[Particle Person]

Frankly, a legitimate military target renders anything in it a part of that target. Collateral damage is unfortunate, but such is life. See the bombing of Berlin or Dresden as an example. 

You mean the two events that are considered by many to be prime examples of overzealous and unnecessarily crude military action?

[Lord Dave]

ITT: A Jew claims that violent retaliations are justified when the target hates you.

Yaakov is literally Muslim.

[fappenhosen]

No, I am just acknowledging reality.

So acknowledge the reality that Jewish people aren't going to get their own country.

[markjo]

If someone is using a rocket launcher to kill your people, and you have to stop that from happening, and you know there are people there, and you want them to leave, but they do not leave, then it is your right to remove the rocket launcher, even if you know that the people attached to it will die as a result. This is what happens in wars.

No.  This is why we have special forces (Mossad).

At least, this is what happens in wars that are fought in any sane way.

You seem to have a rather unusual definition of "sane".

The USA and Britain did not apologise for bombing Berlin or Dresden. The USA did not apologise for bombing Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Different war, different times and different weapons.  Precision munitions did not exist during WWII.

Shit happens, dude. That's why its not a good idea to fight a war when you know you can't win it.

Apparently you don't realize that wars are not fought just on the battlefield any more.  These days wars are also fought in the media.  Dirty little secrets from both sides have a much easier time finding the light of day.

[Rama Set]

No, I am just acknowledging reality.

So we should tell Jews to "just get over" the Hocaust then. Fair enough. I will give them your number if they have a problem with that.

[Tau]

In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?

Well, but the American military has talent. The Israeli military just has anger issues. It's not a fair comparison.

[Lord Dave]

In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?

Well, but the American military has talent. The Israeli military just has anger issues. It's not a fair comparison.

I guess.
I mean, Israel has some of the most advanced weapons, not the most advanced soldiers.

[Tau]

In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?

Well, but the American military has talent. The Israeli military just has anger issues. It's not a fair comparison.

I guess.
I mean, Israel has some of the most advanced weapons, not the most advanced soldiers.

And they get the weapons from us. They have nothing of their own to add to the equation.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Actually, yes, I've thought that for now, Jews do need to get over the Holocaust. Its about damn time. I mean, yes, we need to remember it, acknowledge it, pray for the victims and so-forth, but put on our big-boy pants and quit making ourselves the "oh feel sorry for me" group.

As far as the Mossad goes, again, you can't send even them (and yes, they are acknowledged as about the best special forces/CIA/FBI like group in the world) to take out 50 to a hundred targets at once. I notice no one brought that into the equation. Given that Israel has won every single war or conflict it has ever fought except the one it was not allowed to fight (the Suez matter), saying they lack talent is simply stupid.

Many, but not all, of their weapons, come from the USA. They invented quite a few of their own, the Uzi being one example.

So, children, grow up. Please observe the note to all the children: the adults are talking! If you can't be one, then go away.

[Rushy]

And they get the weapons from us. They have nothing of their own to add to the equation.

They received  their nuclear arsenal from South Africa during its Apartheid days (Israel supported Apartheid a lot, not surprising). This is right around the same time that JFK vehemently opposed giving Israel nukes because he knew they aren't powerful enough to maintain them and the country is too radical. Didn't take too long for them to assassinate him once that political stance was taken.

[markjo]

As far as the Mossad goes, again, you can't send even them (and yes, they are acknowledged as about the best special forces/CIA/FBI like group in the world) to take out 50 to a hundred targets at once.

No, but they can take out a few in such a way as to "teach the others a lesson".

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Except NO ONE has ever even SUGGESTED that JFK was assassinated by Israel except for your paranoid dumb ass. I mean, I have said, either in this thread or another, that the death of JFK was probably the best thing that ever happened to this country, along with the death of his brother. I don't normally encourage the murder of political leaders, but in their cases, I don't think  there were any alternatives.

And Israel has proven that it handles its nuclear weapons (which it doesn't admit to having) very well, and it has never used them. Not that it really could. I mean, think about it. Using a nuclear weapon in the Middle East would result in Israel being subject to its own bomb's fallout. Its only purpose is to scare. It is either too early to use, or to late to be of any use, or impossible to use.

Re: the apartheid issue, again, there is no similarity between Arabs in Israel and the apartheid system of racial separation that occurred in S. Africa. Arabs of the Occupied Territories are NOT citizens of Israel, and therefore, do not have rights to live in Israel, or to work there, or to vote, or what-have-you. They have far more rights under military occupation than ANY military occupying power has EVER given the occupied in the history of the world. Just compare their situation with Tibet for an example. Please note that Arab citizens of Israel have full rights, and enjoy full status as citizens, with Arabic being an official language, with full rights to practice their faiths, excused from service in the military except by choice, and full voting rights, with representatives in the Knesset.

If killing 2100 people isn't enough to teach so-called "Palestinians" a lesson, what the Hell makes you think that taking out  5-10 rocket launchers will do it? Are you that abysmally stupid?

[markjo]

If killing 2100 people isn't enough to teach so-called "Palestinians" a lesson, what the Hell makes you think that taking out  5-10 rocket launchers will do it? Are you that abysmally stupid?

