[Yaakov ben Avraham]

No, but Atheism was essentially the State Faith of Communism, lets be blunt. I am a member of the Communist Party USA, so I don't object to Communism per se, and neither does the Party. But lets be honest. The first people to go to their deaths were monks, nuns, priests, and Lams, Christian and Buddhist.

[Rama Set]

In order:

1. Your immersion if your delusional belief in to your culture does not make it truer, only sadder.

Your statement is utterly illogical. The Jew's very continued existence against all odds is proof of that. And your claim that my culture is delusional is not backed up by any evidence. The fact is undeniable that a sizable number of persons SAW GOD at Mt. Sinai. You can do with that what you wish.

It is not a fact of any sort that a sizable number of people saw God. Between the self-referential nature of the bible, the penchant for the religious to interpret their texts in turn as literal or metaphorical, as they see fit and the complete lack of God's appearance to any other than the chosen people, it seems far more likely that God did not appear to the unwashed masses but rather the author of that particular portion of text was fulfiling a political agenda or some other corporeal need.

2. Your only source for a national revelation is self referential and totally unreliable as such.

I am again inclined to disagree. Since the history of my People is both oral and written, it is very likely to be as true as Troy.

You are not claiming the gods fought at Troy are you? Because that is what the mythological texts say. I treat the bible in the same light. Mythologized ancestry, nothing more.

Remember Heinrich Schliemann. You have a whole nation that saw the Deity. That is hard to gainsay.

Except that we don't have the testimony of a nation do we?  We have the words of the sole author of that section of the Torah. Quite easy to gainsay.

I don't think its self referential at all. In fact, we have learned from experience how to wrestle with God. We know our forefathers saw him in the deserts of Sinai, but we also know that in the Holocaust, he was silent. So, we have learned to struggle with him. But we have never denied what our forefathers have told us. An entire nation for 4500 years doesn't lie about things like that and get away with it.[/size]

Irrelevant.

3. People can make current remarks about how cultures treat Jews and so on, but no serious thinker would imply morality is tied to treatment of Jews as there are moral cultures that would not have had contact with Jews until the last century or two. It is only a sassy intellectual exercise no different in intellectual  substance than this very thread.

I am, of course, speaking of those cultures that have had frequent interaction with Jews. Actually there was a survey done of 190 countries, in which it was determined that 26% of adults worldwide harboured anti-Semitic feelings. The largest percentage was in the "Palestinian" Territories, where it was 93%. The lowest was in Laos, where it was at 0.02%. Any serious thinker would consider the morality of a culture that has harboured Jews in its territory for a long period of time to be partially determined by how it has treated said Jews.

I disagree and you have hardly made your case. Obviously the Palestinians would treat Jews badly, as anyone would treat their oppressive overlord. Your factoids don't happen to give any context either. I can determine exactly nothing about the subject from what you have told me.
 

4. Academics have shown by the always ethno-centric nature of religion and the spontaneous nature with which they can pop up (e.g. Cargo cults) that God is likely not to exist. As with all things in the scientific realm, there are no absolutes. We save those for you, the religious fanatic.

Since the fact that religion popping up has nothing whatsoever to do with whether God actually exists or not, the whole point is irrelevant. Some savage on Papua New Guinea after WWII building fake aeroplanes to entice "the gods" back is no commentary on whether a Supreme Being actually exists or not. Any "academic" who says it is probably received his credentials from a Cracker Jack box. As I said in an earlier post, the Atheist has no proof or even probable proof that God does not exist. At least the Theist has probable proof that he does.

I dare say the ease with which religions, professing privileged divine relations, pop up is a good indicator that religions hardly occur because of an actual divine relationship it rather because of a fact of human psychology and sociology.

Also, you can drop the notion that theists have "proof" based on arguments like Anselm's, et al.  These constitute nothing empirical, but rather a logical framework under which a God could occur. Nothing definitive, only something notional. There is no reason to suspect that metaphysical ideas must actually exist. 

5. Atheists and agnostics spend a lot of time rebutting religious folk because of the dangerous and heinous thoughts that the religious utter, like casting aspersions on the millions of lawful and good Muslims because of the actions of some thousands.

Of course, I'll keep in mind the dangerous thoughts of the atheists during the French Revolution, or the Russian, or the Chinese, or the Cambodian, or the Ethiopian, or... Lets see how many millions of people State sponsored Atheism has managed to kill. In Russia, some 40 million. In China, some 60 million. In Cambodia, 2 million. Shall I continue?

Please don't. This is like the religious version of Godwin's law. Nothing was done in the name of Atheism but rather under the guise of ideologies like communism, which you also espouse. Stop your emotional appeal.

