[Yonah ben Amittai]

This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person

They aren't advocating mass genocide, just forced relocation and encampment.  You know, like the Indians.

Forced relocation, yes, in a sense. But done humanely, as has had to be done before. The Germans of the Sudentenland after 1945, Some of the Muslims of India, and nearly all of the Hindus of Pakistan after 1947, being a few that ring bells right off hand. 750,000 Jews that lived in Arab countries all being deported to Israel in 1948 being some more. The difference is the Jews weren't kindly relocated, but forced out with nothing but what they could carry.

[markjo]

Commenting on a remark that utterly ridiculous would just make me equally ridiculous. Welcome to anti-Semitism at its best, is all I can say.

Or, it could mean that you have finally given in to the ridiculousness of this place.

[Lord Dave]

This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person

They aren't advocating mass genocide, just forced relocation and encampment.  You know, like the Indians.

Forced relocation, yes, in a sense. But done humanely, as has had to be done before. The Germans of the Sudentenland after 1945, Some of the Muslims of India, and nearly all of the Hindus of Pakistan after 1947, being a few that ring bells right off hand. 750,000 Jews that lived in Arab countries all being deported to Israel in 1948 being some more. The difference is the Jews weren't kindly relocated, but forced out with nothing but what they could carry.

I'm not sure any forced relocation is humane.  I mean, what if every jew was forced to move to Israel with 6 months pay?  (what level exactly?)  I mean, we'd be ripping families apart if they're mixed religion.  We'd be destroying lives.  I've moved against my will before.  I did not enjoy the experience.  I can't imagine anyone enjoying it.

[beardo]

But Dave! Don't you know that Muslims are insignificant sub-human garbage? Why would it matter if their lives would be destroyed if it meant that the glorious chosen people were to regain their holy promised land?!

[Rushy]

There's no difference between killing a city of humans and killing the ants in an ant mound, which people do every day.

And don't start with the "ants are a lower lifeform, they're barely sentient" nonsense.

Ants are territorial and hostile. They bring it upon themselves.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

I'm not expecting anyone to enjoy it. Nor do I consider Muslims as necessarily sub-human, although I don't want to be anywhere near them. I do consider them to be dangerous, since the Quran, which I have read three times, but I suspect you have not read at all, tells them they must convert me, force me to pay the Jizyah tax, or kill me. In Israel, there ARE no mixed religious marriages, or at least VERY few, since they are not permitted. Each religious faith is responsible for its own marriages. In Judaism, this means that Orthodox Judaism has responsibility for ALL Jewish marriages, and other life cycle events, that occur in Israel. If I want to live in Israel, and I get married in a Reform synagogue in that country, said marriage is NOT recognised by the state. If I leave the country and get married in the closest Reform Synagogue (which is in Cyprus) or in any other country, and then return to Israel, the State WILL recognise the marriage.

As far as Muslim marriages, and Christian marriages, and Druze marriages, each community is responsible for its own marriages. Muslims only allow men to marry non-Muslim girls, women are not allowed to marry outside the faith. Druze cannot marry out, and Christians tend to vary. But since no, or at least very few, Jewish girls would ever marry a non-Jewish male just because of social pressure, and few Muslim men would marry a Jewish girl, and so-on and so-forth, all these rules create an interlocking set of social rules and religious regulations that very few people of ANY religion are inclined to break, even the non-religious Jews, who actually make up a sizable portion of the population. There IS NO SECULAR MARRIAGE IN ISRAEL.

[Ghost of V]

There's no difference between killing a city of humans and killing the ants in an ant mound, which people do every day.

And don't start with the "ants are a lower lifeform, they're barely sentient" nonsense.

Ants are territorial and hostile. They bring it upon themselves.

So are Muslims. And heathens.

