout, the AE/Gleason type with the N.Pole at the center? It's been done. Then you apply google/bing/yahoo map distances to, especially the southern hemiplane, and what do you get? Wildly incorrect distances. So then the FE claim is that the google/bing/yahoo map distances are incorrect with no other easy way for an FE to measure the distances by themselves. So where are we then? Back to square one.

There's a reason there is no FE map which should be pretty clear at this point.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 08, 2019, 11:27:54 PM
iamcpc, if you're already willing to reject any findings of a map that doesn't conform with your belief you've already failed at science in general.

Wow.

It's my belief that the Canada is North of the United States.  I've personally traveled North and reached Canada with over 40 people who all corroborated the direction of travel and final location. We tracked landmarks on the way. At the end of the journey, when we arrived in Canada, 100% of people who took the trip with me agreed that Canada is North of the United states.

I spoke with about 2 dozen other people who have been to Canada but didn't travel there with me. They all corroborated that Canada is North of the United States.

I've also been to several states along the East Coast. Although with a smaller group. Again corroborating travel through dozens of methods. There is a MASSIVE body of water all along the East coast of the United States.

My willingness to reject a map which shows that Canada to the East of the United States is a rejection of science???
No you seemed to have blown over where I said "findings"... as you've obviously been 'finding' that Canada is north of America it would be a rejection of a collaborative effort to say Canada is to the east because of some belief one may have. That would the failure of science; rejecting the findings that Canada is in fact north of America.

If for example someone said Canada is east of America because the bible said so or something like that, that would be to reject findings based on a belief. What you said earlier is along those lines. At least your pacman map is a closer to the supposed shape of the earth than a disk map even if you have misunderstood it.

People saying they reject actual measurements because they already have a set mind that the earth is a disk are doing something wrong... That's the point I'm making. Come at it with a clear, non biased point of view and you may find that measurements, may lead you to finding the earth to be a globe~ But don't reject said findings if it's not flat.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 08, 2019, 11:58:05 PM


iamcpc, if you're already willing to reject any findings of a map that doesn't conform with your belief you've already failed at science in general.

No you seemed to have blown over where I said "findings"


ok then i'll rephrase my response



It's my belief that the Canada is North of the United States.  I've personally traveled North and reached Canada with over 40 people who all corroborated the direction of travel and final location. We tracked landmarks on the way. At the end of the journey, when we arrived in Canada, 100% of people who took the trip with me agreed that Canada is North of the United states.

I spoke with about 2 dozen other people who have been to Canada but didn't travel there with me. They all corroborated that Canada is North of the United States.

I've also been to several states along the East Coast. Although with a smaller group. Again corroborating travel through dozens of methods. There is a MASSIVE body of water all along the East coast of the United States.

My willingness to reject a map which in which someone else's findings show that Canada is East of the United States is a rejection of science???
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 09, 2019, 12:45:54 AM


iamcpc, if you're already willing to reject any findings of a map that doesn't conform with your belief you've already failed at science in general.

No you seemed to have blown over where I said "findings"


ok then i'll rephrase my response



It's my belief that the Canada is North of the United States.  I've personally traveled North and reached Canada with over 40 people who all corroborated the direction of travel and final location. We tracked landmarks on the way. At the end of the journey, when we arrived in Canada, 100% of people who took the trip with me agreed that Canada is North of the United states.

I spoke with about 2 dozen other people who have been to Canada but didn't travel there with me. They all corroborated that Canada is North of the United States.

I've also been to several states along the East Coast. Although with a smaller group. Again corroborating travel through dozens of methods. There is a MASSIVE body of water all along the East coast of the United States.

My willingness to reject a map which in which someone else's findings show that Canada is East of the United States is a rejection of science???
No, but you're immediately assuming anyone elses findings will show canada as east? Why are you already assuming anything anyone else comes up with is incorrect before they've come up with it? I'm under the assumption that if you measure things out correctly you will more than likely find that the map is layed out in such a way that can only be on a globe, because humans have already mapped out the world and we travel using said maps with no problems (short of reading the map wrong or making a wrong turn but hey that's not the maps fault).

I know already what you have accepted as a visually accurate map, and that's the bing map but correct me if I'm wrong. If you map out the world you'll see the bing map is represented stretched. What will you do when you find out that Canada is more stretched on your map than your findings will show? Will you reject your findings or will you come to the conclusion that the northern hemesphere stretches the further north you go?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3745016/Our-world-maps-WRONG-Countries-nearer-poles-distorted-appear-bigger-are.html
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 09, 2019, 12:53:35 AM
Here's how the Bing map (and other Mercator projection maps) come to be and hence the distortion:

(https://i.imgur.com/u6w8LKJ.gif)
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 09, 2019, 01:09:29 AM
I know already what you have accepted as a visually accurate map, and that's the bing map but correct me if I'm wrong. If you map out the world you'll see the bing map is represented stretched. What will you do when you find out that Canada is more stretched on your map than your findings will show? Will you reject your findings or will you come to the conclusion that the northern hemesphere stretches the further north you go?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3745016/Our-world-maps-WRONG-Countries-nearer-poles-distorted-appear-bigger-are.html

This thread is about making a FE map. Unfortunately, based on each person's individual findings, there is a lot of discrepancy about the position/location of the continents.

There is discrepancy, based on each individual's findings,  about the existence of things like a great ice wall or firmament.

We are not even to the Area of the nations, how "stretched out" they are,  what projection the map may, or may not, be based on etc etc.

A fundamental first step towards making a FE map is agreeing on the general location of the continents/countries. Is there a great ice wall? Because it there is it should be on the map. Is there a South pole? Is there a North pole?

I am of the believe, based on my findings, that there is a North pole and a South pole.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 09, 2019, 01:51:42 AM
I know already what you have accepted as a visually accurate map, and that's the bing map but correct me if I'm wrong. If you map out the world you'll see the bing map is represented stretched. What will you do when you find out that Canada is more stretched on your map than your findings will show? Will you reject your findings or will you come to the conclusion that the northern hemesphere stretches the further north you go?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3745016/Our-world-maps-WRONG-Countries-nearer-poles-distorted-appear-bigger-are.html

This thread is about making a FE map. Unfortunately, based on each person's individual findings, there is a lot of discrepancy about the position/location of the continents.

To your point there is a great discrepancy about the position/location of the continents for FE. But should there be? I mean we're literally talking about the position/location of the continents. Is that really up for debate? Kind of a rhetorical question, but one that has always mystified me about the FE movement.

The problem is that FE can't seem to put the continents/countries where everyone else on the planet knows where they are. I mean we have planetary transport of goods and humans on a daily basis that needs to know where such things are in order to get the job done. Yet there is still a discrepancy? Mind boggling.

So enter the realm of, "ok, let's create an FE map." Then a multitude of FE continental layouts get tossed into the pot and no one of the FE nor RE side can make any sense of them. If a flat earth, a flat earth map should be easy, 1 to 1. No projections, no distortions, etc. But to date, it can't be done. Because no one in FE can agree on a continental/country layout and when they do, it blows up distance-wise with what is observed/reported reality.

So I don't know where that leaves the effort of creating an accurate FE map. But as I've contended all along, no accurate FE map, no FE.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: TomInAustin on July 09, 2019, 02:59:52 PM
Mathematically, if one knows the distances between known locations, one can fit them to a surface and produce an accurate map.

But what will FE take as thise distances?

Can we use Google, mapquest, bing, etc?

If not, how can we determine those distances?

I need several landmarks spaced hundreds of miles apart and their distances. How to get?

For instance, Stockholm, Paris, Cairo, Moscow. What are the distances between these cities? Can I use the Google/bing/mapquest distances?

Of course, you can use these distances, people use Google maps every day to accurately travel.   I started a project just like this last year or so and plotted known distances using intersections of the circles to place points.   It works well in the northern hemisphere but as soon as you add southern points it breaks down.  I didn't take it any further than a few points due to lack of interest.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: AATW on July 09, 2019, 03:03:37 PM
I believe AATW had started to do this.
I had a go but I did make a mistake. A couple of mistakes actually.
One was I used the miles between places as the diameter of the circles I was drawing when I should have used that as the radius.
That mistake actually didn't matter though, it just meant the scale was half what I intended.
The second mistake was I used the wrong value for one of my circles. I'll be honest and admit that when I corrected that mistake the circles were closer to aligning at the 4th place although they didn't match perfectly. I could have another go with 4 other cities, maybe the fact I chose cities arranged roughly like a 5 of diamonds meant there was less difference between a globe and a flat plane.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: TomInAustin on July 09, 2019, 03:57:14 PM
I believe AATW had started to do this.
I had a go but I did make a mistake. A couple of mistakes actually.
One was I used the miles between places as the diameter of the circles I was drawing when I should have used that as the radius.
That mistake actually didn't matter though, it just meant the scale was half what I intended.
The second mistake was I used the wrong value for one of my circles. I'll be honest and admit that when I corrected that mistake the circles were closer to aligning at the 4th place although they didn't match perfectly. I could have another go with 4 other cities, maybe the fact I chose cities arranged roughly like a 5 of diamonds meant there was less difference between a globe and a flat plane.


Here are a few shots of my attempt.

The first one is in my backyard,  Austin, Houston, and Dallas.   It looks very similar to a triangle placed on Google Earth

(https://snag.gy/3aUd46.jpg)

The 2nd one starts to fail a bit, NYC, Mexico City, and Paris.  The lack of curvature flattens out the triangle.

(https://snag.gy/eOfcFA.jpg)

3.  Rio, Moscow, and Sydney.  The angles are obviously wrong.

(https://snag.gy/9LxKrQ.jpg)

3a.  Add Johannesburg to the mix and the problems are even more obvious.

(https://snag.gy/gnFmcj.jpg)
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 09, 2019, 04:29:48 PM

The problem is that FE can't seem to put the continents/countries where everyone else on the planet knows where they are. I mean we have planetary transport of goods and humans on a daily basis that needs to know where such things are in order to get the job done. Yet there is still a discrepancy?

I am of the opinion, based on my findings and real life observations that a map of the earth already exists so any posts about making a map are pointless.

The map i'm talking about is widely accepted by hundreds of millions of people as a map of the earth. It's rejected by a vast majority of the FE community because of things like:

-It has a north pole.
-It has a south pole.
-It has no ice wall.
-It has no dome.
-It has no firmament.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 09, 2019, 06:19:14 PM

The problem is that FE can't seem to put the continents/countries where everyone else on the planet knows where they are. I mean we have planetary transport of goods and humans on a daily basis that needs to know where such things are in order to get the job done. Yet there is still a discrepancy?

I am of the opinion, based on my findings and real life observations that a map of the earth already exists so any posts about making a map are pointless.

The map i'm talking about is widely accepted by hundreds of millions of people as a map of the earth. It's rejected by a vast majority of the FE community because of things like:

-It has a north pole.
-It has a south pole.
-It has no ice wall.
-It has no dome.
-It has no firmament.

Those are not the only problems with your preferred map from an FE perspective: Your preferred map is a globe projection meaning all distances and continental/country layout are based upon a spherical earth.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 09, 2019, 06:40:02 PM
Those are not the only problems with your preferred map from an FE perspective: Your preferred map is a globe projection meaning all distances and continental/country layout are based upon a spherical earth.

1. That's not true. Tom has said many times that the map I prefer is not a globe projection.
2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?
3. I've presented that map and gotten feedback from the FE community and not one single person said that they have a problem with my preferred map because it is a globe, sphere, or oblate spheroid projection.
4. It does not matter if people believe a globe projection, sphere projection, oblate spheroid projection, Cube projection, egg projection, flat disk projection, or any other projection. It depicts the earth as a flat 2d plane.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: inquisitive on July 09, 2019, 07:17:05 PM
Those are not the only problems with your preferred map from an FE perspective: Your preferred map is a globe projection meaning all distances and continental/country layout are based upon a spherical earth.

1. That's not true. Tom has said many times that the map I prefer is not a globe projection.
2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?
3. I've presented that map and gotten feedback from the FE community and not one single person said that they have a problem with my preferred map because it is a globe, sphere, or oblate spheroid projection.
4. It does not matter if people believe a globe projection, sphere projection, oblate spheroid projection, Cube projection, egg projection, flat disk projection, or any other projection. It depicts the earth as a flat 2d plane.
But what do measured distances give us for the shape of the earth?  Which are used to produce maps.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 09, 2019, 07:45:40 PM
Those are not the only problems with your preferred map from an FE perspective: Your preferred map is a globe projection meaning all distances and continental/country layout are based upon a spherical earth.

1. That's not true. Tom has said many times that the map I prefer is not a globe projection.

It is true, Tom is incorrect:

"Bing Maps Tile System
Map Projection

To make the map seamless, and to ensure that aerial images from different sources line up properly, we have to use a single projection for the entire world. We chose to use the Mercator projection.

To simplify the calculations, we use the spherical form of this projection, not the ellipsoidal form. Since the projection is used only for map display, and not for displaying numeric coordinates, we don’t need the extra precision of an ellipsoidal projection. The spherical projection causes approximately 0.33% scale distortion in the Y direction, which is not visually noticeable.
"

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/bingmaps/articles/bing-maps-tile-system

2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?

Well all of the 'FE' maps are, in fact, globe projections, from the AE (mono-pole) to the Lambert (Bi-pole) and everything inbetween. The OP is about how to make an FE map because one does not exist.

3. I've presented that map and gotten feedback from the FE community and not one single person said that they have a problem with my preferred map because it is a globe, sphere, or oblate spheroid projection.

If the FE community doesn't have a problem with maps being globe projections then I guess they don't have a problem with the irony of it: FEr's using and displaying maps based upon a spherical earth.

4. It does not matter if people believe a globe projection, sphere projection, oblate spheroid projection, Cube projection, egg projection, flat disk projection, or any other projection. It depicts the earth as a flat 2d plane.

Yes it does matter. I'm confused as to why this is perpetually lost on you. How the flat 2D plane maps come to be is by flattening a globe. Get it, a globe.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: TomInAustin on July 09, 2019, 08:15:29 PM
Those are not the only problems with your preferred map from an FE perspective: Your preferred map is a globe projection meaning all distances and continental/country layout are based upon a spherical earth.

1. That's not true. Tom has said many times that the map I prefer is not a globe projection.
2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?
3. I've presented that map and gotten feedback from the FE community and not one single person said that they have a problem with my preferred map because it is a globe, sphere, or oblate spheroid projection.
4. It does not matter if people believe a globe projection, sphere projection, oblate spheroid projection, Cube projection, egg projection, flat disk projection, or any other projection. It depicts the earth as a flat 2d plane.

The point is that a flat map is not possible using long known and accurate distances between points.   It is not possible to lay it out.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 09, 2019, 08:21:37 PM
It is true, Tom is incorrect:

Your original point was that the FE community would reject Bing maps because you claim that is a projection of a Globe. I'm presenting evidence that the FE community has NOT rejected Bing as a FE map because it is a projection of a globe.





Well all of the 'FE' maps are, in fact, globe projections, from the AE (mono-pole) to the Lambert (Bi-pole) and everything inbetween. The OP is about how to make an FE map because one does not exist.


2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?

See above. Why even bother talking about a FE map if, based on your findings, EVERY map is a globe map.


If the FE community doesn't have a problem with maps being globe projections then I guess they don't have a problem with the irony of it: FEr's using and displaying maps based upon a spherical earth.

The FE response i've gotten, in regards to globe projection, was either silence or a disagreement with the idea that Bing maps is a globe projection. So your claim that the FE community would reject a map because, based on your research, it's a globe projection is incorrect.

Yes it does matter. I'm confused as to why this is perpetually lost on you. How the flat 2D plane maps come to be is by flattening a globe. Get it, a globe.

Well here we can just agree to disagree. Any map presented you will claim is a map of a globe. With that kind of mentality that EVERY map is a globe map then why even bother posting on these threads about making a non globe map? You will just say it's a globe map.




The point is that a flat map is not possible using long known and accurate distances between points.   It is not possible to lay it out.

What's wrong with Bing maps?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 09, 2019, 08:25:19 PM
iamcpc, first, check my sig for more info about Tom.

Secondly, you only need to do one test to know that the Bing map is a globe projection and thus making the earth a globe;

Step one, go far north or far south (north canada or australia for example) and measure out a distance from east to west between two well known landarks you can spot on the Bing map.

Step two, go to the equator and do the same thing.

Step three, take a look at those two locations on the Bing map while fully zoomed out and compare the distance visually. and see how much of a discrepancy you find. For example if the two places you measured were 40 miles across, you'll see that the one in the north or south of the world will look longer on the Bing map.

Step four, do step three but on google earth and see that there more than likely wont be a discrepancy.

Do you agree? If not, I would say give it a go. By doing this you'll more than likely find out that the Bing map is a projection from a globe. If you do this while using the flat disk map instead of Bing, you'll find the southern hemesphere stretches a lot more because the northern hemesphere is pitching to the middle instead (well pitching probably isn't the right word).
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 09, 2019, 08:53:31 PM
It is true, Tom is incorrect:

Your original point was that the FE community would reject Bing maps because you claim that is a projection of a Globe. I'm presenting evidence that the FE community has NOT rejected Bing as a FE map because it is a projection of a globe.