6. 90% believe in some higher power ergo there must be God is utterly fallacious and goes by the name Argumentum ad Populem.

I am not using the argument in that sense. I am merely saying that it is not up to us to prove to you that God exists. It is up to you to prove otherwise.

I carry no burden of proof since my position is merely that your proof of God's existence is utterly unconvincing. All you have shown is an ancient text, written thousands of years ago by the power brokers of the time with no evidence of any supernatural occurrence since then that is anything more than anecdotal. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

7. Again, I must stress that although creation need not be willful the laws of physics do not create phenomena by accident. Please learn the difference.

We've been over this. Please demonstrate. If you are not able to, then be silent.

Demonstrate what exactly?  That the laws of physics on the macro scale are deterministic?  This is hardly controversial. Please demonstrate that a creator is responsible for the universe's existence.

8. There have been many good arguments against the impossibility of an uncaused cause. Look them up your ignorance combined with acrimony and self-righteousness is unbecoming.

Demonstrate or be silent. Plato, Aristotle, and MANY others would disagree, thank you.

Argument from authority. You suck. Watch this rebuttal to the Kalam Cosmologocal Argument that tackles the exact territory.

9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

In order:

1. Your immersion if your delusional belief in to your culture does not make it truer, only sadder.

Your statement is utterly illogical. The Jew's very continued existence against all odds is proof of that. And your claim that my culture is delusional is not backed up by any evidence. The fact is undeniable that a sizable number of persons SAW GOD at Mt. Sinai. You can do with that what you wish.

It is not a fact of any sort that a sizable number of people saw God. Between the self-referential nature of the bible, the penchant for the religious to interpret their texts in turn as literal or metaphorical, as they see fit and the complete lack of God's appearance to any other than the chosen people, it seems far more likely that God did not appear to the unwashed masses but rather the author of that particular portion of text was fulfiling a political agenda or some other corporeal need.

You can choose to reject the idea that an entire nation saw God. Your great great great great great grandchildren can also reject the idea that an entire nation fought the American Revolution.

2. Your only source for a national revelation is self referential and totally unreliable as such.

I am again inclined to disagree. Since the history of my People is both oral and written, it is very likely to be as true as Troy.

You are not claiming the gods fought at Troy are you? Because that is what the mythological texts say. I treat the bible in the same light. Mythologized ancestry, nothing more.

I'm not claiming anything about deities. But it wouldn't surprise me if angels weren't on hand that the Greeks thought were gods. And the fact that you are willing to disregard the evidence of 2 million persons (refer to my post above on that) makes you out to be acting the fool, nothing more.

Remember Heinrich Schliemann. You have a whole nation that saw the Deity. That is hard to gainsay.

Except that we don't have the testimony of a nation do we?  We have the words of the sole author of that section of the Torah. Quite easy to gainsay.

We have the words of Moses, and the testimony of every Jew who learned it at his father's knee for the 4500 years since it happened. Oral history has been proven right before. Again, I would direct you to Troy.

I don't think its self referential at all. In fact, we have learned from experience how to wrestle with God. We know our forefathers saw him in the deserts of Sinai, but we also know that in the Holocaust, he was silent. So, we have learned to struggle with him. But we have never denied what our forefathers have told us. An entire nation for 4500 years doesn't lie about things like that and get away with it.[/size]

Irrelevant.

3. People can make current remarks about how cultures treat Jews and so on, but no serious thinker would imply morality is tied to treatment of Jews as there are moral cultures that would not have had contact with Jews until the last century or two. It is only a sassy intellectual exercise no different in intellectual  substance than this very thread.

I am, of course, speaking of those cultures that have had frequent interaction with Jews. Actually there was a survey done of 190 countries, in which it was determined that 26% of adults worldwide harboured anti-Semitic feelings. The largest percentage was in the "Palestinian" Territories, where it was 93%. The lowest was in Laos, where it was at 0.02%. Any serious thinker would consider the morality of a culture that has harboured Jews in its territory for a long period of time to be partially determined by how it has treated said Jews.

I disagree and you have hardly made your case. Obviously the Palestinians would treat Jews badly, as anyone would treat their oppressive overlord. Your factoids don't happen to give any context either. I can determine exactly nothing about the subject from what you have told me.

Since the "Palestinians" are the ones who started the conflict, they are the ones who deserve the treatment, not us. Frankly, they deserve to be eliminated, through deportation. Trust me, Israel is by far a much kinder "overlord" than they deserve.
 

4. Academics have shown by the always ethno-centric nature of religion and the spontaneous nature with which they can pop up (e.g. Cargo cults) that God is likely not to exist. As with all things in the scientific realm, there are no absolutes. We save those for you, the religious fanatic.