[Vindictus]

Vindictus, you have, as usual, failed to see the point. I have at no time advocated genocide. Again, Israel has never engaged in the practice. Given that the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by 4 times in 47 years, lets face it, they're doing a piss-poor job of it if that is what they are attempting to do. If Israel truly wanted to eliminate every "Palestinian", it could be accomplished within a week. Intensive carpet bombing or fire bombing would do the job quite nicely.  I realise you regularly fail to see my point. I've gotten used to that, so don't expect me to be overly surprised.

I'm not talking about the Palestinians, I don't even need to go there. You've repeatedly advocated the genocide of muslims around the world.

[garygreen]

the Quran, which I have read three times, but I suspect you have not read at all, tells them they must convert me, force me to pay the Jizyah tax, or kill me.

Have you ever actually been to an Arab nation and engaged its inhabitants in any civil discourse?  You're aware that not a single Arab state applies a Jizya tax, yes?

You're conflating both the official political rhetoric of nations like Iran, and the totally Medieval philosophy of ISIS, with the thoughts, feelings, and opinions, of the 'typical' Arab citizen.  It's completely bogus.  Arab citizens are as peaceful as any other.  They overwhelmingly have zero interest in converting anyone or killing anyone for any reason.

I've never read the Quran.  I dunno what it says; but, you've mentioned previously that there are writings/laws/whatever in the Torah to which modern Judaism no longer adheres.  Is it so difficult for you to believe that maybe some of the more Medieval aspects of the Quran are also no longer applicable or practiced in modern Islam? 

You clearly don't think it's fair for someone to label you as a barbarian because the Torah commands you to stone to death adulterers, homosexuals, and disobedient children.  Obviously.  Your faith doesn't practice those commandments anymore except in small pockets of extremists (which you actually defend, oddly enough).  The exact same thing is true for Islam.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

I have not advocated the genocide of Muslims around the world. I have advocated their complete subjugation. Nor do I apologise for that. They would do nothing less to us. As they say, "First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people." Of course, you have probably never heard the phrase, but every Jew has. And any Christian who has lived long enough in the Middle East has heard it.

But, like most Americans, you have an idealised view of Muslims. You have obviously not read the Qur'an. That's a shame, because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Anyone who tries to talk about Islam without having read their chief text should probably shut their yap. In fact, unless one can cite Hadith with some sufficiency, I suggest not opening one's yap at all. Of course, in your case, you would probably be hard-pressed to even know what Hadith are. Never mind asking, I'll tell you.

Hadith are the collected sayings of the "Prophet" Mohammed, which were collected by four schools of thought in Islam. The one I know best happens to be Sahi al Bukhari. There are three others in the Sunni (which basically means "Orthodox") sect of Islam, and five more in the Shia sect of Islam. Shia does not mean "heretic", but they are considered to be such by the larger Sunni population, because they engage in practices that are considered to be out of line with standard Islam, such as saint worship, and other such practices.

I could go on at length, but I think I've said enough. Since this is a Jewish thread, I would prefer not to pollute it with the practices of a religion that borders on the pagan, if it doesn't actually become such in its Shia variety. Anyway, there you are. Again, Vindictus, your failure to see the point does not shock me in the least.

Gary, in fact, there are countries in the Arab world that are even LESS tolerant than the Qur'an. At least the Qur'an tolerates Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians. Try being any one of those things in Saudi Arabia. Try being anything other than a Muslim if you are a citizen of that country. The punishment for such is death. And they don't screw around. They carry it out.

And tell the average "Palestinian" how much interest he has in seeing himself live in peaceful co-existence with Jews. They have made it painfully clear, to the tune of 93% of them, that they want to see us "pushed into the sea". They continue to teach their children that "Palestine" is the only country there. The maps that are in their textbooks do not show Israel at all. And those same books describe Jews as apes and pigs, and some of them include Holocaust denial as part of the lesson plans.