No, your original point was that Tom said your preferred map is not a globe projection. I and Microsoft say that is not true. And if the FE community is ok with using maps that are based on a globe, good for them. Though it is ironic.

Well all of the 'FE' maps are, in fact, globe projections, from the AE (mono-pole) to the Lambert (Bi-pole) and everything inbetween. The OP is about how to make an FE map because one does not exist.

2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?

See above. Why even bother talking about a FE map if, based on your findings, EVERY map is a globe map.

No again. It's not a matter of claiming anything. Microsoft states that their Bing Map uses the Mercator Globe Projection. That is not a claim, it its a fact. The bother in talking about creating an FE map is to create an accurate flat earth map NOT based upon a globe projection. How do you not get that? It's the holy grail of the FE movement.


If the FE community doesn't have a problem with maps being globe projections then I guess they don't have a problem with the irony of it: FEr's using and displaying maps based upon a spherical earth.

The FE response i've gotten, in regards to globe projection, was either silence or a disagreement with the idea that Bing maps is a globe projection. So your claim that the FE community would reject a map because, based on your research, it's a globe projection is incorrect.

As for the communities silence or disagreement regarding Bing Maps being a globe projection, I suggest they take it up with Microsoft. I've already given you the direct quote from Microsoft stating that their map is a Mercator globe projection. What more evidence would anyone need? Unless the community thinks Microsoft is lying about their own map. If so, that's not my problem.
Whether they reject or accept the Miscrosoft map because it's a globe projection is not my problem. I don't really care one way or the other. I just find it ironic that FEr's who do accept the Bing map are essentially accepting a globe earth. If you don't get that I can't help you.

Yes it does matter. I'm confused as to why this is perpetually lost on you. How the flat 2D plane maps come to be is by flattening a globe. Get it, a globe.

Well here we can just agree to disagree. Any map presented you will claim is a map of a globe. With that kind of mentality that EVERY map is a globe map then why even bother posting on these threads about making a non globe map? You will just say it's a globe map.

We can't just agree to disagree unless you can refute Microsoft's claim that their map is based on a spherical model of earth. Your only argument would seem to be that they are lying.
And no, any map presented I will not claim anything. I will research the map to see whether it's a globe projection or not then present the facts that show whether it is or isn't. Like I did with the Bing Map.
And, like I just wrote, I will not, "just say it's a globe map". Do you get what the OP is about? It's about trying to figure out how to make an FE map that is NOT based on a globe projection.


The point is that a flat map is not possible using long known and accurate distances between points.   It is not possible to lay it out.

What's wrong with Bing maps?

There's nothing wrong with Bing Maps. For the millionth time, it is a Mercator globe projection map. To an FEr, the fact that it is derived from a spherical earth might be an issue, or might not be. That's for each individual to decide.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 09, 2019, 09:45:16 PM
Do you get what the OP is about? It's about trying to figure out how to make an FE map that is NOT based on a globe projection.

That's funny because I read the OP and no where does it mention what sort of projection the map may, or may not, be based upon.


And no, any map presented I will not claim anything. I will research the map to see whether it's a globe projection or not then present the facts that show whether it is or isn't. Like I did with the Bing Map.

Then we can use Mapquest.com Is there any specific documentation you can find about the MapQuest map which specifically says it's based on a globe projection?

If you don't like that map then we can use the map on https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/ (although it does not have an interactive scale)

If you don't like that map then we can use the map on http://suncalc.net

If you don't like that map then we can use the map https://www.openstreetmap.org
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: AATW on July 09, 2019, 09:55:03 PM
Here are a few shots of my attempt.
That's great work. What tool did you use? I used Paint.Net which is very fiddly for this sort of thing.
My aim in this was to show that the reason there is no flat earth map is that no flat earth map is possible
Given the known distances between places, they can't be plotted on a flat plane for the same reason that any map of earth requires projection.
Fundamentally it's impossible to perfectly represent a globe on a flat plane.
I chose 4 places in continental America to get away from arguments about measuring distances over oceans, but maybe that scale still isn't big enough to see the problem clearly.
The only counter argument I see is that the distances are wrong.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 09, 2019, 10:00:06 PM
Do you get what the OP is about? It's about trying to figure out how to make an FE map that is NOT based on a globe projection.

That's funny because I read the OP and no where does it mention what sort of projection the map may, or may not, be based upon.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? Title of thread: How to make a FE map, step one. FE stands for Flat Earth. Flat Earth means not a Globe Earth. Making an FE map means making one not derived from a Globe. Means a map that does not use a projection.

And no, any map presented I will not claim anything. I will research the map to see whether it's a globe projection or not then present the facts that show whether it is or isn't. Like I did with the Bing Map.

Then we can use Mapquest.com Is there any specific documentation you can find about the MapQuest map which specifically says it's based on a globe projection?

If you don't like that map then we can use the map on https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/ (although it does not have an interactive scale)

If you don't like that map then we can use the map on http://suncalc.net

If you don't like that map then we can use the map https://www.openstreetmap.org

If they are using a Mercator projection like Bing, then yes they are globe projections. I suspect they are, but don't know for sure. But I need some time to look at them. I'll get back to you.

EDIT: Researched the above, all are Globe Projections:

MapQuest: Yes, uses Mercator Globe Projection
https://developer.mapquest.com/documentation/maps-sdk/android/v2.0.9/javadoc/index.html?com/mapquest/mapping/models/MercatorProjection.html

TimeandDate.com: Yes, from the distortion there is some sort of projection being used. Look at Greenland, for example. A true Flat Earth map would have zero distortion.
No documentation found.

Suncalc.net: Yes, uses Google’s Mercator Globe Projection
I get an error message that says “This page can’t load Google Maps correctly” but it still works. Its a browser issue.

OpenStreetMap.org: Yes, uses a modified Mercator Globe Projection
"Most of OSM, including the main tiling system, uses a Pseudo-Mercator projection where the Earth is modelized as if it was a perfect a sphere.”
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mercator

Bing: Yes, uses Mercator Globe Projection
"To make the map seamless, and to ensure that aerial images from different sources line up properly, we have to use a single projection for the entire world. We chose to use the Mercator projection."
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/bingmaps/articles/bing-maps-tile-system
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 09, 2019, 10:10:17 PM
iamcpc, is English your first language? I'm assuming something is lost in translation here because I know myself and others have pointed out how a projection of the globe to a flat map cannot be used as a flat earth map. Hence this thread asking how to map out a flat earth.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 09, 2019, 10:52:45 PM
Are you being obtuse on purpose? Title of thread: How to make a FE map, step one.

I'm not being obtuse at all. I'm pointing out that the title of the thread is :

"How to make a FE map, step one."

and not

"How to make a FE map which, is not derived from a globe projection, step one.

Furthermore, in the body the the original post, no where is any sort of projection discussed. You have added this after the fact.


iamcpc, is English your first language?

yes


myself and others have pointed out how a projection of the globe to a flat map cannot be used as a flat earth map.

First off
Well there is where the debate lies. I disagree. I think you can draw a map of the earth which looks like a map which was based on a Globe projection and have it not represent a Globe. I don't think that globe projections don't have interactive scales like Bing maps does.

Second off
Arguing about the type of projection the map may or may not have is a red herring. There is a map of the earth. A map that I have personally used to travel thousands and thousands of miles.

Third off
I have provided similar maps (although not as thoroughly tested) in which there is no documentation saying the map is based on a globe projection. I could provide dozens more.

Finally Tom has provided evidence which suggest that the maps which were claimed to be "globe projections" were really not. I can't find the link but I sent him a message.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 09, 2019, 11:05:56 PM
Are you being obtuse on purpose? Title of thread: How to make a FE map, step one.

I'm not being obtuse at all. I'm pointing out that the title of the thread is :

"How to make a FE map, step one."

and not

"How to make a FE map which, is not derived from a globe projection, step one.

Furthermore, in the body the the original post, no where is any sort of projection discussed. You have added this after the fact.

Because it doesn't need to be spelled out. Even though I've done so already numerous times. A true flat earth map would NOT need a projection. It would be projectionless. You wouldn't need to project a flat earth onto a flat map. So by default, someone uttering a phrase like "How to make a FE map," defacto means NO PROJECTION. Get it?

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 10, 2019, 12:18:12 AM
iamcpc, is English your first language?

yes


myself and others have pointed out how a projection of the globe to a flat map cannot be used as a flat earth map.

First off
Well there is where the debate lies. I disagree. I think you can draw a map of the earth which looks like a map which was based on a Globe projection and have it not represent a Globe. I don't think that globe projections don't have interactive scales like Bing maps does.

Second off
Arguing about the type of projection the map may or may not have is a red herring. There is a map of the earth. A map that I have personally used to travel thousands and thousands of miles.

Third off
I have provided similar maps (although not as thoroughly tested) in which there is no documentation saying the map is based on a globe projection. I could provide dozens more.

Finally Tom has provided evidence which suggest that the maps which were claimed to be "globe projections" were really not. I can't find the link but I sent him a message.

Ok then could you explain where you're getting confused so we can move past this?

Again 'interactive scale' means nothing here, full view of the Bing map is distorted you cannot get around that fact. Microsoft even state that it's a distorted map, it's the only way to have a globe mapped to a flat image without maybe splitting it up like an orange peel.

Talking about the fact that the Bing map is a projected map from a globe is not a red herring, it's the whole point in this thread.

Ok, so you provided other websites to maps, Well they're all projections from the globe once again. Compare the landmass sizes to google earth to see the distortion. Once again, this is why this thread exists. To map out the world would require manually measuring distances which if you then compare to globe maps you can find out if the globe maps are wrong (Which I'll wager that globe maps like google maps aren't wrong).

You can provide all the projected maps you want... I find it strange that you've only pointed to projected maps though and not maps that not using a projection. Since you've confirmed english is your first language I can only assume now that you've completely misunderstood what makes these maps projections of the globe... But I've already explained and so have others so please by all means explain to me where you're becoming confused.

At one point I took the time to remap the Timeanddate map to a globe just to show how lighting happened to be perfect on the globe, maybe this can also help show how projections are distorted too;

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/462006443403640834/513519659451154432/SunMotion.gif)

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/462006443403640834/513527952936402974/ProjectedToEarth.gif)

And here is a gif to show you the difference in the actual size of countries compared to the distorted sizes caused by the projection.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Worlds_animate.gif)
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: TomInAustin on July 10, 2019, 02:58:46 PM
Here are a few shots of my attempt.
That's great work. What tool did you use? I used Paint.Net which is very fiddly for this sort of thing.
My aim in this was to show that the reason there is no flat earth map is that no flat earth map is possible
Given the known distances between places, they can't be plotted on a flat plane for the same reason that any map of earth requires projection.
Fundamentally it's impossible to perfectly represent a globe on a flat plane.
I chose 4 places in continental America to get away from arguments about measuring distances over oceans, but maybe that scale still isn't big enough to see the problem clearly.
The only counter argument I see is that the distances are wrong.

I use google Scetch Up.  It's free and works very well.  I have used it to generate plans for a deck build and a 3rd garage bay build out. 

https://www.sketchup.com/
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 10, 2019, 03:36:26 PM
First off
Well there is where the debate lies. I disagree. I think you can draw a map of the earth which looks like a map which was based on a Globe projection and have it not represent a Globe. I don't think that globe projections don't have interactive scales like Bing maps does.

Second off
Arguing about the type of projection the map may or may not have is a red herring. There is a map of the earth. A map that I have personally used to travel thousands and thousands of miles.

Third off
I have provided similar maps (although not as thoroughly tested) in which there is no documentation saying the map is based on a globe projection. I could provide dozens more.

Finally Tom has provided evidence which suggest that the maps which were claimed to be "globe projections" were really not. I can't find the link but I sent him a message.



Ok then could you explain where you're getting confused so we can move past this?

I'm not confused. I'm disagreeing.

Again 'interactive scale' means nothing here

I disagree. I think the interactive scale does mean something.

Bing map is distorted you cannot get around that fact. Microsoft even state that it's a distorted map, it's the only way to have a globe mapped to a flat image without maybe splitting it up like an orange peel.

By your definition Bing maps is distorted. By my definition it is not.

Talking about the fact that the Bing map is a projected map from a globe is not a red herring, it's the whole point in this thread.

Again this thread was about the first steps to be taken to make a map of the earth. Hence the title: "How to make a FE map, step one."

Everyone is acting like the title is "How to make a FE map, in which the map takes no inspiration from any sort of global projection, step one."

Ok, so you provided other websites to maps, Well they're all projections from the globe once again.

Do you have any documentation that supports this or are you just making it up?

Compare the landmass sizes to google earth to see the distortion. Once again, this is why this thread exists.

Again we disagree. If the map has an interactive scale which changes depending on where you look and how far in you are zoomed I don't consider that distorted.

Which I'll wager that globe maps like google maps aren't wrong

Even Google maps has an interactive scale which changes depending on where you look and how far in you are zoomed. By your logic it's distorted.

You can provide all the projected maps you want... I find it strange that you've only pointed to projected maps though and not maps that not using a projection.

I only ever saw any sort of documentation that Bing maps was a Mercator  projection.

This documentation says that the Mercator projection is not based on a globe/sphere/oblate spheroid but rather based on a collection of flat maps:

https://wiki.tfes.org/World_Geodetic_System_1984

 
And here is a gif to show you the difference in the actual size of countries compared to the distorted sizes caused by the projection.


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Worlds_animate.gif)

That would be true if the maps didn't have an interactive scale.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 10, 2019, 05:11:44 PM
Do you believe people become massive at the poles? Do you think if I were to travel from the north pole all the way to the equator then to the south pole that I would me large, then normal sized, then large again? If not then why would you think the landmasses do this?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 10, 2019, 06:10:10 PM
Do you believe people become massive at the poles? Do you think if I were to travel from the north pole all the way to the equator then to the south pole that I would me large, then normal sized, then large again?

no.

If not then why would you think the landmasses do this?

I feel like we are getting off topic here. Why I think the landmasses do this is a moot point. What is the first step to creating a flat earth map. I suggested several possible first steps and they were all ignored.

 I will answer though.

There are a lot of possible reasons that I can think of across the entire FE bell curve spectrum.

The FE side of this particular model could say maybe they were deliberately made that way, and claimed to be a global projection, to support RE. When I go to the left of the middle those kinds of ideas, while possible, I believe are less probable.


A neutral explanation says that maybe our cartography technology has not gotten advanced enough for that.
A neutral explanation could say I've never been to the South pole, North pole, or Greenland so I cant personally verify how big or small they are.
A neutral explanation could say maybe the earth is shaped like a contact lens or a plate that curves up or down on the ends which causes this distortion.
A neutral explanation could say maybe parts of the earth are curved or have changes in altitude which creates the need for an interactive scale.

A RE explanation could be that the earth is a sphere and therefore it's impossible to have a 2d map without an interactive scale with continents the right size
A RE explanation could be that the earth is an oblate spheroid and therefore it's impossible to have a 2d map without an interactive scale with continents the right size


these don't make a lot of sense to me because in the past few years I've read news articles about advancements made in global cartography and new maps made in which the size of the continents is substantially more accurate. While those maps don't reflect this particular model they significantly weaken the RE explanations listed above.

Even if the earth was a sphere or oblate spheroid I can't imagine that in thousands and thousands of years they couldn't take a sphere, break it down to individual surface molecules using a supercomputer and project those molecules onto pixels (or whatever version of pixels they have 10k years in the future) and make a 2d image which is both flat and undistorted by your definition.

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: Snoopy on July 10, 2019, 07:44:04 PM
If one drove the most direct route from NYC to LA and a verified OBC said it was 2800 miles (40 hrs at avg 70 mph) and when looking at a map said the straight line is ~2500 miles would FE'ers accept that as a reasonable estimate?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 10, 2019, 08:26:15 PM


Again 'interactive scale' means nothing here

I disagree. I think the interactive scale does mean something.

It doesn't. We are talking about a World flat earth map. Not a city/state/country flat earth map. So if we are talking about the World then you must be zoomed out. Therefore one scale = World.


Bing map is distorted you cannot get around that fact. Microsoft even state that it's a distorted map, it's the only way to have a globe mapped to a flat image without maybe splitting it up like an orange peel.

By your definition Bing maps is distorted. By my definition it is not.

No, by Microsoft's definition:

"Although the Mercator projection significantly distorts scale and area (particularly near the poles), it has two important properties that outweigh the scale distortion:

1) It’s a conformal projection, which means that it preserves the shape of relatively small objects. This is especially important when showing aerial imagery, because we want to avoid distorting the shape of buildings. Square buildings should appear square, not rectangular.

2) It’s a cylindrical projection, which means that north and south are always straight up and down, and west and east are always straight left and right."
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/bingmaps/articles/bing-maps-tile-system

How many time do we have to go over this?