Since the fact that religion popping up has nothing whatsoever to do with whether God actually exists or not, the whole point is irrelevant. Some savage on Papua New Guinea after WWII building fake aeroplanes to entice "the gods" back is no commentary on whether a Supreme Being actually exists or not. Any "academic" who says it is probably received his credentials from a Cracker Jack box. As I said in an earlier post, the Atheist has no proof or even probable proof that God does not exist. At least the Theist has probable proof that he does.

I dare say the ease with which religions, professing privileged divine relations, pop up is a good indicator that religions hardly occur because of an actual divine relationship it rather because of a fact of human psychology and sociology.

Also, you can drop the notion that theists have "proof" based on arguments like Anselm's, et al.  These constitute nothing empirical, but rather a logical framework under which a God could occur. Nothing definitive, only something notional. There is no reason to suspect that metaphysical ideas must actually exist. 

I'm only suggesting that we have more probable proof, not deductive proof. So your point is entirely irrelevant.

5. Atheists and agnostics spend a lot of time rebutting religious folk because of the dangerous and heinous thoughts that the religious utter, like casting aspersions on the millions of lawful and good Muslims because of the actions of some thousands.

Of course, I'll keep in mind the dangerous thoughts of the atheists during the French Revolution, or the Russian, or the Chinese, or the Cambodian, or the Ethiopian, or... Lets see how many millions of people State sponsored Atheism has managed to kill. In Russia, some 40 million. In China, some 60 million. In Cambodia, 2 million. Shall I continue?

Please don't. This is like the religious version of Godwin's law. Nothing was done in the name of Atheism but rather under the guise of ideologies like communism, which you also espouse. Stop your emotional appeal.

Hardly Godwin's. Simply an acknowledgement that all the governments that have been brutally atheist have been murderous thugs, and the first victims have always been the monks, priests, nuns, and Rabbis.

6. 90% believe in some higher power ergo there must be God is utterly fallacious and goes by the name Argumentum ad Populem.

I am not using the argument in that sense. I am merely saying that it is not up to us to prove to you that God exists. It is up to you to prove otherwise.

I carry no burden of proof since my position is merely that your proof of God's existence is utterly unconvincing. All you have shown is an ancient text, written thousands of years ago by the power brokers of the time with no evidence of any supernatural occurrence since then that is anything more than anecdotal. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

It is far more extraordinary to claim that the universe just exists randomly. So show me your evidence.

7. Again, I must stress that although creation need not be willful the laws of physics do not create phenomena by accident. Please learn the difference.

We've been over this. Please demonstrate. If you are not able to, then be silent.

Demonstrate what exactly?  That the laws of physics on the macro scale are deterministic?  This is hardly controversial. Please demonstrate that a creator is responsible for the universe's existence.

I have no need to demonstrate that a Creator is responsible. That's already been done by men smarter than me. Pick up a book or two. You have to prove to me that without a Creator, things can happen by accident, or even worse, by design (which is,without doubt, one of the dumbest things I have ever heard). A thing cannot occur on purpose without an inelligence behind it.

8. There have been many good arguments against the impossibility of an uncaused cause. Look them up your ignorance combined with acrimony and self-righteousness is unbecoming.

Demonstrate or be silent. Plato, Aristotle, and MANY others would disagree, thank you.

Argument from authority. You suck. Watch this rebuttal to the Kalam Cosmologocal Argument that tackles the exact territory.

Its not an Argument from Authority when the Authority is accurate.That's like saying it will rain because the weather man said so and being accused of arguing from authority.

9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.

[beardo]

Jesus, learn to quote properly already.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Jesus, learn to quote properly already.

I do quote properly. I just want it to clear who is me and who is he.

[Vindictus]

No, but Atheism was essentially the State Faith of Communism, lets be blunt. I am a member of the Communist Party USA, so I don't object to Communism per se, and neither does the Party. But lets be honest. The first people to go to their deaths were monks, nuns, priests, and Lams, Christian and Buddhist.

Communism is secular, just like the US.

9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.

Actually, Tolkien essentially said that Eru pushed Golum into Mt. Doom. He also brought Gandalf back, since the Valar don't have that power. I also disagree with the innocence of the Numenoreans. I think at that stage, their society at large despised Eru and those who dwelt in the undying lands. There were a few Numenoreans who fled East, and did not stay on Numenor nor participate in the fleet that sailed West. They were the ones who founded Gondor, and stayed faithful to the command of not stepping foot in Valinor.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I appear to have miswritten myself. "I am a member of the Communist Party USA, so I don't object to atheism as such in an individual as long as it's polite. But, lets be honest. The first people to go to their deaths in Communist states along the lines of the USSR were monks, nuns, priests, Rabbis, and Lamas, Christian and Buddhist." I believe that Communism at its best is not at all antagonistic to religion, or at least, doesn't have to be. But lets face it. Soviet style (and Chinese) style Communism were both State Atheist, as North Korean style  Communism is today. They are all three historically incredibly vicious toward anything that even hints of belief in God.