Gary, I strongly advise you NOT to yap at me about how the Arab in the street feels about the Jew. I already know the answer to that. The only reason The average Arab nation doesn't require the Jizyah tax is because there ARE no Jews or Christians there to pay it! Egypt has some Christians, where martyrdom occurs regularly. Morocco is a major exception, and treats its Jews well. Iran routinely persecutes its religious minorities. Those are the only three nations in the Middle East at this point that have to worry about minorities. Originally, you were right. The Jizyah was not required, but in Iraq under Saddam, minorities always had to duck. If they did, they were usually left alone. Now, their situation is dire.

Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Morocco, Syria, and that's about it for Middle Eastern nations. The rest of them are about 99% Muslim or greater. And except for Morocco, it sucks to be you if you live in any of them. So, just because you don't have to pay the Jizyah tax (yet), doesn't mean you are free from abuse. Lebanon is the only country that is truly multi-confessional, and its a mess.

And note that except for Iran and Morocco, NO single Middle Eastern country permits Jews to reside there or even enter the territory at all. Saudi Arabia will not even permit me to lay over in the Riyadh Airport on my way to South Africa or any place else. Most other Arab nations behave accordingly. In theory, Egypt will, but there are only about 500 Jews living there. There are no other Arab countries that have Jews in them, to my knowledge. So tell me about how Jews are treated by Arabs. And in Iran, Jews have to duck constantly.

And yes, I have spoken personally to Muslims and even studied in a Mosque for two years. Didn't tell them I was a Jew, but that's beside the point.

[Rushy]

It boils down to two cultures that think they're superior to each other and as a result attempt to extinguish the opposing "inferior" culture. Since Israel already has nukes, I say ship a few to Hamas and see what happens. The nukes will stabilize the region, either by nuclear deterrent, or by removing the entire populace via a fireball.

[Ghost of V]

We (Murica) can't just start handing out nukes. That could back fire catastrophically. I say we cut out the middleman and nuke them first.

[xasop]

Yaakov/Yonah, we don't ban people the moment they break rules. We ban people who have been issued (and who have ignored) warnings on the matter. Banning is not a tool of punishment, it is a tool of correction, and should be used as a last resort. That's also why we didn't ban your alt straight away, but we will do so if you continue to break the same rule.

That's the last I'll say of this here, because it's off-topic. If you honestly feel that moderators have acted unfairly, please create a thread in Suggestions & Concerns, which is the appropriate forum for that. Preferably include links to the posts that you find incriminating, as supporting evidence, so that we can try to make an impartial assessment of the situation. Moderators are people too; they make mistakes, and they don't automatically understand everyone's point of view. S&C is the appropriate place to identify and deal with such issues.

[Vindictus]

I have not advocated the genocide of Muslims around the world. I have advocated their complete subjugation. Nor do I apologise for that.

Oh come on. You've repeatedly said that you want to kill all muslims to prevent them from killing you.

[Lord Dave]

According to wiktravel.org:

Islam is the state religion of Saudi Arabia. Although no law specifically requires Saudi citizens or passport holders to be Muslim, public observance and proselytism of religions other than Islam are forbidden.

wikitravel.org/en/Saudi_Arabia

You are allowed to be in Saudi Arabia so long as you don't practice jeudaism.  Which shouldn't be hard for someone who spent two years as a Muslim.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

LORD DAVE, you have made my point for me. Thank you. VINDICTUS, ah, whatever.

PARSIFAL, you know, I'm not contesting the fact that I was banned. To be honest, I deserved it, at least the first time. I just believe that several other people deserved it along with me. I appreciate that my alt, as you put it, has been left alone. I am trying not to insult anyone here with it. I agree this is off-topic, which doesn't mean it can't be discussed here. However, I can slide on over to S&C if you like. BEFORE I do, I would ask that you read through the thread yourself, and for good measure, the one on ISIS and the Middle East, and observe the rampant, disgusting level of anti-Semitism you will find in both of them.