Talking about the fact that the Bing map is a projected map from a globe is not a red herring, it's the whole point in this thread.

Again this thread was about the first steps to be taken to make a map of the earth. Hence the title: "How to make a FE map, step one."

Everyone is acting like the title is "How to make a FE map, in which the map takes no inspiration from any sort of global projection, step one."

A true flat earth map by definition has no projection of any shape. No projection. As I and others have said many times, there is no need to project a flat earth onto a flat map. It's 1 to 1.

The entire point of this and any other discussion about an FE map is that the Flat Earth Community does not have a map to support their theory that the earth is flat. At least one that is NOT based on a spherical earth. Which is the whole point of trying to make a true flat earth map, one that is not based on a spherical earth. It is the holy grail of the entire flat earth movement.

If it would make you more comfortable, I can ask Jimster to change the title of this thread to "How to make a FE map, in which the map takes no inspiration from any sort of global projection, step one." But I shouldn't have to as you should understand by now.


Ok, so you provided other websites to maps, Well they're all projections from the globe once again.

Do you have any documentation that supports this or are you just making it up?

You probably missed my edit to the previous post:

MapQuest: Yes, uses Mercator Globe Projection
https://developer.mapquest.com/documentation/maps-sdk/android/v2.0.9/javadoc/index.html?com/mapquest/mapping/models/MercatorProjection.html

TimeandDate.com: Yes, from the distortion there is some sort of projection being used. Look at Greenland, for example. A true Flat Earth map would have zero distortion.
No documentation found.

Suncalc.net: Yes, uses Google’s Mercator Globe Projection
I get an error message that says “This page can’t load Google Maps correctly” but it still works. Its a browser issue.

OpenStreetMap.org: Yes, uses a modified Mercator Globe Projection
"Most of OSM, including the main tiling system, uses a Pseudo-Mercator projection where the Earth is modelized as if it was a perfect a sphere.”
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mercator

Bing: Yes, uses Mercator Globe Projection
"To make the map seamless, and to ensure that aerial images from different sources line up properly, we have to use a single projection for the entire world. We chose to use the Mercator projection."
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/bingmaps/articles/bing-maps-tile-system

You can look this stuff up just as easily as I can. Maybe put a little effort into some research.

Compare the landmass sizes to google earth to see the distortion. Once again, this is why this thread exists.

Again we disagree. If the map has an interactive scale which changes depending on where you look and how far in you are zoomed I don't consider that distorted.

Just because you disagree doesn't make you right. Read Microsoft's description of the distortion in Bing maps above. And again, we're not talking about scaling. We're talking about a world map which means you use one scale, the zoomed out one. Otherwise, you can't see the whole world.

Which I'll wager that globe maps like google maps aren't wrong

Even Google maps has an interactive scale which changes depending on where you look and how far in you are zoomed. By your logic it's distorted.

See above.

You can provide all the projected maps you want... I find it strange that you've only pointed to projected maps though and not maps that not using a projection.

I only ever saw any sort of documentation that Bing maps was a Mercator  projection.

This documentation says that the Mercator projection is not based on a globe/sphere/oblate spheroid but rather based on a collection of flat maps:

https://wiki.tfes.org/World_Geodetic_System_1984

No where in the wiki or the supporting documentation does it say the Mercator projection is not based on a globe/sphere/oblate spheroid but rather based on a collection of flat maps. Tom's arguments are around State Plane maps which if you actually read the supporting  documentation are great for a State view but quickly lose accuracy the bigger the area. According to Tom's logic the FE community could just paste together all the State plane maps and boom, there's your flat earth map of America. However, in aggregate, it would be a wildly inaccurate map of America.

And actually, the wiki article and supporting documentation quite nicely points out how maps are based on a spherical earth.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 10, 2019, 08:42:00 PM
I disagree. I think the interactive scale does mean something.

It doesn't. We are talking about a World flat earth map. Not a city/state/country flat earth map. So if we are talking about the World then you must be zoomed out. Therefore one scale = World.

I disagree. We can just agree to disagree and move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be.


By your definition Bing maps is distorted. By my definition it is not.

No, by Microsoft's definition:
...
How many time do we have to go over this?

I have defined what I my criteria for distortion are and how bing maps does not meet my criteria for distortion.
We can just agree to disagree and move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be.

Again this thread was about the first steps to be taken to make a map of the earth. Hence the title: "How to make a FE map, step one."

Everyone is acting like the title is "How to make a FE map, in which the map takes no inspiration from any sort of global projection, step one."

A true flat earth map by definition has no projection of any shape. No projection. As I and others have said many times, there is no need to project a flat earth onto a flat map. It's 1 to 1.

The entire point of this and any other discussion about an FE map is that the Flat Earth Community does not have a map to support their theory that the earth is flat. At least one that is NOT based on a spherical earth. Which is the whole point of trying to make a true flat earth map, one that is not based on a spherical earth. It is the holy grail of the entire flat earth movement.

If it would make you more comfortable, I can ask Jimster to change the title of this thread to "How to make a FE map, in which the map takes no inspiration from any sort of global projection, step one." But I shouldn't have to as you should understand by now.


We can just agree to disagree on the whole projection thing. It's a red herring anyway.
We can just agree to disagree and move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be.


TimeandDate.com: Yes, from the distortion there is some sort of projection being used. Look at Greenland, for example. A true Flat Earth map would have zero distortion.
No documentation found.


Suncalc.net: Yes, uses Google’s Mercator Globe Projection
I get an error message that says “This page can’t load Google Maps correctly” but it still works. Its a browser issue.

I notice you don't have any documentation to go along with these claims. Can we move away from the red herring and move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be.






Again we disagree. If the map has an interactive scale which changes depending on where you look and how far in you are zoomed I don't consider that distorted.

Just because you disagree doesn't make you right. Read Microsoft's description of the distortion in Bing maps above. And again, we're not talking about scaling. We're talking about a world map which means you use one scale, the zoomed out one. Otherwise, you can't see the whole world.

Can we move away from this pointless red herring debate about if you think i'm right or not. Can we move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be?

No where in the wiki or the supporting documentation does it say the Mercator projection is not based on a globe/sphere/oblate spheroid but rather based on a collection of flat maps. Tom's arguments are around State Plane maps which if you actually read the supporting  documentation are great for a State view but quickly lose accuracy the bigger the area. According to Tom's logic the FE community could just paste together all the State plane maps and boom, there's your flat earth map of America. However, in aggregate, it would be a wildly inaccurate map of America.

And actually, the wiki article and supporting documentation quite nicely points out how maps are based on a spherical earth.


Would it help you move on if I said you are 100% correct and I am 100% wrong and have changed by views an opinions to perfectly match yours? If so I will do it in a second. As long it it would help us move away from this pointless unwinnable red herring debate and on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: Snoopy on July 10, 2019, 09:24:57 PM
What would the fe map look like if projected/wrapped around a globe?
Would the perimeter ice wall form or wrap around the globes south pole?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 10, 2019, 09:29:29 PM
It's not a red herring, it's a major reason there is no 'flat earth' map. there are flat maps of the earth, and these are distorted. This is the reason for this thread. Step one for mapping the earth would be to literally measure long distances manually then compare the results to standard, widely used maps like Google maps.

Obviously since I'm not a flat earther I will assume that any measurements (if accurate) will match google maps. If they do not match google maps then flat earthers might be on to something and should most certainly continue manually measuring the globe to win their nobel prize for uncovering the worlds biggest conspiracy.

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 10, 2019, 09:39:51 PM
What would the fe map look like if projected/wrapped around a globe?
Would the perimeter ice wall form or wrap around the globes south pole?

Something like this, if using the most common FE map, the AE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wq3GiJT2wQ
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 10, 2019, 10:33:25 PM
Step one for mapping the earth would be to literally measure long distances manually then compare the results to standard, widely used maps like Google maps.

Chris,

Thank you so much for your idea. The problem that I see within the FE community is that the systems which are used to measure long distances are many times not agreed upon.

In addition how would you measure the distance to and from the great ice wall? In my FE model there is no great ice wall. Would you measure distances under the assumption that there is a great ice wall?




Something like this, if using the most common FE map, the AE:

It's the most common FE map yet people have claimed that it's based on a globe projection therefore does not count.

In an attempt to put projections aside:

That map does not corroborate observations that I've made when traveling internationally. The distance between South America and Australia for example does not match shipping times, shipping distances shipping paths, travel times, travel paths, and travel distances.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 10, 2019, 11:21:55 PM
Something like this, if using the most common FE map, the AE:

It's the most common FE map yet people have claimed that it's based on a globe projection therefore does not count.

In an attempt to put projections aside:

That map does not corroborate observations that I've made when traveling internationally. The distance between South America and Australia for example does not match shipping times, shipping distances shipping paths, travel times, travel paths, and travel distances.

I agree, it is the most common FE 'map'. And it's not a claim that it is a globe projection. It simply is a globe projection. That's how one makes the AE map, by projecting a globe:

(https://i.imgur.com/G1O9Trr.png?1)

And yes, I agree that map does not corroborate observations that I've made when traveling internationally as well.

As for icewall or no icewall, that shouldn't be a gating factor for creating a flat earth map. If such a map can be created someone can put any sort of ice wall want around it if they so desire. The trick is accurately mapping the continents first. Walls and domes can come later.

I think why the AE map is so common is because when it was first proposed not much was known about Antarctica for one. For two, it made it so the sun and moon could orbit above the earth and not drop off the west side of, let's say a Bing map, and magically pac-man and appear over on the east side.

Maybe we start with what ChrisTP showed with that gif morphing a Mercator projection into showing the correct sizes of the continents. Here's a static representation:

(https://i.imgur.com/YVhZnEi.png?1)

If you remove all of the light blue parts and then squeeze together the dark blue parts, like putting a puzzle together. Problems immediately arise in terms the accuracy of distances and you're still in the jam of how the sun moves as well as how my plane gets from San Francisco to Tokyo by going west. But maybe it's a start.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: Bad Puppy on July 11, 2019, 03:21:58 AM
I think it's important when making a flat map to NOT reference any existing maps or projections whatsoever.  We all know these are based on a globe, so that's not going to help us.  I recall the flat earth community does not have a problem with the existence of weather satellites, only that they're not actually in space.  These can serve as our eyes in the sky.  Now, as long as the altitude of these satellites remains mostly constant we can see the shapes of the land masses and their distances from one another.

Actual distance isn't important at this point; just relative distance.  This can help build a bird's eye view of the world.  Since we can't assume the altitude of such devices we'll have to find another means of measuring the actual scale of the map, but that's not important.

Now, if enough photos are taken with overlapping points, it should be possible to print them, align them using the overlapping points, stitch them together, and complete a map of the Earth.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 11, 2019, 03:52:59 AM
This FEer tried without using satellites and such, but using the sun. He apparently gave up at some point. I think he screwed the pooch, as it were, right out of the gate by assuming a sun moving at 1000 mph. He was trying to use the sun to calculate distances but one would need to know the distances to calculate the speed of the sun. A double bind, if you will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDzzTlhj1uw
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: TomInAustin on July 11, 2019, 06:20:37 PM

Can we move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be?

There have already been suggestions.  Plotting out a map is quite simple using know distances between points. 

I know there have been arguments about distance but they do not hold water as so much commerce depends on them.   
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: spherical on July 11, 2019, 06:28:56 PM
If you think about the FE model to be like a pizza, and start to draw countries and continents based on known true distances, inland and between them, this pizza will end up missing few slices. Flat Earth model has a huge problem here.  Someone (FEt) must fix this issue very soon.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 11, 2019, 07:33:27 PM
If you think about the FE model to be like a pizza, and start to draw countries and continents based on known true distances, inland and between them, this pizza will end up missing few slices. Flat Earth model has a huge problem here.  Someone (FEt) must fix this issue very soon.

The biggest problem that I've seen is that, if the map is not interactive, it always get proven incorrect by
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 11, 2019, 07:38:08 PM
If you think about the FE model to be like a pizza, and start to draw countries and continents based on known true distances, inland and between them, this pizza will end up missing few slices. Flat Earth model has a huge problem here.  Someone (FEt) must fix this issue very soon.

The biggest problem that I've seen is that, if the map is not interactive, it always get proven incorrect by
Right, Zoom out fully on the bing map, screenshot it and work from that screenshot instead of the website. Stop talking about interactive scales. We want a picture of the world in full that is correctly sized and shaped, not one that's distorted. if it distorts, it means the distortion is making up for a projection of a spheroid or any other shape that isn't flat. It's that simple. The bing map regardless of what you think is still a globe map not a 'flat earth' map. There is no way round that fact.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: Bad Puppy on July 11, 2019, 07:44:52 PM
If you think about the FE model to be like a pizza, and start to draw countries and continents based on known true distances, inland and between them, this pizza will end up missing few slices. Flat Earth model has a huge problem here.  Someone (FEt) must fix this issue very soon.

The biggest problem that I've seen is that, if the map is not interactive, it always get proven incorrect by

Why does it have to be "interactive" to be proven correct?  That should definitely NOT be necessary for a flat earth.  And, for a globe....well, they're not interactive at all.  I'm sure there's a giant globe out there that's accurate and not interactive.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 11, 2019, 07:48:54 PM
Why does it have to be "interactive" to be proven correct?  That should definitely NOT be necessary for a flat earth.  And, for a globe....well, they're not interactive at all.  I'm sure there's a giant globe out there that's accurate and not interactive.



 Because any non-interactive map is severely weakened by observations that I've made when traveling internationally. If you provide me with a non-interactive map and I guarantee that I can provide overwhelming evidence showing that it is wrong using flight times and distances for flights that I've personally taken and verified. As well as the map not  matching shipping times, shipping distances shipping paths, travel times, travel paths, and travel distances.


Right, Zoom out fully on the bing map, screenshot it and work from that screenshot instead of the website. Stop talking about interactive scales. We want a picture of the world in full that is correctly sized and shaped, not one that's distorted. if it distorts, it means the distortion is making up for a projection of a spheroid or any other shape that isn't flat. It's that simple. The bing map regardless of what you think is still a globe map not a 'flat earth' map. There is no way round that fact.

By my definition Bing maps is not distorted.

There have been advancements in technology. You are asking for a map from the 1900's. I'm saying that you should consider that, in the past 200 years, advancements have been made in cartography and now we are able to create interactive online maps which are much less distorted (by both of our definitions of distortion when referring to maps) than the maps from over 100 years ago. Why are you wanting a map which is 100 year old when you could have a new, higher tech, more accurate interactive map?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 11, 2019, 08:13:16 PM
Why are you wanting a map which is 100 year old when you could have a new, higher tech, more accurate interactive map?

No, actually only one that is about 20 years old. Yahoo! launched their 'interactive' web map service in 1998. They were basically the first to do so.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 11, 2019, 08:34:56 PM
Why are you wanting a map which is 100 year old when you could have a new, higher tech, more accurate interactive map?

No, actually only one that is about 20 years old. Yahoo! launched their 'interactive' web map service in 1998. They were basically the first to do so.


Stack,

ChrisTP is asking for a non interactive still picture map in the quote below:

Yahoo maps is an interactive map made in the last 20 or so years. My point is that still image non interactive maps were used over 100 years ago and we now have the ability to make better, more accurate, maps which are interactive.


Zoom out fully on the bing map, screenshot it and work from that screenshot instead of the website. Stop talking about interactive scales.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 11, 2019, 09:33:18 PM
Why are you wanting a map which is 100 year old when you could have a new, higher tech, more accurate interactive map?

No, actually only one that is about 20 years old. Yahoo! launched their 'interactive' web map service in 1998. They were basically the first to do so.


Stack,

ChrisTP is asking for a non interactive still picture map in the quote below:

Yahoo maps is an interactive map made in the last 20 or so years. My point is that still image non interactive maps were used over 100 years ago and we now have the ability to make better, more accurate, maps which are interactive.


Zoom out fully on the bing map, screenshot it and work from that screenshot instead of the website. Stop talking about interactive scales.

I know what Chris is asking and I agree with him. The problem with your "interactive" maps you so adore is that they are globe projections regardless of zooming. Take Bing Maps for example, you've already been shown that Microsoft uses the Mercator Globe Projection. Looking at say Wyoming, it's represented as a square, that's Mercator projection at work. When in actuality, it's really a trapezoid, very slightly. But a trapezoid nonetheless. (look up the dimensions of Wyoming yourself, you'll see what I mean)

So again, the exercise here is to figure out a way to make a flat earth (as in World) map based upon a flat earth. No globe projections involved. The best place to start is with a static map like we all used to rely on 20 years ago.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 11, 2019, 09:37:19 PM
So again, the exercise here is to figure out a way to make a flat earth (as in World) map based upon a flat earth. No globe projections involved. The best place to start is with a static map like we all used to rely on 20 years ago.


Here's the problem. Every single static map that has been presented you stand up and proudly say "based on globe projection! It does not count!" and throw us back in the red herring projection debate.