All three of the forms of Communism mentioned above are FAR more vicious toward believers than believers ever have been toward atheism or toward each other. Of course, every American, or at least most, stupidly makes the statement, "religion is the cause of all the wars." Not only is such a statement untrue, it is simply stupid in the extreme. In reality, most wars are a conflict of nationalism, or over natural resources.

Taking the Middle East for example, Jews and Muslims are not fighting each other for religious reasons. They are fighting each other because Arabs claim the land on which the Jews have a patrimony, and vice versa. Religion is used to justify said patrimony. It is a secondary reason, not a primary one. Even if both groups were the SAME religion, they would probably STILL not be fond of each other. The fact that ISIS makes people convert to Islam, and then kills them anyway, is an example of this.

And the Middle East is one part of the world where it can safely be said that religion DOES actually play a pretty large role in things. Outside of there, it plays almost NO role in shaping conflicts. Even in the Indo-Pak situation, it is mostly natural resources they are fighting over at this point, although religion is used as an excuse.

Religion has been used A LOT as an excuse, but that is exactly what it is. There is ALWAYS something else that impels the conflicts. Religion is NEVER the reason, although it may be the STATED reason.

[Rama Set]

Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the Anerican Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

3. I am not referring to whether or not the Oalestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

5.Correlation does not equal causation.

6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the American Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

The only reason it is thought of as less accurate is because it happened a LONG time ago, vs 238 years ago. Give it a few thousand years, and see how mythologised the American Revolution becomes. Hell, just watch Mel Gibson's "The Patriot", and see how mythologised it already is. For more on the Exodus from Egypt, read the Pocket Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 2nd Printing, copyright 1950, pp. 106-127. Although Christian, and with considerable faults, it is still a pretty good reference. The book is still in print, but the current 25th Edition, though it does have its strengths, is generally not as good.However, for your reference, Halley's Bible Handbook, with the New International Version, copyright 2000, 2007 by Halley's Bible Handbook, Inc. It is done through Zondervan. I have it on my Nook, so no pagination, but the Chapter is "The Exodus from Egypt: Exodus-Deuteronomy".

2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

And you are forgetting the non-canonical sources such as the Book of Jubilees, and other sources.

3. I am not referring to whether or not the Palestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

Understood.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

No response necessary.

5.Correlation does not equal causation.

Except insofar as that was the stated aim of the governments in question.

6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

Summarise, please.l

7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

The universe doesn't exist?

8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.

I don't have 2 hours to listen to an argument. Summarise, please.

[Lord Dave]

Yaakov: You liar.  You big, fat, ugly, liar. I can't believe you can come in here and spout such horrible lies as fact.

You claim it's fact that Jews saw God at Mt. Sinai yet your own book says this is a lie. 

The Jews saw only smoke, not God.  They HEARD a voice, but saw nothing. 

For those interested let me paint you a picture:

Moses hears God tell him to go up a mountain.  He "talks" to God who tells him to tell everyone to listen to him because he did all the stuff for them.  So Moses comes back and tells his people who then agree.  So Moses has to go BACK up the mountain to tell God what they said.  At which point God tells them to get nice and clean and holy in 2 days and on the third, he'll talk to them.  Oh and that if anyone climbs the mountain or even touches it, they'll die. 

So on the third day, the mountain is covered in smoke with a big fire at the top (fire causes smoke FYI) and a loud voice proclaims the commandments. So Moses goes BACK up the mountain after this and spends 40 days and 40 nights to "receive" the stone tablets, the written Torah AND the Oral Torah.  So one guy was on a mountain, alone, and after 40 days, he returns with two written works and one oral one.  Why would it take God 40 days to give him this stuff?  It would take 10 seconds, max.  It's FAR more likely that it was Moses who did it.  Especially since he came back, broke the stone tablets, and had to go back for 40 days and nights to get new ones.

If this were any other religion, you'd call Moses a con man.  But because you were brainwashed into believing this, you can't accept any evidence contrary.

Moses was the original Wizard of Oz.  So put on your big boy pants and accept the truth.  Stop being a child who accepts dragons because your friends say someone saw one.