EDIT: It should be noted that when I am told that anti-Semitism is not against the rules, basically that means that my very identity as a person can be insulted and degraded, but I am not allowed to insult back. My immediate question to that is simple: what kind of BS is that? That sounds pretty damned unreasonable. So, read the above threads, and see just how insulting it got in both of them before you judge me too harshly. Then come talk to me in a private message if you wish, or here. I'm open to either. And do note that I do NOT question my banning. As I said, I deserved it, at least the first time. And then, if you ask me to go over to S&C, and point out specific posts, I'll be happy to do that. But try to be fair to me first.

After that, fire off a message to me, telling me HONESTLY what you think. If, after that, its necessary for me to go and manually point out what I'm talking about, I'll do that. But I figure you should be able to read reasonably well, and see this for yourself, since you seem to be a pretty smart fellow.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

And it should be pointed out, that yes, Israel has nukes. Sure. But could they ever use them? No. The time for Israel to actually use a nuke would be either too early or too late. Anyone it might consider using one against lives too close. The fallout would affect Israel itself. And if Israel used it, even without the above problem, it would be accused of starting a war. If it waited until it was attacked to use one, it would no longer matter. The victory would probably be pyrrhic. So Israel has them simply to say to other countries in the area, "Fine. Attack us. Destroy us. We will take your ass down with us, and most of our neighbours along with us both."

[Lord Dave]

LORD DAVE, you have made my point for me. Thank you.

And what point did I make exactly?  Because last time I checked, you don't need to practice jeudaism to be a Jew.  You said something similar yourself.  So unless you wish to claim that you are physically incapable of not openky practicing your religion for a few days, you can visit Saudi Arabia just as I can.

PARSIFAL, you know, I'm not contesting the fact that I was banned. To be honest, I deserved it, at least the first time. I just believe that several other people deserved it along with me. I appreciate that my alt, as you put it, has been left alone. I am trying not to insult anyone here with it. I agree this is off-topic, which doesn't mean it can't be discussed here. However, I can slide on over to S&C if you like. BEFORE I do, I would ask that you read through the thread yourself, and for good measure, the one on ISIS and the Middle East, and observe the rampant, disgusting level of anti-Semitism you will find in both of them.

Anti-American isn't against the rules either.  And being jewish is a culture isn't it?

[Yonah ben Amittai]

I suggest that you refer to the law codes of Saudi Arabia. If you are known to be Jewish at all, you are not permitted to enter the Kingdom. Atheist Jews are no different than other Jews, or for that matter other atheists, since atheists can be executed for denial of God's existence. Furthermore, if you have ever visited Israel in such manner that your passport bears a stamp from that country, you also will not be permitted entry to Saudi Arabia for any reason whatsoever.

I am NOT going to take the time to hunt down the laws for you. If you want to do that, that is your problem, not mine. I already know Saudi law from discussion with Arabs at the Mosque. And no, I was never a Muslim. I studied it for two years. there is a difference.

Being Jewish is ethno-religious. That is the difference. It is more than just being a culture.

[Lord Dave]

I suggest that you refer to the law codes of Saudi Arabia. If you are known to be Jewish at all, you are not permitted to enter the Kingdom. Atheist Jews are no different than other Jews, or for that matter other atheists, since atheists can be executed for denial of God's existence. Furthermore, if you have ever visited Israel in such manner that your passport bears a stamp from that country, you also will not be permitted entry to Saudi Arabia for any reason whatsoever.

I am NOT going to take the time to hunt down the laws for you. If you want to do that, that is your problem, not mine. I already know Saudi law from discussion with Arabs at the Mosque. And no, I was never a Muslim. I studied it for two years. there is a difference.

Ooohhhh, so they did what you feel should be done to Muslims.  Guess they're just better than you at keeping "inferior" religions out eh?

Being Jewish is ethno-religious. That is the difference. It is more than just being a culture.

You have stated quite clearly that a Jew is still a Jew even if they don't practice.

I think you and Muslims are more alike than you want to admit.  In fact, aside from Muslims backing up their talk with action as well as astronger conviction to their faith,  I'm at a difficulty to see the difference between you and the average Muslim.
Guess that's how you blended so well eh?  Those Jewish traits just don't show in you do they?