You even presented a FE map and then, shortly after presenting it, claimed that it was really a globe projection.

Why don't you present a map which fits your criteria for this discussion so we can finally move past this red herring debate which I have asked dozens of times for us to move past.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 11, 2019, 09:57:22 PM
Again it's not a red herring. You were presenting maps that are projections of the globe.

"Why don't you present a map which fits your criteria for this discussion so we can finally move past this red herring debate" - because it doesn't exist yet. That's the point of this thread.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 11, 2019, 11:18:55 PM
So again, the exercise here is to figure out a way to make a flat earth (as in World) map based upon a flat earth. No globe projections involved. The best place to start is with a static map like we all used to rely on 20 years ago.

Here's the problem. Every single static map that has been presented you stand up and proudly say "based on globe projection! It does not count!" and throw us back in the red herring projection debate.

I don't stand up and say that. I just merely relay the fact, for instance, that Microsoft states they use the mercator globe projection. And the whole point here is to create a flat earth map which means NO projection. There is no red herring debate because there is no debate. Projection maps are what they are, period.

You even presented a FE map and then, shortly after presenting it, claimed that it was really a globe projection.

Listen, there is no such thing as a true accurate flat earth map. So we're collectively trying to figure out how in the hell to make a true accurate flat earth map where everyone else who has ever tried has failed. So there's no FE map to present because one doesn't exist, hence this thread. Get it?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 12, 2019, 05:53:06 AM
Again it's not a red herring. You were presenting maps that are projections of the globe.



 If it's not a red herring why do we keep talking about it instead of making a FE map??

"Why don't you present a map which fits your criteria for this discussion so we can finally move past this red herring debate" - because it doesn't exist yet. That's the point of this thread.

Then please present ANY map which fits the criteria as a framework for a FE map. I fear that it will show Canada North of the United States and someone will say "GLOBE PROJECTION!" thus FORCING this conversation to remain on the red herring.

Even when presented with maps in which the developer of the map does not specifically say is based on a globe projection:

"It looks kind of like a map that has a globe projection! therefore it does not count"  thus FORCING this conversation to remain on the red herring.


Listen, there is no such thing as a true accurate flat earth map. So we're collectively trying to figure out how in the hell to make a true accurate flat earth map where everyone else who has ever tried has failed. So there's no FE map to present because one doesn't exist, hence this thread. Get it?

From my perspective I am trying to present ideas for what I think could be good contenders and everyone else is talking about the projections that the maps may, or may not have.


Please present to me ANY map in which you believe the map would be a good framework for the starting of a flat earth map.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 12, 2019, 06:37:20 AM
Again it's not a red herring. You were presenting maps that are projections of the globe.



 If it's not a red herring why do we keep talking about it instead of making a FE map??

"Why don't you present a map which fits your criteria for this discussion so we can finally move past this red herring debate" - because it doesn't exist yet. That's the point of this thread.

Then please present ANY map which fits the criteria as a framework for a FE map. I fear that it will show Canada North of the United States and someone will say "GLOBE PROJECTION!" thus FORCING this conversation to remain on the red herring.

Even when presented with maps in which the developer of the map does not specifically say is based on a globe projection:

"It looks kind of like a map that has a globe projection! therefore it does not count"  thus FORCING this conversation to remain on the red herring.

Ummm, so far there is only one where I can't find documentation for, timeanddate. You've seen the list. All the others are documented globe projections. And it's not a "does not count" thing for the millionth time its that a true flat earth map should have NO projection - Again, the entire point of this thread.

Listen, there is no such thing as a true accurate flat earth map. So we're collectively trying to figure out how in the hell to make a true accurate flat earth map where everyone else who has ever tried has failed. So there's no FE map to present because one doesn't exist, hence this thread. Get it?

From my perspective I am trying to present ideas for what I think could be good contenders and everyone else is talking about the projections that the maps may, or may not have.

Please present to me ANY map in which you believe the map would be a good framework for the starting of a flat earth map.

Why don't you present a layout or even just a methodology that would be a good framework for starting a flat earth map.

For instance a member of the other site, using AE as a "model", not a map, but a model, for continental layout then used flight times between cities to calculate distances and plot the cities on the model. So many problems with this methodology I don't even know where to begin. But just as an example, when flight times in the Southern hemiplane didn't fit his model, he simply claimed those flights were fake. Went as far to claim that Qantas, for example, simply murders all the passengers on those fake flights to hide that they are fake. Lovely logic.

Many, many people have tried to create a true and accurate flat earth map that matches reality. ALL have failed. And I can see why.

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: TheNormalOne on July 12, 2019, 06:43:15 AM
Why does it have to be "interactive" to be proven correct?  That should definitely NOT be necessary for a flat earth.  And, for a globe....well, they're not interactive at all.  I'm sure there's a giant globe out there that's accurate and not interactive.



 Because any non-interactive map is severely weakened by observations that I've made when traveling internationally. If you provide me with a non-interactive map and I guarantee that I can provide overwhelming evidence showing that it is wrong using flight times and distances for flights that I've personally taken and verified. As well as the map not  matching shipping times, shipping distances shipping paths, travel times, travel paths, and travel distances.


Right, Zoom out fully on the bing map, screenshot it and work from that screenshot instead of the website. Stop talking about interactive scales. We want a picture of the world in full that is correctly sized and shaped, not one that's distorted. if it distorts, it means the distortion is making up for a projection of a spheroid or any other shape that isn't flat. It's that simple. The bing map regardless of what you think is still a globe map not a 'flat earth' map. There is no way round that fact.

By my definition Bing maps is not distorted.

There have been advancements in technology. You are asking for a map from the 1900's. I'm saying that you should consider that, in the past 200 years, advancements have been made in cartography and now we are able to create interactive online maps which are much less distorted (by both of our definitions of distortion when referring to maps) than the maps from over 100 years ago. Why are you wanting a map which is 100 year old when you could have a new, higher tech, more accurate interactive map?

What is your definition? I`m sorry if you already laid it out earlier in this tread, but I could not find it. You clearly disagree with Microsofts definition, and other definitions of distortions when it comes to projecting a sphere to a flat surface; ["Representing the earth's surface in two dimensions causes distortion in the shape, area, distance, or direction of the data. A map projection uses mathematical formulas to relate spherical coordinates on the globe to flat, planar coordinates. Different projections cause different types of distortion."[/i]
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: inquisitive on July 12, 2019, 09:14:35 AM
Many paper maps have lat/long lines drawn on them showing how the projection works.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 12, 2019, 03:34:33 PM
What is your definition? I`m sorry if you already laid it out earlier in this tread, but I could not find it. You clearly disagree with Microsofts definition, and other definitions of distortions when it comes to projecting a sphere to a flat surface; ["Representing the earth's surface in two dimensions causes distortion in the shape, area, distance, or direction of the data. A map projection uses mathematical formulas to relate spherical coordinates on the globe to flat, planar coordinates. Different projections cause different types of distortion."[/i]


It meets all of the criteria listed below I consider that map to undistorted:

1. The map has countries the correct size (based on the interactive scale of the map).
2. The map shows countries the correct distance away from each other (based on the interactive scale of the map).
3. The map has Countries the correct direction relative to each other
4. The map is usable to accurately navigate every country on earth



"It looks kind of like a map that has a globe projection! therefore it does not count"  thus FORCING this conversation to remain on the red herring.

Ummm, so far there is only one where I can't find documentation for, timeanddate. You've seen the list. All the others are documented globe projections.

Finally. That is a Flat earth map!


And it's not a "does not count" thing for the millionth time its that a true flat earth map should have NO projection - Again, the entire point of this thread.

For the millionth time it is a "does not count" thing.


Why don't you present a layout or even just a methodology that would be a good framework for starting a flat earth map.

I presented several different ideas on how to create a flat earth map and they were all ignored.

I presented like a dozen different layouts and everyone stood up, pointed at the layout, and proudly proclaimed that it does not count because of "projection". 


Many, many people have tried to create a true and accurate flat earth map that matches reality. ALL have failed. And I can see why.

Because any time a map is presented which is true based on the scale of the map, accurate  based on the scale of the map, and matches reality based on the scale of the map you say NO WAY BUD THAT MAP DOES NOT COUNT!!

when flight times in the Southern hemiplane didn't fit his model, he simply claimed those flights were fake. Went as far to claim that Qantas, for example, simply murders all the passengers on those fake flights to hide that they are fake. Lovely logic.

Hmmm someone claiming that a flight is fake

This sounds just like someone claiming that a FE map is "fake" because of "projection"



Much like he points at the flights and says "DOES NOT COUNT"
You point at maps or models and say "DOES NOT COUNT"
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 12, 2019, 04:17:09 PM
iamcpc, I don't think you understand why people are rejecting the Bing map as a 'flat earth' map. If you understood then you wouldn't simply be saying you disagree.

Tell me, if you saw earth from really far away so that you could see the entire surface of earth, do you think it'd look exactly, 100% like the shape of the Bing map visually? Do you think Greenland is literally that big compared to other countries nearer the equator?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 12, 2019, 04:24:52 PM
iamcpc, I don't think you understand why people are rejecting the Bing map as a 'flat earth' map. If you understood then you wouldn't simply be saying you disagree.

I understand and I disagree.

Tell me, if you saw earth from really far away so that you could see the entire surface of earth, do you think it'd look exactly, 100% like the shape of the Bing map visually? Do you think Greenland is literally that big compared to other countries nearer the equator?

I'm not a cartographer. Even if I was i'm not interested in what a cartographer would imagine he would see from outer space. I'm interested in what the cartographer KNOWS the map should look like in a way that

1. Has countries the correct size (based on the interactive scale of the map).
2. Shows countries the correct distance away from each other (based on the interactive scale of the map).
3. Has countries the correct direction relative to each other.
4. Is usable to accurately navigate every country on earth.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 12, 2019, 06:42:20 PM
"It looks kind of like a map that has a globe projection! therefore it does not count"  thus FORCING this conversation to remain on the red herring.

Ummm, so far there is only one where I can't find documentation for, timeanddate. You've seen the list. All the others are documented globe projections.

Finally. That is a Flat earth map!

Cool, here's your flat earth map, now what? For one, now you'll have to explain how a plane flying West gets from San Francisco to Tokyo.

(https://i.imgur.com/1QxpT9i.png?1)
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 12, 2019, 07:31:18 PM
Cool, here's your flat earth map, now what? For one, now you'll have to explain how a plane flying West gets from San Francisco to Tokyo.
(https://i.imgur.com/1QxpT9i.png?1)


I've already done this for you 3/21/2019 here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14046.msg187564#msg187564

I described it and took print screens and drew arrows on them. Please don't make me do it again.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: Bad Puppy on July 12, 2019, 07:41:49 PM
This was on timeanddate.com's FAQ page.   https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth-help.html (https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth-help.html)


Quote from: timeanddate.com
-I've heard rumors. Is the map really based on a flat Earth model?

No. The Earth is a globe.

iamcpc, it appears that the website is explicitly stating that the map they use is not based on a flat earth model.  Again, there's no point trying to make a flat earth map out of a globe earth projection.  If it was something that could be done this way, there would already be an accurate flat earth map.  But, there isn't.  So, clearly it must be tackled from a different direction.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 12, 2019, 07:57:22 PM
Cool, here's your flat earth map, now what? For one, now you'll have to explain how a plane flying West gets from San Francisco to Tokyo.
(https://i.imgur.com/1QxpT9i.png?1)


I've already done this for you 3/21/2019 here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14046.msg187564#msg187564

I described it and took print screens and drew arrows on them. Please don't make me do it again.

No. Show my flight from SF to Tokyo on the timeanddate map, your flat earth map, in one shot. The whole journey on the map of the world as shown above.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 12, 2019, 10:13:58 PM
No. Show my flight from SF to Tokyo on the timeanddate map, your flat earth map, in one shot. The whole journey on the map of the world as shown above.


first off that is no my flat earth map. That is the only map of the earth that you have not stood up and said "DOES NOT COUNT" to.


I don't see the point of continuing this discussion.

I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"

I present a map that you have not yet said "DOES NOT COUNT" and you ask me to describe a plane flight.
I describe the plane flight "DOES NOT COUNT" It must be described differently

I could try to describe it differently and I know where this is going. You're going to say "DOES NOT COUNT"

Using the exact same non interactive image that you have given me here is the flight diagrammed between California and Japan. I'm sure, for whatever reason you come up with, you will proudly say "DOES NOT COUNT"

This is not a discussion or even a debate. It's me jumping through hoop after hoop after hoop and you saying that hoop didn't count jump through this one.


Here is the flight you described diagrammed from a simple google search of SF to Tokyo flight path.
(https://i.imgur.com/aoo4TAh.png)

I'm sure you will respond with "DOES NOT COUNT". Maybe because the map is a different color? I bet so.



Here's one that is using the same map and the same colors
(https://i.imgur.com/g70LClO.jpg)

I'm waiting to hear now why this one "DOES NOT COUNT"




Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 12, 2019, 10:30:15 PM
No. Show my flight from SF to Tokyo on the timeanddate map, your flat earth map, in one shot. The whole journey on the map of the world as shown above.

I don't see the point of continuing this discussion.

I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"
I present a map you say "DOES NOT COUNT"

I present a map that you have not yet said "DOES NOT COUNT" and you ask me to describe a plane flight.
I describe the plane flight "DOES NOT COUNT" It must be described differently

No, I actually conceded that I had no documentation to prove that timeandate's map was a projection after you wrote "Finally. That is a Flat earth map!". So I wrote, "Cool, here's your flat earth map." Meaning it counts.

Then I ask you about a plane flight on the map that does count: Draw my flight from SF to Tokyo on the timeanddate map, your flat earth map, in one shot. The whole journey on the map of the world as shown above.

And you proceed to throw a fit and fall in it because this much I know:

You can't draw my flight from SF to Tokyo on the timeanddate map, your flat earth map, in one shot. The whole journey on the map of the world as shown above.

It's pretty clear what you're doing. When finally allowed your map and given a problem to solve with it that you can't, you dodge the issue. I'm very disappointed you would do such a thing. Verging on disingenuous.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 12, 2019, 10:42:47 PM

You can't draw my flight from SF to Tokyo on the timeanddate map.

I already did. I'm sure you will say it "DOES NOT COUNT"

your flat earth map

Oh no sir. This is not my flat earth map. I just kept presenting maps until you stopped saying "DOES NOT COUNT!"



It's pretty clear what you're doing. When finally allowed your map

I was never allowed my map. I was not allowed my top 10 maps. I just had to keep linking maps until you FINALLY stopped saying they didn't count.


and given a problem to solve with it that you can't, you dodge the issue.

I drew the line on the map. How is that dodging the issue?

I'm very disappointed you would do such a thing. Verging on disingenuous.

You're right I could resort to countering your "DOES NOT COUNT" with my own. Normally these "THAT DOES NOT COUNT" tactics come from the FE side.



The whole journey on the map of the world as shown above.

oh wait my image was a snip of the original map and not the entire original map picture. it's still the same freaking thing. The plane departs from California, heads East over the Pacific Ocean, passes hawaii, lands in Japan.


let me save the image instead of a print screen of the image and do it that way. I've drawn these lines so many times. i'm sure after all of this you will just say "DOES NOT COUNT"


(https://i.imgur.com/f3lELxX.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/g70LClO.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/aoo4TAh.png)
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 13, 2019, 12:19:27 AM
let me save the image instead of a print screen of the image and do it that way. I've drawn these lines so many times. i'm sure after all of this you will just say "DOES NOT COUNT"

(https://i.imgur.com/f3lELxX.png)

As I mentioned before, I conceded that I can't prove with documentation that timeanddate is a projection map therefore it "counts".

I simply raised a problem with this type of flat earth model/map. It's called the "Pac-man" effect. I'm sure you've read about it here. In this model, my plane is magically "pac-manning" off the left side of the map and magically appearing on the right side. How did it sneak from the left side to the right unnoticed?

(https://i.imgur.com/RfZFdhd.jpg)

So we can certainly accept this model/map as a starting point as we can't prove it has anything to do with a globe projection and may very well represent a flat earth on a flat 2d plane. So it 'counts'. But you do have to answer to some pressing issues that arise from this model/map as well. Get it?

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 13, 2019, 12:29:36 AM

I simply raised a problem with this type of flat earth model/map. It's called the "Pac-man" effect. I'm sure you've read about it here. In this model, my plane is magically "pac-manning" off the left side of the map and magically appearing on the right side. How did it sneak from the left side to the right unnoticed?




Unfortunately for me you rejected every interactive map i found so I was limited to one that was not interactive.

I drew this line many times in many different ways using many different maps. I guess all of those "DO NOT COUNT"
Apparently you also rejected my explanation.


You don't teleport from one end to the other. Let me describe the flight in words again:

The plane departs from California, heads East over the Pacific Ocean, passes Hawaii, lands in Japan.

It's very clear.