[Rama Set]

Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the American Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

The only reason it is thought of as less accurate is because it happened a LONG time ago, vs 238 years ago. Give it a few thousand years, and see how mythologised the American Revolution becomes. Hell, just watch Mel Gibson's "The Patriot", and see how mythologised it already is. For more on the Exodus from Egypt, read the Pocket Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 2nd Printing, copyright 1950, pp. 106-127. Although Christian, and with considerable faults, it is still a pretty good reference. The book is still in print, but the current 25th Edition, though it does have its strengths, is generally not as good.However, for your reference, Halley's Bible Handbook, with the New International Version, copyright 2000, 2007 by Halley's Bible Handbook, Inc. It is done through Zondervan. I have it on my Nook, so no pagination, but the Chapter is "The Exodus from Egypt: Exodus-Deuteronomy".

So as we get further from the event it becomes more mythologized. This does not help your argument really.

2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

And you are forgetting the non-canonical sources such as the Book of Jubilees, and other sources.

How many sources refer to the revelation?

3. I am not referring to whether or not the Palestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

Understood.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

No response necessary.

So you concede and we need not take metaphysical arguments as evidence. Glad we agree.

5.Correlation does not equal causation.

Except insofar as that was the stated aim of the governments in question.

Citation required.

6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

Summarise, please.l

That it is plausible that the universe can arise from the quantum fluctuations of empty space.

7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

The universe doesn't exist?

Oops!  Not sure what I meant by the first part however I have pointed out that laws of physics are deterministic and as such are non-random.

8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.

I don't have 2 hours to listen to an argument. Summarise, please.

That not everything that begins to exist must have a cause. We are not capable of making this statement with any sort of certainty.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Yaakov: You liar.  You big, fat, ugly, liar. I can't believe you can come in here and spout such horrible lies as fact.

You claim it's fact that Jews saw God at Mt. Sinai yet your own book says this is a lie. 

The Jews saw only smoke, not God.  They HEARD a voice, but saw nothing. 

For those interested let me paint you a picture:

Moses hears God tell him to go up a mountain.  He "talks" to God who tells him to tell everyone to listen to him because he did all the stuff for them.  So Moses comes back and tells his people who then agree.  So Moses has to go BACK up the mountain to tell God what they said.  At which point God tells them to get nice and clean and holy in 2 days and on the third, he'll talk to them.  Oh and that if anyone climbs the mountain or even touches it, they'll die. 

So on the third day, the mountain is covered in smoke with a big fire at the top (fire causes smoke FYI) and a loud voice proclaims the commandments. So Moses goes BACK up the mountain after this and spends 40 days and 40 nights to "receive" the stone tablets, the written Torah AND the Oral Torah.  So one guy was on a mountain, alone, and after 40 days, he returns with two written works and one oral one.  Why would it take God 40 days to give him this stuff?  It would take 10 seconds, max.  It's FAR more likely that it was Moses who did it.  Especially since he came back, broke the stone tablets, and had to go back for 40 days and nights to get new ones.

It would take 40 days at least to write the Written Torah by hand. The Oral Torah would take at LEAST that long to memorise. Then he would have to do it again!

If this were any other religion, you'd call Moses a con man.  But because you were brainwashed into believing this, you can't accept any evidence contrary.

Moses was the original Wizard of Oz.  So put on your big boy pants and accept the truth.  Stop being a child who accepts dragons because your friends say someone saw one.

I would say it's time for you to put on your big-boy pants and admit that 2 million people at one time don't lie and get away with it. Grow up.

"Chapter 19
19:1 In the third month after the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

19:2 And when they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mount.

19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying: 'Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

19:5 Now therefore, if ye will hearken unto My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine;

19:6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord commanded him.

19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

19:10 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments,

19:11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Notice: He will come down in the sight of all the people. All 2 million of them.

19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying: Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it; whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death;

19:13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.'

19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their garments.

19:15 And he said unto the people: 'Be ready against the third day; come not near a woman.' 16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

Notice: Thunder and lightning and a thick cloud on the mount. This implies nowhere else.

19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

19:18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Notice: the Lord descended in fire on the mountain. What do you want him to do, show up as Derek Jeter?

19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice.

Moses speaks, and then God blantantly speaks. Damn!

19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

19:21 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish.

19:22 And let the priests also, that come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.'

19:23 And Moses said unto the Lord: 'The people cannot come up to mount Sinai; for thou didst charge us, saying: Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.'

19:24 And the Lord said unto him: 'Go, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the Lord, lest He break forth upon them.'

19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and told them.

Chapter 20
20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

20:2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

20:5 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

20:6 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;

20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the Lord thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

20:11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

20:13 Thou shalt not murder.

20:13 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

20:13 Thou shalt not steal.

20:13 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

20:14 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. 15 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.

