[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Please note the revision in my last paragraph. And no, it is not barbaric at all. It is a way of governing people, and keeping the passions from ruling. What's more, it seems to have worked for 4500 years.

[beardo]

And Jews think themselves better than Muslims...

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

The difference is that we don't want to impose our beliefs on non-Jews. The Muslims do.

[EnigmaZV]

The difference is that we don't want to impose our beliefs on non-Jews. The Muslims do.

Well, to be blunt, if you violate the Sabbath in some parts of the world (say, KJ), the only reason they WON'T execute you is because they don't have the authority to do so. If they could, I expect they probably would.

How do you reconcile these two statements?

[Vindictus]

Annnd Yaakov just explained how some Jews are just as bad as some Muslims. Oy vey!

[beardo]

What is KJ?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

KJ is Kiryas Joel, a town in New York that is 99% Jewish, nearly all of the Satmar Hasidic group, that essentially dominates everything to do with the town . And I reconcile the statements by saying that the people of KJ aren't seeking to make non-Jews live there. Yes, they are a bit nasty toward their neighbours, and they do want to expand, but not so as to acquire the land and property in which non-Jews are now living. Rather, they want to acquire what is now empty land and then build on it to allow their ever growing population room to expand.

But yes, if you are stupid enough to go into an area that is predominantly Jewish, and attempt to impose your beliefs on the native population, then you deserve whatever happens to you, including stoning, frankly. I have no problem if the people in KJ want to stone the hypothetical girl wearing Daisy Dukes in the middle of town.

In fact, I wouldn't even object to Muslims in London feeling the same way, except for one minor difference. They took over a portion of the main city that people have to travel through. Nobody HAS to travel to or through KJ. It is easily avoidable. Plus, I'm not worried about the people of KJ being good citizens. They don't feel the need to blow shit up. The Muslims do. But if the Muslims wanted to be left alone and follow their own unusual customs, it wouldn't bother me at all as such. I just don't trust the bastards.

[Rama Set]

KJ is Kiryas Joel, a town in New York that is 99% Jewish, nearly all of the Satmar Hasidic group, that essentially dominates everything to do with the town . And I reconcile the statements by saying that the people of KJ aren't seeking to make non-Jews live there. Yes, they are a bit nasty toward their neighbours, and they do want to expand, but not so as to acquire the land and property in which non-Jews are now living. Rather, they want to acquire what is now empty land and then build on it to allow their ever growing population room to expand.

But yes, if you are stupid enough to go into an area that is predominantly Jewish, and attempt to impose your beliefs on the native population, then you deserve whatever happens to you, including stoning, frankly. I have no problem if the people in KJ want to stone the hypothetical girl wearing Daisy Dukes in the middle of town.

In fact, I wouldn't even object to Muslims in London feeling the same way, except for one minor difference. They took over a portion of the main city that people have to travel through. Nobody HAS to travel to or through KJ. It is easily avoidable. Plus, I'm not worried about the people of KJ being good citizens. They don't feel the need to blow shit up. The Muslims do. But if the Muslims wanted to be left alone and follow their own unusual customs, it wouldn't bother me at all as such. I just don't trust the bastards.

They are not native to KJ and they are governed by the laws of the USA.  Why dont they have to follow them?  Throwing a rock at someone for not following their religious belief is utterly illegal, immoral and unconstitutional.  They should be deported and if they don't want to leave, they should be shot. (Sound familiar?)

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.

Throwing said rock is certainly not immoral to the person throwing it. It is not in the constitution one way or the other. Whether its illegal or not may or may not depend on whether you're standing inside KJ or not.

[Rama Set]

Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.

They are in New York right and subject to the laws of that state and the USA?

Throwing said rock is certainly not immoral to the person throwing it.

  So what?  The law is an unreasonable infringement on someone's right to life.  There are very few acts that could be considered so obviously immoral as throwing a rock at someone for not conforming to their beliefs.  This is getting more barbaric by the minute.

It is not in the constitution one way or the other.

You are not allowed to make unreasonable restrictions on people's freedom of religion in the States.  I guarantee you, not a judge in the country would find that it is a reasonable restriction to pelt someone with rocks.