Here is an image. Are you able to prove that this image is from a map which is based on a globe, sphere, or oblate spheroid projection? I believe you can and will just say "DOES NOT COUNT"

(https://i.imgur.com/aoo4TAh.png)
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 13, 2019, 12:59:36 AM

I simply raised a problem with this type of flat earth model/map. It's called the "Pac-man" effect. I'm sure you've read about it here. In this model, my plane is magically "pac-manning" off the left side of the map and magically appearing on the right side. How did it sneak from the left side to the right unnoticed?


Unfortunately for me you rejected every interactive map i found so I was limited to one that was not interactive.

I drew this line many times in many different ways using many different maps. I guess all of those "DO NOT COUNT"
Apparently you also rejected my explanation.


You don't teleport from one end to the other. Let me describe the flight in words again:

The plane departs from California, heads East over the Pacific Ocean, passes Hawaii, lands in Japan.

It's very clear.

You see, it's not. Not clear at all. For this exercise we are taking the continental layout from the timeanddate map which we can't prove is derived from a globe projection. Much like when an AE Monopole FEr uses their model (projection or no projection, doesn't matter) and maps out a flight path they show it on the whole map, as is, one world view.

So my flight on that model would look like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/ToMrwtG.jpg?1)

Regardless of whether anyone thinks that is the real flight path or not is not the issue at the moment. At least it doesn't pac man like is shown in your model. You need a one world view model where you show flight paths at the same time not dropping off any sides and needing to teleport.

Here is an image. Are you able to prove that this image is from a map which is based on a globe, sphere, or oblate spheroid projection? I believe you can and will just say "DOES NOT COUNT"

(https://i.imgur.com/aoo4TAh.png)

I have no idea if it's based on a globe projection or not. But there is a lot of the world missing from the image.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 13, 2019, 01:18:19 AM
At least it doesn't pac man like is shown in your model.

That is not my FE model. The depiction of the Earth which most closely resembles my FE model is bing maps which you have rejected. You demanded that I draw lines on a non interactive static image which I believe is much less accurate to what the world really looks like because that map does not even have a scale on it. Unfortunately any map that I found that had a scale, or was interactive, which was closer to my FE model you proudly said "DOES NOT COUNT"

My model does not pac man.

In addition that map has a large circle, which I assume to be the moon shown to be static over Africa. I could easily look at that and say "DOES NOT COUNT" but I don't because it's lame when done by FE people saying that flights don't count just like it's lame when done by you saying that maps or models or lines drawn between countries don't count.


I have no idea if it's based on a globe projection or not. But there is a lot of the world missing from the image.

Much like there is a lot of the world missing in a flight between California and Japan.


You see, it's not. Not clear at all.

I really question your sincerity when you say that it's unclear. I've explained this to you before, in great detail, as I am doing again. I believe that you are of at least slightly above average intelligence therefore capable of googling this flight path and seeing it shown, on least a dozen different websites.

What is unclear about the flight described below?

The plane departs from California, heads East over the Pacific Ocean, passes hawaii, lands in Japan.


what is unclear about this image:
(https://i.imgur.com/aoo4TAh.png)
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 13, 2019, 02:07:38 AM
At least it doesn't pac man like is shown in your model.

That is not my FE model. The depiction of the Earth which most closely resembles my FE model is bing maps which you have rejected. You demanded that I draw lines on a non interactive static image which I believe is much less accurate to what the world really looks like because that map does not even have a scale on it. Unfortunately any map that I found that had a scale, or was interactive, which was closer to my FE model you proudly said "DOES NOT COUNT"

My model does not pac man.

I'm not sure where we're missing the mark. Usually, if I'm explaining something to someone, 9 times out of 10, if they are not picking up what I'm putting down it's because I'm not explaining it well enough. Let's stick to the notion that we're still in the 90% realm.

- You like the bing map. So do I.
- You like that it's interactive, you can zoom in or zoom out. So do I.
- You think that the continental layout of the bing map is way more correct than this north pole centered business we see in the common FE map/model. Cool, so do I.
- So, for an FE Continental layout, let's go with the bing model. We both like it.

So here's the flat earth world Bing map we hang on the classroom wall:

(https://i.imgur.com/MproINB.png?1)

I'm going with calling it a flat earth world map hanging on the classroom wall because it is meant to represent the flat earth as we know it to be on a flat piece of paper attached to our flat classroom wall.

I'll stop here to see if we're on the same page. Are we on the same page?

EDIT:

I'm stumbled upon this which may be a better explainer than I am providing of the problem space. Have look. Right up front it references a lot of the issues we've already been talking about here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3G_04zol1U
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 14, 2019, 11:02:09 PM
I'll stop here to see if we're on the same page. Are we on the same page?

yes. I just want to reiterate that the most accurate FE model that iIve ever seen is interactive and not a static image.

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 15, 2019, 10:12:04 AM
I'll stop here to see if we're on the same page. Are we on the same page?

yes. I just want to reiterate that the most accurate FE model that iIve ever seen is interactive and not a static image.
What difference should that make? unless you think land distorts in real life the further away you are a static flat earth map is just as accurate.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: reer on July 15, 2019, 10:36:31 AM
In my question about airline flight times, I have suggested a very simple method to create a flat earth map, using flight times between cities. See this post:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15105.msg196360#msg196360

Can someone from the FE community do this and report back with the result?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: TomInAustin on July 15, 2019, 02:36:57 PM
In my question about airline flight times, I have suggested a very simple method to create a flat earth map, using flight times between cities. See this post:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15105.msg196360#msg196360

Can someone from the FE community do this and report back with the result?

Many people including myself have attempted to do exactly what you suggested.  In fact in this very thread.  The problem has been that the few FE'ers that respond derail the concept with claims of distances being unknown.  The infamous quote by Tom Bishop was that no one knows how far it is from New York to Paris.

I suggest you do what you are saying and lay out a map between major points and see what you come up with.  This will not produce accurate compass directions but will show the general layout.   Start with one point and draw a circle with the radius to the next point. Look for intersections of the circles as you add more points.

I have done it and it starts falling apart very quickly as distances increase.  The real breakdown comes with points in the southern hemisphere.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 15, 2019, 04:54:27 PM
In my question about airline flight times, I have suggested a very simple method to create a flat earth map, using flight times between cities. See this post:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15105.msg196360#msg196360

Can someone from the FE community do this and report back with the result?

Many people including myself have attempted to do exactly what you suggested.  In fact in this very thread.  The problem has been that the few FE'ers that respond derail the concept with claims of distances being unknown.  The infamous quote by Tom Bishop was that no one knows how far it is from New York to Paris.

I suggest you do what you are saying and lay out a map between major points and see what you come up with.  This will not produce accurate compass directions but will show the general layout.   Start with one point and draw a circle with the radius to the next point. Look for intersections of the circles as you add more points.

I have done it and it starts falling apart very quickly as distances increase.  The real breakdown comes with points in the southern hemisphere.


his topic has been discussed hundreds of times. The flat disk model is considerably weakened by known flight times/distances, known travel times/distances, known shipping times/distances. This is why I presented an alternate model in which the earth is represented as a flat plane and is much less weakened by these things. Generally the problem is that, when a flight time does not support a specific model for the person making the map, that flight does not count (it does not exist, it's a lie, it's inaccurate, etc.).



For supporters of the models that are severely weakened by this evidence and these observations I got all the rebuttals from a flight time superthread. (Pick any one of your rebuttals from the list below) Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0




-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 180 degrees the earth is flat.
-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 179.99984 degrees the earth is slightly concave.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121615#msg121615



-Distances between two cities which are far apart is unknown
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121996#msg121996


-Flight GPS systems are inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441


-GPS systems are based on a round earth therefore will give measurements/distances which support a round earth.
-Aircraft are using instruments which assume round earth coordinates which will support a round earth.
-There is no flat earth map.
-The difference in flight time is based off of flight speed which has yet to be proven.
-The airplane speed and range is based off round systems therefore will give speeds and ranges which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122359#msg122359


-plane speed measurements are unreliable
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122364#msg122364

-there are no flat earth flight programs, systems, GPS etc because the flat earth aircraft navigation fund is nonexistent.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122369#msg122369


-Triangulation as a measurement of distance can be inaccurate because the "known" locations used for triangulation are based on a round earth system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122410#msg122410


-there are almost an infinite number of continental configurations (If a flight disproves flat earth continental configuration 23985729387592873 you then need to test continental configuration 23985729387592874).
-Groundspeed measurement instruments use a round earth coordinate system therefore will give results which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122411#msg122411


-proof is needed that mile measurements on a highway are accurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122423#msg122423

-Google maps is based on a round earth coordinate system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122433#msg122433

-any navigation system based on longitude and latitude is a round earth navigation system (which is most likely used in all navigation systems)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122655#msg122655

-any map, navigation, or measurement system which uses Latitude and Longitude in any way is inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122664#msg122664

-That's not the map of the earth (a variant of there is no map of the earth)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122672#msg122672
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 15, 2019, 07:45:30 PM
What difference should that make? unless you think land distorts in real life the further away you are a static flat earth map is just as accurate.

A static non interactive image has a definitive edge. I am of the belief that the earth does not have an edge. If you travel in a straight line in any direction you will arrive roughly back at the same place you started without teleporting. Kind of like if you were walking on an omnidirectional treadmill


https://youtu.be/r3G_04zol1U

This video outlines the problems with the flat disk model as well as the problems with a static non interactive non moving Bing/mapquest model (at about the 1:39 mark).


Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 15, 2019, 10:15:12 PM
What difference should that make? unless you think land distorts in real life the further away you are a static flat earth map is just as accurate.

A static non interactive image has a definitive edge. I am of the belief that the earth does not have an edge. If you travel in a straight line in any direction you will arrive roughly back at the same place you started without teleporting. Kind of like if you were walking on an omnidirectional treadmill

This video outlines the problems with the flat disk model as well as the problems with a static non interactive non moving Bing/mapquest model (at about the 1:39 mark).

A couple problems with this.

- Omni-directional Treadmill: If you and I are both to meet in Tokyo, both departing from San Francisco at the same time, you flying East, me flying West - your omnidirectional treadmill would be moving one way, mine would be moving the opposite way. How does that work?

- Interactive Bing/Mapquest Model: Doing some more digging, interactivity does not solve any problems. According to Microsoft documentation regarding the scaling (interactivity) of their Bing map, even when zoomed in the map is still based upon WGS84 datum as defined: The WGS 84 datum surface is an oblate spheroid with equatorial radius a = 6378137 m at the equator and flattening f = 1/298.257223563.

From Microsoft:
"The latitude and longitude are assumed to be on the WGS 84 datum. Even though Bing Maps uses a spherical projection, it’s important to convert all geographic coordinates into a common datum, and WGS 84 was chosen to be that datum."

Same for Mapquest as it is powered by OpenStreetMaps, which is based upon WGS84 as well.

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 15, 2019, 10:46:03 PM

A static non interactive image has a definitive edge. I am of the belief that the earth does not have an edge. If you travel in a straight line in any direction you will arrive roughly back at the same place you started without teleporting. Kind of like if you were walking on an omnidirectional treadmill

This video outlines the problems with the flat disk model as well as the problems with a static non interactive non moving Bing/mapquest model (at about the 1:39 mark).

A couple problems with this.

- Omni-directional Treadmill: If you and I are both to meet in Tokyo, both departing from San Francisco at the same time, you flying East, me flying West - your omnidirectional treadmill would be moving one way, mine would be moving the opposite way. How does that work?

I've already explained this and documented it in the thread linked. before. I'll link it again here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14046.msg187564#msg187564

- Interactive Bing/Mapquest Model: Doing some more digging, interactivity does not solve any problems. According to Microsoft documentation regarding the scaling (interactivity) of their Bing map, even when zoomed in the map is still based upon WGS84 datum as defined: The WGS 84 datum surface is an oblate spheroid with equatorial radius a = 6378137 m at the equator and flattening f = 1/298.257223563.

From Microsoft:
"The latitude and longitude are assumed to be on the WGS 84 datum. Even though Bing Maps uses a spherical projection, it’s important to convert all geographic coordinates into a common datum, and WGS 84 was chosen to be that datum."

Same for Mapquest as it is powered by OpenStreetMaps, which is based upon WGS84 as well.

Then you can stand up and proudly say "DOES NOT COUNT" to them as flat earth models. I don't share your view. Your "DOES NOT COUNT" quite frankly "DOES NOT COUNT" to me.

Why don't you find an interactive map, with an interactive scale, which you think does count.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 15, 2019, 11:22:23 PM

A static non interactive image has a definitive edge. I am of the belief that the earth does not have an edge. If you travel in a straight line in any direction you will arrive roughly back at the same place you started without teleporting. Kind of like if you were walking on an omnidirectional treadmill

This video outlines the problems with the flat disk model as well as the problems with a static non interactive non moving Bing/mapquest model (at about the 1:39 mark).

A couple problems with this.

- Omni-directional Treadmill: If you and I are both to meet in Tokyo, both departing from San Francisco at the same time, you flying East, me flying West - your omnidirectional treadmill would be moving one way, mine would be moving the opposite way. How does that work?

I've already explained this and documented it in the thread linked. before. I'll link it again here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14046.msg187564#msg187564

Yes, you have explained and documented this before. And from that thread, your explanation and documentation mystified everyone else. But maybe we're just all daft. But essentially the same conceptual problems you have with the common FE AE map/model are the same problems you should have with an 'FE' Bing style map/model.

FE AE map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially in the southern hemisphere. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No
'FE' Bing style map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially when traveling east or west off the map. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No

- Interactive Bing/Mapquest Model: Doing some more digging, interactivity does not solve any problems. According to Microsoft documentation regarding the scaling (interactivity) of their Bing map, even when zoomed in the map is still based upon WGS84 datum as defined: The WGS 84 datum surface is an oblate spheroid with equatorial radius a = 6378137 m at the equator and flattening f = 1/298.257223563.

From Microsoft:
"The latitude and longitude are assumed to be on the WGS 84 datum. Even though Bing Maps uses a spherical projection, it’s important to convert all geographic coordinates into a common datum, and WGS 84 was chosen to be that datum."

Same for Mapquest as it is powered by OpenStreetMaps, which is based upon WGS84 as well.

Then you can stand up and proudly say "DOES NOT COUNT" to them as flat earth models. I don't share your view. Your "DOES NOT COUNT" quite frankly "DOES NOT COUNT" to me.

Why don't you find an interactive map, with an interactive scale, which you think does count.

I never uttered the words, "does not count". I'm just merely pointing out that "interactivity" or not doesn't matter because these interactive maps you've referenced are globe based regardless of whether you're zoomed in or not. If you don't like that fact, take it up with Microsoft.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 15, 2019, 11:54:12 PM
Yes, you have explained and documented this before. And from that thread, your explanation and documentation mystified everyone else. But maybe we're just all daft. But essentially the same conceptual problems you have with the common FE AE map/model are the same problems you should have with an 'FE' Bing style map/model.

FE AE map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially in the southern hemisphere. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No
'FE' Bing style map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially when traveling east or west off the map. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No

You can't travel off of the bing map. I've sent screenshots to demonstrate how you can travel east and wind up where you started as well as travel west and wind up where you started without traveling off of the edge of anything.  The map is interactive.

If you look at a map of Texas and drive outside of the Texas border does the edge of the map represent the end of all existence? no it does not.

The same logic applies to a RE model. You can't take a flat 2d static image of a globe and demonstrate these kinds of flights. You can do it with a globe because the globe is interactive and can spin.



Refusing to accept an interactive map and FORCING the use of a static not interactive image to represent a planet which is not static is the same as me doing this to you:



Draw a line on this static image of the round earth model which demonstrates a flight from San Francisco to Tokyo:

One line in the unedited image below. If you can't draw such a line the earth can't possibly be a globe!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/CAk62WQ.jpg)

these interactive maps you've referenced are globe

Ok. I got it. You believe they are globe maps. I've known that for some time now.

I never uttered the words, "does not count".

 So you are saying that, even though you believe they are globe maps, they do count as FE maps?

Because if you are saying that these maps "DO NOT COUNT" as FE maps because you believe they are globe maps then my original statement stands
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 16, 2019, 12:38:25 AM
Yes, you have explained and documented this before. And from that thread, your explanation and documentation mystified everyone else. But maybe we're just all daft. But essentially the same conceptual problems you have with the common FE AE map/model are the same problems you should have with an 'FE' Bing style map/model.

FE AE map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially in the southern hemisphere. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No
'FE' Bing style map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially when traveling east or west off the map. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No

You can't travel off of the bing map. I've sent screenshots to demonstrate how you can travel east and wind up where you started as well as travel west and wind up where you started without traveling off of the edge of anything.  The map is interactive.

Hmmm, maybe I am just incapable of conveying what I think I am trying to convey. Entirely possible.

If you look at a map of Texas and drive outside of the Texas border does the edge of the map represent the end of all existence? no it does not.

We are not talking about a map of Texas, we are talking about a map of the world.