20:16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'

20:17 And Moses said unto the people: 'Fear not; for God is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.'

20:18 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

One assumes that there was no thick darkness elsewhere.

19 And the Lord said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

20:20 Ye shall not make with Me--gods of silver, or gods of gold, ye shall not make unto you.

20:21 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.

20:22 And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast profaned it.

20:23 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto Mine altar, that thy nakedness be not uncovered thereon."

Source: Tanach, Jewish Publication Society. http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/exodus-jps.html

I am astounded at your line of argumentation being so poor. I thought I was actually going to be challenged seriously. Wow. That was seriously weak, friend. When I can give you a kicking that badly in 10 minutes, I am disappointed, really. Better luck next time. If at first you don't succeed...

Of course, you will say that this proves nothing. But, you, like so many, fail to keep the rest of the Torah in context, namely, remembering the people the Lord has stricken down in His wrath. The Wizard of Oz didn't do that, and neither did Moses.  God did that. Try again...

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the American Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

The only reason it is thought of as less accurate is because it happened a LONG time ago, vs 238 years ago. Give it a few thousand years, and see how mythologised the American Revolution becomes. Hell, just watch Mel Gibson's "The Patriot", and see how mythologised it already is. For more on the Exodus from Egypt, read the Pocket Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 2nd Printing, copyright 1950, pp. 106-127. Although Christian, and with considerable faults, it is still a pretty good reference. The book is still in print, but the current 25th Edition, though it does have its strengths, is generally not as good.However, for your reference, Halley's Bible Handbook, with the New International Version, copyright 2000, 2007 by Halley's Bible Handbook, Inc. It is done through Zondervan. I have it on my Nook, so no pagination, but the Chapter is "The Exodus from Egypt: Exodus-Deuteronomy".

So as we get further from the event it becomes more mythologized. This does not help your argument really.

It helps insofar as it recognises that mythologising occurs with anything. The Exodus is as believable as the American Revolution will one day be.

2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

And you are forgetting the non-canonical sources such as the Book of Jubilees, and other sources.

How many sources refer to the revelation?

I would have to check. I know the Book of Jubilees does. I know there are others. As far as numbers, I am not certain.

3. I am not referring to whether or not the Palestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

Understood.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

No response necessary.

So you concede and we need not take metaphysical arguments as evidence. Glad we agree.

I do not concede. I simply consider that you do not have an argument worth a response.

5.Correlation does not equal causation.

Except insofar as that was the stated aim of the governments in question.

Citation required.

The Dalai Lama. Chairman Mao repeatedly told him that religion was poison. The Cultural Revolution in which all religion was intended to be wiped out across the country. In Albania, which was officially declared an Atheist country in 1967, wherein EVERY single house of worship was closed, and where owning a Bible or Qur'an was punishable by death or long prison sentences. It was the only country in the world that actually went so far as to declare itself officially Atheist, and actually outlawed religion outright, although ALL Soviet, Chinese, and Korean style Communist countries severely curtailed the rights of believers. In the USSR, it was illegal to teach one's faith to anyone under the age of 18, even one's own children.

6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

Summarise, please.l

That it is plausible that the universe can arise from the quantum fluctuations of empty space.

It might arise, but what kind of order would it have? Sounds like it would be pretty random to me.

7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

The universe doesn't exist?

Oops!  Not sure what I meant by the first part however I have pointed out that laws of physics are deterministic and as such are non-random.

Citation needed please.

8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.

I don't have 2 hours to listen to an argument. Summarise, please.

That not everything that begins to exist must have a cause. We are not capable of making this statement with any sort of certainty.

Forgive me, but saying that something exists without cause is utterly illogical in the extreme. That is absurd. I'll just leave that one there.

[Ghost of V]

This is starting to look like a sandokhan thread.

[beardo]

God spoke in old english? interesting

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Ha. Very funny. That would be the 1917 JPS Translation, rather than the 1985 Translation, updated 1999. I pulled it off the Internet, as the Source indicates.

[Rama Set]

So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument may sound absurd on its face. Maybe you should take the time to listen to what the expert has to say instead of making an argument from personal credulity.

(Sorry for the lack of quotes, on my phone and don't have time to parse it all.)

[Lord Dave]

Yaakov: You liar.  You big, fat, ugly, liar. I can't believe you can come in here and spout such horrible lies as fact.

You claim it's fact that Jews saw God at Mt. Sinai yet your own book says this is a lie. 

The Jews saw only smoke, not God.  They HEARD a voice, but saw nothing. 