Whether its illegal or not may or may not depend on whether you're standing inside KJ or not.

Nope.  Criminal activity is governed by the State legislature.  What are you smoking man?

Interesting to read that there have been a number of cases brought against KJ for impinging constitutional rights, all of which they have lost, and there is currently a case to dissolve the municipality on the grounds that it is a corrupt theocracy in practice.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Actually, I tend to agree more than disagree, but that has been their position, and they may have lost all the court cases, but they continue to exist. I suspect probably for several reasons:

1. They probably have appealed each case from hell to breakfast.
2. I expect that given the behaviour of Muslims both in England AND here, there is likely a tendency among officials not to want to get involved.
3. Anyone who does get involved risks being accused of anti-Semitism or worse.

And on a personal level, I'll be honest. You go into somebody's shit, you should probably do as the Romans do. That's just a personal opinion, and I'm not saying they should back it up with stoning (that's a bit much), but still, its called, be a little sensitive, fucker, or go home.

I have to go. I'll see you all later.

[Rama Set]

And on a personal level, I'll be honest. You go into somebody's shit, you should probably do as the Romans do. That's just a personal opinion, and I'm not saying they should back it up with stoning (that's a bit much), but still, its called, be a little sensitive, fucker, or go home.

Exactly.  They should conform to the laws of the USA.

[Vindictus]

According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation. More than two-thirds of residents live below the federal poverty line and 40% receive food stamps

Yep, religion sure is great.

[Rama Set]

According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation. More than two-thirds of residents live below the federal poverty line and 40% receive food stamps

Yep, religion sure is great.

That is not so much a symptom of religiosity so much as cultural xenophobia I think.

[Vindictus]

That's true, I'm just trying to stir the pot. I should have specified Judaism for greater rustles.

[Rama Set]

Fair enough. I don't know why a pack of Jewish barbarians would be great though.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Well, most of us know Vindictus is as stupid as he looks. But it is true that they do have the highest poverty rate in the USA. That again, is not so much from religion as it is from the social rules that give them VERY large families with only one income. It tends to be from an over literal interpretation of religion, if anything.

But it does also have its roots in xenophobia as well. Most Jews in America tend to regard KJ as kind of the the unwelcome stinky dog that sits under the hutch and barks at everybody, that nobody really wants, but can't bring ourselves to get rid of. As much as they may give the rest of us a rather bad name, they are still family.

[Rama Set]

Well, most of us know Vindictus is as stupid as he looks.

I have no idea how he looks so.. Yeah.

But it is true that they do have the highest poverty rate in the USA. That again, is not so much from religion as it is from the social rules that give them VERY large families with only one income. It tends to be from an over literal interpretation of religion, if anything.

Their social rules come from their religion.

But it does also have its roots in xenophobia as well. Most Jews in America tend to regard KJ as kind of the the unwelcome stinky dog that sits under the hutch and barks at everybody, that nobody really wants, but can't bring ourselves to get rid of. As much as they may give the rest of us a rather bad name, they are still family.
[/quote]

Which is exactly why Sam Harris said religious moderates are the issue. If moderates weren't pussies then all the rock throwing religious nut bags would be banished to the annals of history.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Well, the people of KJ aren't really harming anyone. If you don't like the way they live, don't go there. No one is required to go there. It is not necessary to pass through KJ to get where you are going. In fact, its rather out of the way. The only time KJ ever comes up as a problem is when the Township of Monroe comes up, because it is by far the largest Village in the Township. This gives it a disproportionate amount of power in the Township electoral and other political processes. And when everyone votes the way the Grand Rabbi asks them to vote, this can be interpreted as undercutting the democratic principles on which the Republic was founded. Frankly, I am inclined to agree. Am I sure as to how to solve the situation? Not at all. If KJ became its own Township, that may make as many problems for the other three villages as it solves. I am not from KJ, and don't keep up with local politics. I have a hard enough time following what happens here in Iowa.

But I would like to see the residents of KJ be able to live the life to which they are accustomed, and to do so with only minimal interference on the life of the Gentile population, or for that matter, only minimal influence of the Gentiles on the Jewish population.

Surely, there must be a way. It must only be found.

[Rama Set]

Yeah. Move to Israel.