The same logic applies to a RE model. You can't take a flat 2d static image of a globe and demonstrate these kinds of flights. You can do it with a globe because the globe is interactive and can spin.

Refusing to accept an interactive map and FORCING the use of a static not interactive image to represent a planet which is not static is the same as me doing this to you:

Draw a line on this static image of the round earth model which demonstrates a flight from San Francisco to Tokyo:

One line in the unedited image below. If you can't draw such a line the earth can't possibly be a globe!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/CAk62WQ.jpg)

The same logic doesn't apply because we are talking about 3D versus 2D.

these interactive maps you've referenced are globe

Ok. I got it. You believe they are globe maps. I've known that for some time now.

I never uttered the words, "does not count".

 So you are saying that, even though you believe they are globe maps, they do count as FE maps?

Because if you are saying that these maps "DO NOT COUNT" as FE maps because you believe they are globe maps then my original statement stands

Ask yourself what the question is that's being asked in the OP and why.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 16, 2019, 01:08:43 AM
The same logic doesn't apply because we are talking about 3D versus 2D.

A quick glance around shows that i'm in a 3D room in a 3D state in a 3D country on a 3D planet so the same logic does apply.



Ask yourself what the question is that's being asked in the OP and why.

That does not answer my question. A simple yes or no would suffice. Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?

Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 16, 2019, 01:44:45 AM
The same logic doesn't apply because we are talking about 3D versus 2D.

A quick glance around shows that i'm in a 3D room in a 3D state in a 3D country on a 3D planet so the same logic does apply.



Ask yourself what the question is that's being asked in the OP and why.

That does not answer my question. A simple yes or no would suffice. Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?

Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

You seem to be the only one who can answer their own questions. So ask yourself why this topic exists.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 16, 2019, 03:08:33 AM


That does not answer my question. A simple yes or no would suffice. Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?

Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

You seem to be the only one who can answer their own questions. So ask yourself why this topic exists.


Was that a yes or a no?


I'll ask again because i'm not sure what the answer is.

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?


Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 16, 2019, 08:12:19 AM


That does not answer my question. A simple yes or no would suffice. Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?

Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

You seem to be the only one who can answer their own questions. So ask yourself why this topic exists.


Was that a yes or a no?


I'll ask again because i'm not sure what the answer is.

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?


Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

My beliefs have never played a role in this discussion.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: reer on July 16, 2019, 09:57:40 AM
@TomInAustin, @iamcpc

What you are saying is that none of the FEers care two hoots about reality. If they cannot build a flat map from the information which they claim is acceptable (flight times) then, in that case only, the data is wrong.

It's a game of half a dozen I lose, 6 you win. There is no fun left in  arguing in a case like that, so I'M OUTTA HERE.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: TomInAustin on July 16, 2019, 02:37:08 PM
@TomInAustin, @iamcpc

What you are saying is that none of the FEers care two hoots about reality. If they cannot build a flat map from the information which they claim is acceptable (flight times) then, in that case only, the data is wrong.

It's a game of half a dozen I lose, 6 you win. There is no fun left in  arguing in a case like that, so I'M OUTTA HERE.

How is the data wrong?   Many companies gamble with huge amounts of money based on distance data.  Shipping, Airlines, Cruise Lines etc
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 16, 2019, 04:36:30 PM
My beliefs have never played a role in this discussion.

Ok i'll try wording the question differently? I drew lots of lines on the maps for you. Now you're just trolling by REFUSING to answer a yes or no question.


I'll ask again because i'm not sure what the answer is.

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because the map website says they are based on a globe projection?


Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps




@TomInAustin, @iamcpc

What you are saying is that none of the FEers care two hoots about reality. If they cannot build a flat map from the information which they claim is acceptable (flight times) then, in that case only, the data is wrong.

It's a game of half a dozen I lose, 6 you win. There is no fun left in  arguing in a case like that, so I'M OUTTA HERE.

Flat maps have been built but none agreed upon.

For example on an infinite plane earth you can't map infinity
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 16, 2019, 06:45:55 PM
I'll answer your question, if a map is literally based on a globe projection then it does not count as a 'flat earth' map. It is a 'flat' earth map but not a 'flat earth' map. It's a map of the globe. Maps just happen to be easier presented as flat, hence why there exists 'flat' maps of the globe. Bing is simply a map of the globe and the reason it loops infinitely is because it's a ball. Why would it loop if it were flat as the projection presents?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 16, 2019, 07:25:53 PM
does not count

This is what i'm saying is lame. It's lame for someone to say a map does not count just like it's lame for someone to say a southern hemisphere flight does not count.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 16, 2019, 08:59:15 PM
does not count

This is what i'm saying is lame. It's lame for someone to say a map does not count just like it's lame for someone to say a southern hemisphere flight does not count.

I'm not following. It's lame for Microsoft to state that their Bing Map system is based upon a spherical Earth; with a spherical Earth coordinate system and spherical Earth measurements/distances?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 16, 2019, 09:16:18 PM
iamcpc stop focusing on people telling you globe maps don't count as flat earth maps and concentrate on why people are telling you globe maps don't count as flat earth maps. you can disagree all you want but they're still globe maps, so by literal definition they aren't 'flat earth' maps.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: kopfverderber on July 16, 2019, 10:07:37 PM
Hi all, I just read the whole thread and wanted to contribute to the discussion.

@iamcpc  If you travel on the earth in a straight line for long enough you will eventually arrive back to to the point from when you started. Many FE models are incompatible with this fact, but from what I understood you agree to this.

Most people will take this as proof that the earth is round, but you propose an alternative flat earth model where you can travel in a straight line and arrive at the starting point. In your model the earth is on an finite plane with no borders.  So we humans are confined to this finite plane that we cannot leave. Is that correct?

From my limited understanding this model of yours is not compatible with euclidean space. It would require space to be curved in way that the universe has the form of a extremely small manifold, but that's just my conjecture.

If we would be able to fly high enough would we also reach what is under our feet?

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 17, 2019, 12:56:29 AM
I'm not following. It's lame for Microsoft to state that their Bing Map system is based upon a spherical Earth; with a spherical Earth coordinate system and spherical Earth measurements/distances?

Stack,

you refused to answer a simple yes or no question. so I will refuse to answer your question.



iamcpc stop focusing on people telling you globe maps don't count as flat earth maps


It's hard to do when that has literally been 90% of this thread

and concentrate on why people are telling you globe maps don't count as flat earth maps. you can disagree all you want but they're still globe maps, so by literal definition they aren't 'flat earth' maps.

so stop focusing on why other people say "DOES NOT COUNT" and start focusing on why it "DOES NOT COUNT"

The whole premise of "DOES NOT COUNT" is super lame when used in a discussion. I can claim that about anything for literally any reason



but you propose an alternative flat earth model where you can travel in a straight line and arrive at the starting point. In your model the earth is on an finite plane with no borders.  So we humans are confined to this finite plane that we cannot leave. Is that correct?

no. I believe that we can and have left this planet and that we have landed on the moon.

If we would be able to fly high enough would we also reach what is under our feet?
I don't think so.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 17, 2019, 01:45:21 AM
I'm not following. It's lame for Microsoft to state that their Bing Map system is based upon a spherical Earth; with a spherical Earth coordinate system and spherical Earth measurements/distances?

Stack,

you refused to answer a simple yes or no question. so I will refuse to answer your question.

How very adult of you.

It's not a yes or no question. Here's a dialogue I made up as an example:

Question, it appears that according to many in the FE community there isn't an accurate, usable FE map. How should we go about actually making one?

Flat Earther: There is an FE map. It's called Bing Map. It's flat and I can zoom in and out of it.

Globe Earther: Actually, according to Microsoft and their documentation their Bing Map system is based upon a spherical Earth; with a spherical Earth coordinate system and spherical Earth measurements/distances.

Flat Earther: What are you saying, that the Bing Map DOES NOT COUNT as an FE map?!?!

Globe Earther: I'm just saying that it would be weird and ironic for an FEr to say that Bing is an FE map when clearly Microsoft says it is not. I mean it is a 'flat' Earth map, as opposed to the 3D Globe it represents in 2D, but it's not a map of The Flat Earth. You know, that thing where people believe the earth is actually flat and not spherical...

Flat Earther
: Well that's lame, you could say DOES NOT COUNT about anything!

Globe Earther: Well I suppose you could, but I'm not saying it, Microsoft is, about their own map system. And the entire purpose of the question, "How should we go about actually making one? (an FE Map)" is because apparently there is no Flat Earth map that anyone seems to know of that is either not at all accurate with reality or is not based upon a Globe Earth. If you know of a map that is both accurate with reality and is not based upon a Globe Earth, lay it on us. Job done.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 17, 2019, 04:53:10 AM
How very adult of you.

About as adult as ignoring a simple yes or no question.


It's not a yes or no question.




This is, very clearly, a yes or no question:

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because the map website says they are based on a globe projection?


Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 17, 2019, 05:23:55 AM
How very adult of you.

About as adult as ignoring a simple yes or no question.

It's not a yes or no question.

This is, very clearly, a yes or no question:

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because the map website says they are based on a globe projection?

Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

I want to be crystal clear here.
When you use 'FE', do you mean the royal FE? As in The Flat Earth, the belief that the earth is actually flat and not spherical?

Ex., Yes = Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps as they do not represent The Flat Earth, aka 'FE', which is defined as the earth being actually flat and not spherical.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: Bad Puppy on July 17, 2019, 11:01:58 AM
How very adult of you.

About as adult as ignoring a simple yes or no question.


It's not a yes or no question.




This is, very clearly, a yes or no question:

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because the map website says they are based on a globe projection?


Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

Bing maps does NOT represent the earth as a flat plane.  It represents a globe that is projected onto a flat plane.  Do you see and understand the difference?

And, as stack said. In one word.  Yes.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: Bikini Polaris on July 17, 2019, 11:28:20 AM
Before even starting to discuss distances which will be heavily disputed (with each individual accepting the distances which support their own model while rejecting distances which weaken their own model) why don't we just start with the continents and their locations. For example North America is North of South America. China and Russia are in Asia. Etc.

I do like iamcpc's approach. Maybe a more fruitful topic would be "How to make FEs come together and agree on some point of references for a map"? But for that I'd hope that FEs would really like to be a united community, even though I often find they prefer to point fingers at each other and split at atomic levels.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: kopfverderber on July 17, 2019, 12:54:17 PM
@iamcpc

I understand you are providing a 2D map of earth with accurate distances, but your map has some glaring issues. Stack and other posters are pointing at these issues and it looks to me you are not providing valid explanations.

If the earth is flat we should be able draw a 2D map of the earth with a constant scale. However the scale of the Bing map you provided varies with latitude. For that reason it's difficult for other people to see how can  that map possibly represent a flat surface.

It's a question of basic geometry.

Let's try an experiment:

I will make the following three assumptions, please let me know if you agree with them:
1. A square is flat shape with four straight sides of equal length where every interior angle is a right angle. Would you agree to that definition?
2. The surface of the earth is flat or nearly flat. Would you agree to that?
3. If you travel describing a square on a flat surface you will end up arriving at the point from where you started after completing the square. Would you agree to that?

Now the experiment. I will travel a square with 7.000 km sides using real world distances and city positions:

1. I start at Belem (Brasil) and travel 7.000 km East, I arrive to Kinshasha (roughly).
2. Now I turn 90 degrees left and travel another 7.000 km, I arrive roughly to Stockolm
3. I turn left 90 degrees and travel 7.000 km, I arrive 500 km west of Anchorage in Alaska
4. I turn left 90 degrees  for the last time and travel another 7000 km, I'm now standing in the middle of the pacific ocean,  somewhere in Micronesia.

Do you agree that my route follows a square? If so could you please explain why my trip can't close the square at Belem?

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 17, 2019, 07:28:36 PM
I want to be crystal clear here.
When you use 'FE', do you mean the royal FE? As in The Flat Earth, the belief that the earth is actually flat and not spherical?

Ex., Yes = Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps as they do not represent The Flat Earth, aka 'FE', which is defined as the earth being actually flat and not spherical.

I'm so sorry. I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm just trying to figure out if you answer is a yes or a no?



Bing maps does NOT represent the earth as a flat plane.  It represents a globe that is projected onto a flat plane.  Do you see and understand the difference?

And, as stack said. In one word.  Yes.

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map then that flat plane map represents the earth as a flat plane. Isn't that the whole point?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 17, 2019, 08:01:46 PM
I want to be crystal clear here.
When you use 'FE', do you mean the royal FE? As in The Flat Earth, the belief that the earth is actually flat and not spherical?

Ex., Yes = Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps as they do not represent The Flat Earth, aka 'FE', which is defined as the earth being actually flat and not spherical.

I'm so sorry. I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm just trying to figure out if you answer is a yes or a no?

I can't answer your question without you answering my question first.


Bing maps does NOT represent the earth as a flat plane.  It represents a globe that is projected onto a flat plane.  Do you see and understand the difference?

And, as stack said. In one word.  Yes.

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map then that flat plane map represents the earth as a flat plane. Isn't that the whole point?

You're still shaving around the edges. The correct phrasing of the statement should be:

"If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the Globe earth as a flat map, maintaining a Globe Earth coordinate system and Globe Earth measurements/distances. It is not a map of The Flat Earth, the earth shape where some believe the physical shape of the Earth is flat, not spherical. It is a map of the Globe/Spherical earth that has been projected on to a flattened surface for ease of use and transport."
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 17, 2019, 08:35:22 PM
I can't answer your question without you answering my question first.

yes you can.


You're still shaving around the edges. The correct phrasing of the statement should be:

"If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the Globe earth as a flat map, maintaining a Globe Earth coordinate system and Globe Earth measurements/distances. It is not a map of The Flat Earth, the earth shape where some believe the physical shape of the Earth is flat, not spherical. It is a map of the Globe/Spherical earth that has been projected on to a flattened surface for ease of use and transport."

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the Globe earth as a flat map
If you project a sphere map Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the sphere map earth as a flat map
If you project a oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the oblate spheroid earth as a flat map
If you project a flat disk Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the flat disk earth as a flat map
If you project a egg Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the egg earth as a flat map
If you project a flat disk Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the flat disk earth as a flat map
If you project a convexly curved disk Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the convexly curved disk earth as a flat map

If you notice the shape of the earth does not matter. project the earth, of any shape, onto a flat map then the flat map represents the earth.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: kopfverderber on July 17, 2019, 09:14:26 PM
If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map then that flat plane map represents the earth as a flat plane. Isn't that the whole point?

Yes you can represent a sphere on a plane using different techniques, but the fact that an object is represented on a plane, doesn't make it a representation of a plane.

The map is a plane, that much is clear. But the map can't be representing a plane and a sphere at the same time. I think you are confusing two things: what the map IS geometrically (a plane) and what the map REPRESENTS (a sphere).

Let's go step by step:
1. IF you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map THEN the Flat plane map is  projection of a globe. Correct?
2. IF a flat plane map is a projection of a globe, THEN the flat plane map represents a globe in a plane. Correct?
3. IF the flat plane map represents a globe THEN the flat plane map does not represent a plane. Correct?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 17, 2019, 09:33:54 PM
If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map then that flat plane map represents the earth as a flat plane. Isn't that the whole point?

Yes you can represent a sphere on a plane using different techniques, but the fact that an object is represented on a plane, doesn't make it a representation of a plane.

The map is a plane, that much is clear. But the map can't be representing a plane and a sphere at the same time. I think you are confusing two things: what the map IS geometrically (a plane) and what the map REPRESENTS (a sphere).

Let's go step by step:
1. IF you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map THEN the Flat plane map is  projection of a globe. Correct?
2. IF a flat plane map is a projection of a globe, THEN the flat plane map represents a globe in a plane. Correct?
3. IF the flat plane map represents a globe THEN the flat plane map does not represent a plane. Correct?


If you project the Earth of any shape onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth (regardless of it's shape) as a flat plane. It's shape agnostic. Let me give you some examples:


If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.



Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 17, 2019, 10:21:58 PM
If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map then that flat plane map represents the earth as a flat plane. Isn't that the whole point?

Yes you can represent a sphere on a plane using different techniques, but the fact that an object is represented on a plane, doesn't make it a representation of a plane.

The map is a plane, that much is clear. But the map can't be representing a plane and a sphere at the same time. I think you are confusing two things: what the map IS geometrically (a plane) and what the map REPRESENTS (a sphere).

Let's go step by step:
1. IF you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map THEN the Flat plane map is  projection of a globe. Correct?
2. IF a flat plane map is a projection of a globe, THEN the flat plane map represents a globe in a plane. Correct?
3. IF the flat plane map represents a globe THEN the flat plane map does not represent a plane. Correct?
If you project the Earth of any shape onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth (regardless of it's shape) as a flat plane. It's shape agnostic.

Incorrect and you are entirely, after all this time, completely missing the core of what a cartographic 'projection' is. Gerardus Mercator is spinning in his grave right now.

Let me give you some examples:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.