For those interested let me paint you a picture:

Moses hears God tell him to go up a mountain.  He "talks" to God who tells him to tell everyone to listen to him because he did all the stuff for them.  So Moses comes back and tells his people who then agree.  So Moses has to go BACK up the mountain to tell God what they said.  At which point God tells them to get nice and clean and holy in 2 days and on the third, he'll talk to them.  Oh and that if anyone climbs the mountain or even touches it, they'll die. 

So on the third day, the mountain is covered in smoke with a big fire at the top (fire causes smoke FYI) and a loud voice proclaims the commandments. So Moses goes BACK up the mountain after this and spends 40 days and 40 nights to "receive" the stone tablets, the written Torah AND the Oral Torah.  So one guy was on a mountain, alone, and after 40 days, he returns with two written works and one oral one.  Why would it take God 40 days to give him this stuff?  It would take 10 seconds, max.  It's FAR more likely that it was Moses who did it.  Especially since he came back, broke the stone tablets, and had to go back for 40 days and nights to get new ones.

It would take 40 days at least to write the Written Torah by hand. The Oral Torah would take at LEAST that long to memorise. Then he would have to do it again!

If this were any other religion, you'd call Moses a con man.  But because you were brainwashed into believing this, you can't accept any evidence contrary.

Moses was the original Wizard of Oz.  So put on your big boy pants and accept the truth.  Stop being a child who accepts dragons because your friends say someone saw one.

I would say it's time for you to put on your big-boy pants and admit that 2 million people at one time don't lie and get away with it. Grow up.

"Chapter 19
19:1 In the third month after the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

19:2 And when they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mount.

19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying: 'Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

19:5 Now therefore, if ye will hearken unto My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine;

19:6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord commanded him.

19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

19:10 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments,

19:11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Notice: He will come down in the sight of all the people. All 2 million of them.

19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying: Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it; whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death;

19:13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.'

19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their garments.

19:15 And he said unto the people: 'Be ready against the third day; come not near a woman.' 16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

Notice: Thunder and lightning and a thick cloud on the mount. This implies nowhere else.

19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

19:18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Notice: the Lord descended in fire on the mountain. What do you want him to do, show up as Derek Jeter?

19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice.

Moses speaks, and then God blantantly speaks. Damn!

19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

19:21 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish.

19:22 And let the priests also, that come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.'

19:23 And Moses said unto the Lord: 'The people cannot come up to mount Sinai; for thou didst charge us, saying: Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.'

19:24 And the Lord said unto him: 'Go, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the Lord, lest He break forth upon them.'

19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and told them.

Chapter 20
20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

20:2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

20:5 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

20:6 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;

20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the Lord thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

20:11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

20:13 Thou shalt not murder.

20:13 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

20:13 Thou shalt not steal.

20:13 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

20:14 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. 15 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.

20:16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'

20:17 And Moses said unto the people: 'Fear not; for God is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.'

20:18 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

One assumes that there was no thick darkness elsewhere.

19 And the Lord said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

20:20 Ye shall not make with Me--gods of silver, or gods of gold, ye shall not make unto you.

20:21 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.

20:22 And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast profaned it.

20:23 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto Mine altar, that thy nakedness be not uncovered thereon."

Source: Tanach, Jewish Publication Society. http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/exodus-jps.html

I am astounded at your line of argumentation being so poor. I thought I was actually going to be challenged seriously. Wow. That was seriously weak, friend. When I can give you a kicking that badly in 10 minutes, I am disappointed, really. Better luck next time. If at first you don't succeed...

Of course, you will say that this proves nothing. But, you, like so many, fail to keep the rest of the Torah in context, namely, remembering the people the Lord has stricken down in His wrath. The Wizard of Oz didn't do that, and neither did Moses.  God did that. Try again...

So God is nothing but smoke and loud noise now?
Sorry but I could fake all that with nothing more than time and an assistant.  Using no technology either.

And having to take 40 days to "get" a scroll and two stone tablets seems like a long time for god doesn't it?  He, who can poof such things into your hands in a moment required 40 days and 40 nights and to be alone with one man to do it.  This is what a conman would do.

You also made the assumption that darkness was no where else.  Why would God want darkness instead of light I wonder?

Also, 19:21 clearly states that anyone who looks at The Lord will perish.  So how can you see God and live?  You cant.  So again, no one saw God, they saw smoke, fire (which creates smoke), thunder and lightning.  In fact, one may even think that if Moses knew a storm was coming he timed it perfectly.  And one trumpet and an assistant with a bullhorn would be the Voice of God.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

No, you missed my point. The American Revolution was not supernatural, nor will it be classed as such. My point is that people will have the same questions as to whether or not it even occurred.

Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

Ah, ok. Whatever that means.