Fixed it for you:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Sphere Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the globe Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the spheroid Earth on a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the oblate spheroid Earth on a flat plane.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: kopfverderber on July 17, 2019, 10:38:26 PM

If you project the Earth of any shape onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth (regardless of it's shape) as a flat plane. It's shape agnostic. Let me give you some examples:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.


The point is not HOW you represent a figure: ''as a flat plane'' as you say
The point is WHAT does your map represent: a sphere, a globe, a spheroid, an oblate

Because the point is not HOW am I representing an object, the point WHAT is the object.

What does the Bing map represent? It represents a globe earth
How does the Bing map represent the earth? As a projection of a sphere on a plane

You seem to think (please correct if wrong) that a FE map is a map that represents the earth as a flat plane. That definition is not correct. A FE map is a map that represents an earth that is flat.  The Bing map is not representing an earth that is flat.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 18, 2019, 04:18:51 PM
by literal definition they aren't 'flat earth' maps.
That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 18, 2019, 06:35:20 PM
That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.

I agree and this is the same point that i'm making. Even in the RE model there are like multiple shapes the earth could be such as a sphere, spheroid, oblate spheroid, globe etc.


People constantly look at something, such as a 2d map which is widely accepted as a map of the earth, and proudly proclaim EARTH IS A SPHERE! What about a spheroid? What about an oblate spheroid? What about some other shape?



Fixed it for you:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Sphere Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the globe Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the spheroid Earth on a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the oblate spheroid Earth on a flat plane.


You didn't fix anything. I had basically said the exact same thing here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15083.msg196532#msg196532

The shape of the earth is still moot.

If you project the earth (of any shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of any shape).
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: inquisitive on July 18, 2019, 07:57:51 PM
That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.

I agree and this is the same point that i'm making. Even in the RE model there are like multiple shapes the earth could be such as a sphere, spheroid, oblate spheroid, globe etc.


People constantly look at something, such as a 2d map which is widely accepted as a map of the earth, and proudly proclaim EARTH IS A SPHERE! What about a spheroid? What about an oblate spheroid? What about some other shape?



Fixed it for you:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Sphere Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the globe Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the spheroid Earth on a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the oblate spheroid Earth on a flat plane.


You didn't fix anything. I had basically said the exact same thing here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15083.msg196532#msg196532

The shape of the earth is still moot.

If you project the earth (of any shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of any shape).
Do you consider the WGS-84 model to be incorrect?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 18, 2019, 08:02:31 PM
That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.

I agree and this is the same point that i'm making. Even in the RE model there are like multiple shapes the earth could be such as a sphere, spheroid, oblate spheroid, globe etc.


People constantly look at something, such as a 2d map which is widely accepted as a map of the earth, and proudly proclaim EARTH IS A SPHERE! What about a spheroid? What about an oblate spheroid? What about some other shape?



Fixed it for you:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Sphere Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the globe Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the spheroid Earth on a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the oblate spheroid Earth on a flat plane.


You didn't fix anything. I had basically said the exact same thing here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15083.msg196532#msg196532

The shape of the earth is still moot.

If you project the earth (of any shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of any shape).

Maybe this is a semantics thing, idk. But the sentence to me should read:

If you project the earth (of a specific shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of that specific shape).
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 18, 2019, 08:07:59 PM
Do you consider the WGS-84 model to be incorrect?

I've read about that model. Here's the problem. In college the highest math I took was calc 2.

The math behind this more of of topology which is something that you would take after calc 3.

I would have to be a math major to have a good idea if the WGS-84 model is correct or not.


Even taking calc 2 this image below might as well have been written in french.
(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mohammad_Sahafi/publication/325617744/figure/fig1/AS:634757352271873@1528349354570/WGS-84-Cartesian-and-geodetic-coordinate-systems.png)




Maybe this is a semantics thing, idk. But the sentence to me should read:
If you project the earth (of a specific shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of that specific shape).



I had my friend's sister who is an English major look at this sentence:


If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the Globe earth as a flat map


She said that saying globe and flat multiple times is repetitive and should not be done.

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that map represents the earth.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 18, 2019, 08:43:35 PM
Maybe this is a semantics thing, idk. But the sentence to me should read:
If you project the earth (of a specific shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of that specific shape).



I had my friend's sister who is an English major look at this sentence:


If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the Globe earth as a flat map


She said that saying globe and flat multiple times is repetitive and should not be done.

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that map represents the earth.

Great on the English lesson. But the problem is without me doing that you still don’t get it. I’m afraid you never will. Half of me thinks you’re just playing a game. And that’s fine. Carry on.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 18, 2019, 09:37:03 PM
Great on the English lesson. But the problem is without me doing that you still don’t get it. I’m afraid you never will.


Oh no. I understand you. I just disagree. This is where we are different.  You don't understand the point that both Pete and I have made.

Half of me thinks you’re just playing a game. And that’s fine. Carry on.

All of me thinks that you are playing a game. You have done things like demanding arbitrary lines be drawn on static images, looking at an image or map and saying the earth is round based on assumptions, repeated "DOES NOT COUNT" claims,  refusing to answer a simple yes or no question, and making erroneous grammar corrections.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: kopfverderber on July 18, 2019, 10:18:13 PM
I'm not a native English speaker. English is actually my third language by order of daily usage, so I will not try to correct anyone's grammar. After reading through the post and making several contributions (which btw went largely ignored), I think both of you iamcpc and stack are reasonable persons yet you are not able to reach an agreement on a simple matter.

The thread title is asking how to make a FE map. Iamcpc considers the bing map already a valid FE map, so there's no need to make one. On the other hand, Stack and I do not think the bing map is a FE map.  To me the reason of the mutual misunderstanding is that each of us has a different idea of what "FE Map" means, and this could be a language problem.

FE Map stand for Flat Earth Map. That's an adjective (flat) and two nouns (earth and map). When we say this in English, it's not clear if the adjective Flat is referring to the noun Earth, the noun Map or both. So I'll rephrase it in the hope that it will become clearer:

What is a "FE Map"to you?
a) Flat map of the earth
b) Map of the flat earth
c) Flat map of the flat earth

To me a FE Map is b) Map of the flat earth
The bing map is a) flat map of the earth, and more specifically a "flat map of the round earth".

I also think this confusion would't exists in other languages.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 18, 2019, 10:21:25 PM
by literal definition they aren't 'flat earth' maps.
That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.

I’m not sure I’m following. Are you saying that google, for example, is assuming that earth is a globe and therefore they use a globe projection for their maps?

If so, which is actually a fair statement, I think that is different than what iam has been trying to convey.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 18, 2019, 11:59:32 PM
Great on the English lesson. But the problem is without me doing that you still don’t get it. I’m afraid you never will.

Oh no. I understand you. I just disagree. This is where we are different.  You don't understand the point that both Pete and I have made.

I could be wrong, but I don't think you and Pete are actually saying the same thing. Feel free to correct my thinking.

Half of me thinks you’re just playing a game. And that’s fine. Carry on.

All of me thinks that you are playing a game. You have done things like demanding arbitrary lines be drawn on static images, looking at an image or map and saying the earth is round based on assumptions, repeated "DOES NOT COUNT" claims,  refusing to answer a simple yes or no question, and making erroneous grammar corrections.

No one has demanded anything from you. Unless you possess a distinct absence of free will and self control, it's entirely up to you how you would like to engage and participate.

A yes or no answer sometimes requires that the terms and intent of the question are understood by both parties. For instance:

Have you stopped beating your wife? A simple yes or no is required.

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 19, 2019, 12:42:11 PM
by literal definition they aren't 'flat earth' maps.
That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.
For sure they are projections of the earth, but by some strange coincidence it matches a spheroid shape pretty darn well and doesn't match a flat shape very well at all. I'll put my bets on the projections being from some kind of globe rather than some kind of flat shape any day. I'm not simply saying it's round because it's round, I'm saying it's observably not flat if we're basing it on the Bing map. That and the Bing map is well documented as not flat. If the authors of the map got that wrong then why on earth would anyone trust them document or map out a flat earth anyway? If I were mapping out the world under the assumption that it's flat I wouldn't start by using a map that doesn't fit the assumed shape.

You only need to go to Greenland and Africa to know for sure if they're the same size, both places that are perfectly accessible. If anyone can prove they're roughly the same size in real life then I will by all means admit that Bing is plausibly a flat earth map.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: Bad Puppy on July 19, 2019, 02:53:29 PM
This thread has all but derailed to a discussion of semantics.

To get back on track, here's my thought on step one:

Start from scratch.  Don't use any existing map, flat or round, to make a FE map. 

As is stated repeatedly by the FE community, a FE map does not exist.
So, using what you believe is "the most accurate" map won't do you any good.

Obviously, this is something that would need to be done by people with resources at their disposal.  At the very least, I would think you would need:

A camera
Rangefinder
A means of getting really high in the sky to take photos
Software to stitch those photos together
A log book
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: kopfverderber on July 20, 2019, 10:51:04 PM
I have the impression the FE community is happy with the maps they already have and there is a lack of interest in making new ones. I'll admit the disc map with the north pole in the center looks pretty.



Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 22, 2019, 05:40:35 AM
This thread has all but derailed to a discussion of semantics.

To get back on track, here's my thought on step one:

Start from scratch.  Don't use any existing map, flat or round, to make a FE map. 

As is stated repeatedly by the FE community, a FE map does not exist.

Many members of the FE community believe that there is a map. Many claim there is no map but use a map to accurately navigate the earth on a day to day basis.



I have the impression the FE community is happy with the maps they already have and there is a lack of interest in making new ones. I'll admit the disc map with the north pole in the center looks pretty.

I have the impression the FE community largely disagrees on the map.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 22, 2019, 09:17:26 PM
This thread has all but derailed to a discussion of semantics.

To get back on track, here's my thought on step one:

Start from scratch.  Don't use any existing map, flat or round, to make a FE map. 

As is stated repeatedly by the FE community, a FE map does not exist.

Many members of the FE community believe that there is a map. Many claim there is no map but use a map to accurately navigate the earth on a day to day basis.



I have the impression the FE community is happy with the maps they already have and there is a lack of interest in making new ones. I'll admit the disc map with the north pole in the center looks pretty.

I have the impression the FE community largely disagrees on the map.

Right, and for all intents and purposes, the point of this thread was to 'maybe' come up with a way to create The Flat Earth map that represents The Flat Earth and also represents reality. And that starting assumption is that there is no The Flat Earth map. Whether true or false, that is the starting assumption. So, given that, how might one start to measure an area of land from a flat earth perspective. Can we use existing spherical measurements from Geodesy and flatten them out? I don't know. Do we have to march across land and physically survey from a flat earth perspective? I don't know. These are the questions. 
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 23, 2019, 09:18:58 PM
Right, and for all intents and purposes, the point of this thread was to 'maybe' come up with a way to create The Flat Earth map that represents The Flat Earth and also represents reality. And that starting assumption is that there is no The Flat Earth map. Whether true or false, that is the starting assumption. So, given that, how might one start to measure an area of land from a flat earth perspective. Can we use existing spherical measurements from Geodesy and flatten them out? I don't know. Do we have to march across land and physically survey from a flat earth perspective? I don't know. These are the questions.


The problem comes with the many different flat earth models. They can't all be right. I still think that a good starting point, before even discussing measurements, is to all unanimously agree on basic things like Mexico sharing a border with the United States and Canada being in North America.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 24, 2019, 12:40:56 AM
Right, and for all intents and purposes, the point of this thread was to 'maybe' come up with a way to create The Flat Earth map that represents The Flat Earth and also represents reality. And that starting assumption is that there is no The Flat Earth map. Whether true or false, that is the starting assumption. So, given that, how might one start to measure an area of land from a flat earth perspective. Can we use existing spherical measurements from Geodesy and flatten them out? I don't know. Do we have to march across land and physically survey from a flat earth perspective? I don't know. These are the questions.


The problem comes with the many different flat earth models. They can't all be right. I still think that a good starting point, before even discussing measurements, is to all unanimously agree on basic things like Mexico sharing a border with the United States and Canada being in North America.

Agreed on the problem of the different models. I think there is a general consensus of, let's say, what countries border each other. The problem comes with the models, as in maybe how the continents are laid out. Each FE model solves 1 problem and then creates 5 others in it's wake. It's pretty much why all others have failed in coming up with an FE map. I was checking out some Globebusters stuff last night. A year or two ago they were on about a kind of 3 pole model. Even they abandoned the whole effort. There's the 2 pole Lambert FE model, but that gets ruined by real world observations of the Sun. Then of course we all know the problems with the AE model.

I just don't know how one even begins.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 25, 2019, 04:28:19 PM
think there is a general consensus of, let's say, what countries border each other.

I disagree. On the other forums someone was making a map of the earth only based on Northern Hemisphere flights. I would not agree with his continental configuration.

There were also several members who adhered to a more biblical flat disk model where Jerusalem was a the center of the flat disk which was at the center of the universe.  I would not agree with their continental configurations.

Furthermore there is this great ice wall thing. Does it exist? In my FE model it does not exist. Some models it does not, and some models the ice wall is an unknown.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 25, 2019, 05:48:44 PM
think there is a general consensus of, let's say, what countries border each other.

I disagree. On the other forums someone was making a map of the earth only based on Northern Hemisphere flights. I would not agree with his continental configuration.

There were also several members who adhered to a more biblical flat disk model where Jerusalem was a the center of the flat disk which was at the center of the universe.  I would not agree with their continental configurations.

Furthermore there is this great ice wall thing. Does it exist? In my FE model it does not exist. Some models it does not, and some models the ice wall is an unknown.

Yes, but none of them work, they are not accurate and suffer all the same problems that creating an accurate flat earth map tries to solve.

I'm painfully aware of the flight time map. It's north pole centered. It doesn't account for taxiing or delays. The criteria for a flight to be valid is vague at best. For instance if a flight doesn't fit on the model, no matter the evidence for the flight existing, it is discarded as being fake. Which is, well, backwards at best.

Ice wall doesn't really matter. Other than the fact that in some cases Antarctica exists as we know it and in other cases Antarctica is the icewall. But that's not so much of a burning issue.

I don't know much about the Jerusalem centered map, but I assume it just centers on the city instead of the north pole and runs into all of the same problems as the AE map does.

I say that most have the countries next to the right countries continent-ally speaking because if you lift any of the continents up and off of, let's say the AE map and just laid them down again, their forms are somewhat correct:

(https://i.imgur.com/jqetm9h.jpg?1)
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 26, 2019, 07:44:34 PM
Yes, but none of them work, they are not accurate and suffer all the same problems that creating an accurate flat earth map tries to solve.

The one that works the best is the bing map model

Ice wall doesn't really matter. Other than the fact that in some cases Antarctica exists as we know it and in other cases Antarctica is the icewall. But that's not so much of a burning issue.

Yes it does. I define south as the direction you must travel to reach the south pole. The ice wall models don't have a South pole therefore don't have South. I can't accept a map which does not have South.
I don't know much about the Jerusalem centered map, but I assume it just centers on the city instead of the north pole and runs into all of the same problems as the AE map does.


I say that most have the countries next to the right countries continent-ally speaking because if you lift any of the continents up and off of, let's say the AE map and just laid them down again, their forms are somewhat correct:

(https://i.imgur.com/jqetm9h.jpg?1)

The map must be interactive. It can't be a static image just like a Globe can't be a static image. It MUST be interactive.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 26, 2019, 09:46:08 PM
Yes, but none of them work, they are not accurate and suffer all the same problems that creating an accurate flat earth map tries to solve.

The one that works the best is the bing map model

Ice wall doesn't really matter. Other than the fact that in some cases Antarctica exists as we know it and in other cases Antarctica is the icewall. But that's not so much of a burning issue.

Yes it does. I define south as the direction you must travel to reach the south pole. The ice wall models don't have a South pole therefore don't have South. I can't accept a map which does not have South.
I don't know much about the Jerusalem centered map, but I assume it just centers on the city instead of the north pole and runs into all of the same problems as the AE map does.


I say that most have the countries next to the right countries continent-ally speaking because if you lift any of the continents up and off of, let's say the AE map and just laid them down again, their forms are somewhat correct:

(https://i.imgur.com/jqetm9h.jpg?1)

The map must be interactive. It can't be a static image just like a Globe can't be a static image. It MUST be interactive.
No, one way to look at this is we have physical globes in classrooms that are not interactive and the image on those spheroids does not change. Can you have a physical flat map that is unchanging and accurate? If your answer is no (which it seemingly is) then obviously your flat map is not physically, accurately matching the real world.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 26, 2019, 09:47:55 PM
Yes, but none of them work, they are not accurate and suffer all the same problems that creating an accurate flat earth map tries to solve.

The one that works the best is the bing map model

So from way, way up in space, theoretically, would the Bing flat earth look like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/i7i7yVo.jpg)
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 27, 2019, 08:31:58 AM

So from way, way up in space, theoretically, would the Bing flat earth look like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/i7i7yVo.jpg)

No. That is a static interactive image which is not representative of how, I believe, our Earth functions. Our Earth is interactive and therefore can only be mapped using some sort of interactive map.