By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

I'm stating facts. One does not need citations when one is stating facts that any person can look up in any decent encyclopedia. Go have look at Wikipedia.

In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

So, you are basing this off one article. IMPRESSIVE! (NOT!) There are so many theories about the universe and how it got to be here that you could power the city of San Diego with them for about 10 years if you kept one person reciting them all, and hooked his mouth up to a generator. I think you are doing rather poorly so far trying to prove your point.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument may sound absurd on its face. Maybe you should take the time to listen to what the expert has to say instead of making an argument from personal credulity.

(Sorry for the lack of quotes, on my phone and don't have time to parse it all.)

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

"Chapter 19
19:1 In the third month after the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

19:2 And when they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mount.

19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying: 'Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

19:5 Now therefore, if ye will hearken unto My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine;

19:6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord commanded him.

19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

19:10 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments,

19:11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Notice: He will come down in the sight of all the people. All 2 million of them.

19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying: Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it; whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death;

19:13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.'

19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their garments.

19:15 And he said unto the people: 'Be ready against the third day; come not near a woman.' 16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

Notice: Thunder and lightning and a thick cloud on the mount. This implies nowhere else.

19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

19:18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Notice: the Lord descended in fire on the mountain. What do you want him to do, show up as Derek Jeter?

19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice.

Moses speaks, and then God blantantly speaks. Damn!

19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

19:21 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish.

19:22 And let the priests also, that come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.'

19:23 And Moses said unto the Lord: 'The people cannot come up to mount Sinai; for thou didst charge us, saying: Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.'

19:24 And the Lord said unto him: 'Go, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the Lord, lest He break forth upon them.'

19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and told them.

Chapter 20
20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

20:2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

20:5 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

20:6 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;

20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the Lord thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

20:11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

20:13 Thou shalt not murder.

20:13 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

20:13 Thou shalt not steal.

20:13 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

20:14 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. 15 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.

20:16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'

20:17 And Moses said unto the people: 'Fear not; for God is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.'

20:18 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

One assumes that there was no thick darkness elsewhere.

19 And the Lord said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

20:20 Ye shall not make with Me--gods of silver, or gods of gold, ye shall not make unto you.

20:21 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.

20:22 And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast profaned it.

20:23 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto Mine altar, that thy nakedness be not uncovered thereon."

Source: Tanach, Jewish Publication Society. http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/exodus-jps.html

I am astounded at your line of argumentation being so poor. I thought I was actually going to be challenged seriously. Wow. That was seriously weak, friend. When I can give you a kicking that badly in 10 minutes, I am disappointed, really. Better luck next time. If at first you don't succeed...

Of course, you will say that this proves nothing. But, you, like so many, fail to keep the rest of the Torah in context, namely, remembering the people the Lord has stricken down in His wrath. The Wizard of Oz didn't do that, and neither did Moses.  God did that. Try again...

So God is nothing but smoke and loud noise now?
Sorry but I could fake all that with nothing more than time and an assistant.  Using no technology either.

It would be rather difficult with the Bronze Age technology (or rather, the lack thereof) to fake thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount. One can imagine that it was not a small amount. In fact, Torah states that the smoke ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Moses would have had a hard time pulling that off 4500 years ago.

And having to take 40 days to "get" a scroll and two stone tablets seems like a long time for god doesn't it?  He, who can poof such things into your hands in a moment required 40 days and 40 nights and to be alone with one man to do it.  This is what a conman would do.

Since Moses had to write it out longhand, it would take about 40 days. Memorising the entire Oral Torah would take at LEAST that long!

You also made the assumption that darkness was no where else.  Why would God want darkness instead of light I wonder?

Why wouldn't he? How is that in the slightest a relevant question?

Also, 19:21 clearly states that anyone who looks at The Lord will perish.  So how can you see God and live?  You cant.  So again, no one saw God, they saw smoke, fire (which creates smoke), thunder and lightning.  In fact, one may even think that if Moses knew a storm was coming he timed it perfectly.  And one trumpet and an assistant with a bullhorn would be the Voice of God.

Trumpets didn't exist. Shofarim did. I hear them blast every year in the Synagogue. It would be hard to fool anyone with one of those. They are not loud enough.  Bullhorns also did not exist.

You continue to do a PISS POOR job of defending your argument. Keep trying, friend...


PLEASE NOTE: Words like "horn" or "trumpet" are usually how the word in Hebrew, "shofar", ends up being translated. A shofar is the horn of a ram that is made into a trumpet that is used today for religious purposes, and at one time was used also for military purposes. However, calling it a trumpet is a bit misleading, as it doesn't have the volume of a trumpet, and couldn't be used in fakery for 2 million persons.