In the RE model it's called a globe which is interactive and spins.

In this specific FE model the map is very similar to Bing maps.

In addition I would stop focusing so much on what image we think our visual cortex would make in our brains. Our ability to perceive things with our eyes is VERY VERY limited and our visual cortex is easily fooled into creating images that do not match reality whatsoever.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 27, 2019, 09:08:49 AM

So from way, way up in space, theoretically, would the Bing flat earth look like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/i7i7yVo.jpg)

No. That is a static interactive image which is not representative of how, I believe, our Earth functions. Our Earth is interactive and therefore can only be mapped using some sort of interactive map.

In the RE model it's called a globe which is interactive and spins.

In this specific FE model the map is very similar to Bing maps.

Then see ChrisTP's comment. The rope I've thrown is too short to reach you at the bottom of the hole.

In addition I would stop focusing so much on what image we think our visual cortex would make in our brains. Our ability to perceive things with our eyes is VERY VERY limited and our visual cortex is easily fooled into creating images that do not match reality whatsoever.

That's pretty much all I got; my senses and my brain. And sure, our visual cortex is easily fooled into creating images that do not match reality whatsoever. Yet equally extremely adept at creating images that have pinpoint accuracy when it comes to reality. So don't throw your eyeballs out with the bathwater.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 27, 2019, 07:03:20 PM
Then see ChrisTP's comment. The rope I've thrown is too short to reach you at the bottom of the hole.

ok





No, one way to look at this is we have physical globes in classrooms that are not interactive and the image on those spheroids does not change. Can you have a physical flat map that is unchanging and accurate? If your answer is no (which it seemingly is) then obviously your flat map is not physically, accurately matching the real world.

Globes are interactive. I look at one and I see one side of the globe. Then I can interact with the globe to see the other side of it.

You can't have a physical globe that is unchanging and accurate. In the RE model a globe becomes accurate because you can interact with it.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 27, 2019, 11:43:34 PM
Then see ChrisTP's comment. The rope I've thrown is too short to reach you at the bottom of the hole.

ok

No, one way to look at this is we have physical globes in classrooms that are not interactive and the image on those spheroids does not change. Can you have a physical flat map that is unchanging and accurate? If your answer is no (which it seemingly is) then obviously your flat map is not physically, accurately matching the real world.

Globes are interactive. I look at one and I see one side of the globe. Then I can interact with the globe to see the other side of it.

You can't have a physical globe that is unchanging and accurate. In the RE model a globe becomes accurate because you can interact with it.

Sure, globes are 'interactive', but they are kind of cumbersome, hard to draw on when plotting a course and just don't have the portability that a 2D map has. That's why "projections" from a globe on to a 2D surface were created. Mercator came up with his method by lighting the inside of a globe and projecting the landmasses out onto a roll of paper.

(https://cdn.britannica.com/55/109155-050-2886F564.jpg)

The Bing map is a simply a Mercator projection from a globe, regardless of whether it's 'interactive' by zooming and such. It was still born of a globe, right or wrongly so assuming a globe, but decidedly not from a Flat Earth.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 28, 2019, 03:41:45 AM

Sure, globes are 'interactive', but they are kind of cumbersome, hard to draw on when plotting a course and just don't have the portability that a 2D map has. That's why "projections" from a globe on to a 2D surface were created. Mercator came up with his method by lighting the inside of a globe and projecting the landmasses out onto a roll of paper.

The Bing map is a simply a Mercator projection from a globe, regardless of whether it's 'interactive' by zooming and such. It was still born of a globe, right or wrongly so assuming a globe, but decidedly not from a Flat Earth.

I notice the static image globe projections do a HORRIBLE job of matching reality while the interactive Bing map model is much closer to reality.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 28, 2019, 06:06:00 AM

Sure, globes are 'interactive', but they are kind of cumbersome, hard to draw on when plotting a course and just don't have the portability that a 2D map has. That's why "projections" from a globe on to a 2D surface were created. Mercator came up with his method by lighting the inside of a globe and projecting the landmasses out onto a roll of paper.

The Bing map is a simply a Mercator projection from a globe, regardless of whether it's 'interactive' by zooming and such. It was still born of a globe, right or wrongly so assuming a globe, but decidedly not from a Flat Earth.

I notice the static image globe projections do a HORRIBLE job of matching reality while the interactive Bing map model is much closer to reality.

As has been explained before and shown in the Microsoft documentation, whether you're zoomed out or zoomed in on the Bing Map system, what you're seeing is still a Globe projection. It's all Mercator, all projection, all from and representing a globe earth in 2D. All using globe coordinates and distance measurements, all globe, all the time, whether you are interacting with it or just staring at it.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 28, 2019, 03:36:56 PM
As has been explained before and shown in the Microsoft documentation, whether you're zoomed out or zoomed in on the Bing Map system, what you're seeing is still a Globe projection. It's all Mercator, all projection, all from and representing a globe earth in 2D. All using globe coordinates and distance measurements, all globe, all the time, whether you are interacting with it or just staring at it.

What does this have to do with the fact that the only way that I have found to accurately depict the earth of any shape is through something that is interactive with an interactive scale.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 28, 2019, 03:45:21 PM

Sure, globes are 'interactive', but they are kind of cumbersome, hard to draw on when plotting a course and just don't have the portability that a 2D map has. That's why "projections" from a globe on to a 2D surface were created. Mercator came up with his method by lighting the inside of a globe and projecting the landmasses out onto a roll of paper.

The Bing map is a simply a Mercator projection from a globe, regardless of whether it's 'interactive' by zooming and such. It was still born of a globe, right or wrongly so assuming a globe, but decidedly not from a Flat Earth.

I notice the static image globe projections do a HORRIBLE job of matching reality while the interactive Bing map model is much closer to reality.
In what way? if you mean the Bing map is more accurate because you can zoom in then you have still 100% missed the point of my last post in here. If you can make a physical globe in a classroom that shows all of the earth without physically changing, then you should be able to make a physical flat map of the earth that shows all of the earth without physically changing. If you can do this while still visibly seeing that the flat map matches reality then you're golden! Bing map doesn't do this. Maps on a classroom wall also don't match reality without distortion. Even if there was some magic way that we pacman from one side of the earth to the other when we travel east or west, the Bing map is still distorted.

Forget digital maps for a second and just think about physical maps, be it flat earth or globe earth. You can start by assuming that countries borders on land are accurately positioned. Now here's where you have to use assumptions because I'm guessing you've not done these things but people traverse regularly across the Bering Strait, even by kayak, so you can assume russia and alaska are pretty darn close making the bing map physically impossible (without pacmanning). People also do other crazy adventures like sailing around Antarctica which makes a disk map basically impossible. These are things the average joe can do for themselves but I don't expect anyone to bother doing these things just to try proving distances under the assumption the world is flat... But feel free to try.

Other things that would need to match is the distance from east to west on Australia and the size of Greenland compared to Africa. On the Bing map, Greenland is too big and on the disk map Australia is too long. At least the people who think the disk map is the real map acknowledge that the current images are just globe projections, but then they still have that issue that people have circumnavigated Antarctica and distances match the globe. You'd think someone would have mentioned by now "Hey that took many times more days than it should have to get around Antarctica!" which already brings into question if any kind of disk map can work.

I'd probably start out by taking holiday time to find the distances across Greenland, across Australia, around the antarctic continent and then the distance between South America and Antarctica just to be sure I wasn't sailing around a random other island. It would be harder to get exact numbers by boat but you can still most certainly find out if it's a ring around the world or a much smaller chunk of land at the bottom of a globe. Are these big tasks? Yes. Are they impossible? No. Can any able bodied person do it? Yes. Will I do it? No, because I'm fairly confident the results will just match a globe and I don't want to waste my time. Any flat earth is free to try though literally no one is stopping them.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 28, 2019, 08:02:41 PM
As has been explained before and shown in the Microsoft documentation, whether you're zoomed out or zoomed in on the Bing Map system, what you're seeing is still a Globe projection. It's all Mercator, all projection, all from and representing a globe earth in 2D. All using globe coordinates and distance measurements, all globe, all the time, whether you are interacting with it or just staring at it.

What does this have to do with the fact that the only way that I have found to accurately depict the earth of any shape is through something that is interactive with an interactive scale.

Because the title of the thread is 'How to make a FE map, step one.' Right or wrongly, Bing maps is based on a globe, whether zoomed in or out. So it's not a valid "step one" in making an accurate FE map because it is representative of a Globe earth and that defeats the entire point of the thread.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 29, 2019, 04:25:37 AM
Because the title of the thread is 'How to make a FE map, step one.' Right or wrongly, Bing maps is based on a globe, whether zoomed in or out. So it's not a valid "step one" in making an accurate FE map because it is representative of a Globe earth and that defeats the entire point of the thread.

You didn't answer the question.


What does this have to do with the fact that the only way that I have found to accurately depict the earth of any shape is through something that is interactive with an interactive scale.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 29, 2019, 05:41:37 AM
Because the title of the thread is 'How to make a FE map, step one.' Right or wrongly, Bing maps is based on a globe, whether zoomed in or out. So it's not a valid "step one" in making an accurate FE map because it is representative of a Globe earth and that defeats the entire point of the thread.

You didn't answer the question.

What does this have to do with the fact that the only way that I have found to accurately depict the earth of any shape is through something that is interactive with an interactive scale.

It's not my question to answer. How would I know why you have found something to be of your liking?

Fact of the matter, a globe, whether a physical desktop model or a virtual one on your screen, whether you spin it, get closer to it or zoom in on it, it is a 3D representation of a spheroid earth. A Bing map, whether printed out onto a piece of paper or as shown on your screen, whether you drag it, get closer to it or zoom in on it, it is a 2D representation of a spheroid earth.

If you think step one in creating a map of The Flat Earth has something to do with a Bing map, great. Then it's not even step one, it's job done. You can say that you have found, finally, where everyone else has failed, an accurate map of The Flat Earth.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 29, 2019, 05:09:22 PM
Fact of the matter, a globe, whether a physical desktop model or a virtual one on your screen, whether you spin it, get closer to it or zoom in on it, it is a 3D representation of a spheroid earth. A Bing map, whether printed out onto a piece of paper or as shown on your screen, whether you drag it, get closer to it or zoom in on it, it is a 2D representation of a spheroid earth.

Good then we agree that, with advancements in technology, interactive maps are more accurate that static non interactive maps.  This means that an interactive map > non-interactive map.



If you think step one in creating a map of The Flat Earth has something to do with a Bing map, great. Then it's not even step one, it's job done. You can say that you have found, finally, where everyone else has failed, an accurate map of The Flat Earth.

No because Bing maps has a South pole and no real "center" of the disk. It was rejected by many people. The flat disk great ice wall model does not have a South pole. The model which is based off of Bing maps but not a globe projection
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 29, 2019, 08:50:33 PM
Fact of the matter, a globe, whether a physical desktop model or a virtual one on your screen, whether you spin it, get closer to it or zoom in on it, it is a 3D representation of a spheroid earth. A Bing map, whether printed out onto a piece of paper or as shown on your screen, whether you drag it, get closer to it or zoom in on it, it is a 2D representation of a spheroid earth.

Good then we agree that, with advancements in technology, interactive maps are more accurate that static non interactive maps.  This means that an interactive map > non-interactive map.

I mentioned nothing regarding interactivity leading to accuracy. You missed the point, again, entirely.

If you think step one in creating a map of The Flat Earth has something to do with a Bing map, great. Then it's not even step one, it's job done. You can say that you have found, finally, where everyone else has failed, an accurate map of The Flat Earth.

No because Bing maps has a South pole and no real "center" of the disk. It was rejected by many people. The flat disk great ice wall model does not have a South pole. The model which is based off of Bing maps but not a globe projection

The flat disk great ice wall model without a South pole is spherical earth projection.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 30, 2019, 04:45:50 PM
I mentioned nothing regarding interactivity leading to accuracy. You missed the point, again, entirely.

and I mentioned nothing about projections in mine. You missed the point, again, entirely.

The flat disk great ice wall model without a South pole is spherical earth projection.

Does that mean that it DOES NOT COUNT as a FE model?
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: stack on July 30, 2019, 05:17:41 PM
I mentioned nothing regarding interactivity leading to accuracy. You missed the point, again, entirely.

and I mentioned nothing about projections in mine. You missed the point, again, entirely.

Huh? I won't even venture a guess as to what you're going on about.

The flat disk great ice wall model without a South pole is spherical earth projection.

Does that mean that it DOES NOT COUNT as a FE model?

It depends. Whether you want to 'count' something is not for me to decide. But if someone wants to claim the AE North Pole center map showing Antarctica as an ice wall is an accurate working map of The Flat Earth, the irony is not lost that they are using a Globe projection to represent it.

If they want to use the AE North Pole center map showing Antarctica as an ice wall as a model, not an accurate map, of The Flat Earth, the irony is still not lost that they are using a Globe projection to represent it.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 30, 2019, 06:15:46 PM
It depends. Whether you want to 'count' something is not for me to decide.




I'm not asking myself the question. I'm asking you the question. I feel like you already know that. Since you like to argue semantics I'll humor you and add two words to the previous post to clear up your confusion. I'll ask basically the same question many different ways in the hopes that you might the wording of one of them worthy of an answer.


The flat disk great ice wall model without a South pole is spherical earth projection.

Does that mean that you believe it DOES NOT COUNT as a FE model because it is based on a spherical earth projection?

In case you don't like the wording of that question then please answer this question:

Does that mean that you think it DOES NOT COUNT as a FE model because it is based on a spherical earth projection?


In case you don't like the wording of that question then please answer this question:

Does that mean that you understand it DOES NOT COUNT as a FE model because it is based on a spherical earth projection?


In case you don't like the wording of that question then please answer this question:

Does that mean that you know it DOES NOT COUNT as a FE model because it is based on a spherical earth projection?


In case you don't like the wording of that question then please answer this question:

Are you saying it DOES NOT COUNT as a FE model because it is based on a spherical earth projection?

In case you don't like the wording of that question then please answer this question:

Are you under the impressions that it DOES NOT COUNT as a FE model because it is based on a spherical earth projection?

Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: ChrisTP on July 30, 2019, 08:49:36 PM
A projection of the globe map is not the same as a flat earth map. They cannot be the same. it is the flat earthers claim that the globe map isn't accurate. if you're saying it is accurate then great, you're saying it's a globe.

So no, for the last time a globe map does not count as a 'flat earth map'. It's frustrating then you aren't seeing this. If using the bing map is the first step you'll probably find that the earth conforms to a globe shape, it'd be the first and last step and it's just be confirming the earth is a globe.

So step one. Take measurements in real life. I've said it before that since there is no trust in modern technology (you have to assume technology is lying to us if you think the world is flat) then you'll have to use more oldschool cartography techniques. I don't pretend to know how to do the job of a cartographer, it's certainly something on my to-do list to find out about (for my own knowledge) and it's certainly something you'd have to study.

You could also test the globe maps accuracy by using manual measuring tools like a measuring wheel. I've mentioned before that you can use a bicycle for this. You can go on some nice long bike rides and measure the distance manually and if it doesn't match up with google maps (assuming you've calibrated accurately) then dayum, you are gunna have the discovery of a lifetime on your hands. my longest bike ride was roughly 892 miles and google maps matched up pretty perfectly with my bikes mileage but that was from top to bottom in the UK which I don't think it disputed by flat earthers. You're going to want to test places like Australia.
Title: Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
Post by: iamcpc on July 31, 2019, 04:25:29 PM
So no, for the last time a globe map does not count as a 'flat earth map'. It's frustrating then you aren't seeing this. If using the bing map is the first step you'll probably find that the earth conforms to a globe shape, it'd be the first and last step and it's just be confirming the earth is a globe.

I was not asking you because I already knew what your thoughts on the matter were. I was asking Stack but, to this point, he has REFUSED to answer.

So step one. Take measurements in real life. I've said it before that since there is no trust in modern technology (you have to assume technology is lying to us if you think the world is flat) then you'll have to use more oldschool cartography techniques. I don't pretend to know how to do the job of a cartographer, it's certainly something on my to-do list to find out about (for my own knowledge) and it's certainly something you'd have to study.

So then step one would be to develop some sort of cartography global scale measurement system that a significant portion of the FE community could agree on.

You could also test the globe maps accuracy by using manual measuring tools like a measuring wheel. I've mentioned before that you can use a bicycle for this. You can go on some nice long bike rides and measure the distance manually and if it doesn't match up with google maps (assuming you've calibrated accurately) then dayum, you are gunna have the discovery of a lifetime on your hands. my longest bike ride was roughly 892 miles and google maps matched up pretty perfectly with my bikes mileage but that was from top to bottom in the UK which I don't think it disputed by flat earthers. You're going to want to test places like Australia.

Problem with this is that, base on my belief, the Earth is at least 60% water and you can't use a measuring wheel on an ocean. Also it's impossible to form a concesus on if the bike measuring method is accurate or not.