No, but you apparently are.  If you can take out rocket launchers without killing 2100 innocent civilians teaches the lesson that you can destroy your targets and still be a member of the civilized world.  After all, only barbarians intentionally cause unnecessary pain and suffering to their enemies.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Why, in the name of all sane things, would you send special forces to take out rocket launchers, to risk their lives, when said launchers will only be rebuilt somewhere else within days? Far better to simply fight a real war and get it over with. Besides, Hamas seems to have claimed victory. How the Hell you claim victory after losing 2100 people, half of them militants, I don't begin to comprehend, but ok, fine.

And yes, I said half. The UN, which has no business even existing, says 30%, but then, we all know how trustworthy the great UN is. Such examples as Saudi Arabia, Syria, Cuba, and China have sat on the Human Rights Council. So, with those stellar nations advising all on how to behave ourselves regarding human rights issues, you'll pardon me if I consider the UN a bad fucking joke.

[DuckDodgers]

Hamas isn't trying to eradicate Israel through conventional means anymore, they have targeted something far harder to repair.  Hamas has targeted Israel's reputation on the global stage and has succeeded in making them look like ruthless murders who show no concern for civilian lives.  So far they have done a great job of poking the nest to get them good and angry.  If Israel doesn't change, nations will start to turn on it.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

To which the proper response is to pound them into dogmeat. And then demonstrate the facts of the matter. The truth is the truth. If civilians die, it is the fault of Hamas. If other countries are too stupid to see that, that sounds like a personal problem. Nobody will turn on Israel.

There are several reasons WHY nobody will turn on Israel. They can be summed up as follows:

1. Israel is the heart of Silicon Valley. Yes, I know that is a term used to refer to Central California, but in reality, Israel is producing a huge amount of computer know-how that other countries are then using.

2. Israel is one of the major inventors of new medical technology in the world. Of course, this is to the benefit of the world.

3. Israel invents the best weapons and defence mechanisms on Earth. The Iron Dome may have been financed by the USA, but it was invented and made by Israelis.

4. Israel has developed the best security systems in the world in terms of their airport, their planes, and their general security nationwide. This knowledge is of course used by other countries.

5. Jews make up .02% of the world's population, but have received 22% of all the Nobel Prizes awarded. The world cannot live without Jewish know-how and it knows it. If the world stops supporting Israel, we'll just say fuck you, and take our ball and go home.

You see, my friends, much as the Gentile would like, they can't survive without us. We could survive without you. Our lives would be very different, and probably much harder, but we could do it. You could not survive without us. Our existence greases the society in which you live.

The fact that in the past you restricted us to lending money is an indicator of how much you need us. Somebody had to do it. So you made it our job. And then blamed us because after 500 years, we got good at it!

And ultimately, you need someone you can treat as a scapegoat. You need someone to hate. Without that target to blow shit back, your little pea-brains would likely explode.

Jews have always done the hardest work in the Goy world. We're designed for it. God (at least in my opinion) created Jews to be the whipping boy of the human race so you all could feel fucking good about yourselves. But, then, in 1948, we got ours. And that's what pisses you off. Well, get the fuck over it.

You can hate us as Jews. You can hate Israel as the Jewish State. But fundamentally, deep down in that black pit of a heart you have, you know I am right. Goyim use us as a reason to justify their own poor performance in the world  they inhabit. Welcome to real fucking life. And when their own nations are fucked up, especially as bad as they are in the Middle East (pretty much every nation there is a shithole), they now have the Jewish State to blame and criticise, thus drawing attention away from the real facts, namely, that the other Middle Eastern nations suck big green donkey dick.

So, put on your big-boy pants or big-girl panties, suck it the fuck up, and accept it, you need us far more than we need you. Deal with it.

[Lord Dave]

Do you think Jews are smarter than everyone else?  Because that's what I'm seeing in your comment.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Not inherantly, no. Its not some sort of blood driven thing that says "my race is better than your race" or some crazy batshit stuff like that. But as a culture, we have ALWAYS prized education far more than the majority have. In an age when 95% of Europe was illiterate, EVERY Jewish male could AT LEAST read Hebrew. To this day, the average Jew is far more likely to be college educated than his non-Jewish counterpart, etc, etc.

So no, not inherantly. But culturally, yes, we prize that sort of thing far more than most cultures. Certainly we prize it more than Muslims, who make up 23% of the world's population but have earned only 1% of the Nobel Prizes to date. Of course, I am sure that if they offered prizes in such categories as "how to build a good suicide bomber vest", or "how to turn a plane into a missile", or even the cruder "how to blow shit up", why, then they probably would be at the top of their game!

[markjo]

Why, in the name of all sane things, would you send special forces to take out rocket launchers, to risk their lives, when said launchers will only be rebuilt somewhere else within days?

Well, they could also take out the militants running those rocket launchers while they're there.  Besides, if you prove that rocket launchers in civilian neighborhoods aren't safe, then maybe they'll stop setting them up there.

Far better to simply fight a real war and get it over with.

And even better than that would be to limit collateral damage to innocent civilians as well as your own national reputation.

How the Hell you claim victory after losing 2100 people, half of them militants, I don't begin to comprehend, but ok, fine.

By making Israel look like brutal savages who have no regard for civilian casualties.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

QUOTE: "Well, they could also take out the militants running those rocket launchers while they're there.  Besides, if you prove that rocket launchers in civilian neighborhoods aren't safe, then maybe they'll stop setting them up there."

They know full well, as Israel does, as you do, that they can build those things right back there in about 15 minutes. That is a pointless argument.

QUOTE: "And even better than that would be to limit collateral damage to innocent civilians as well as your own national reputation."

Again, I submit to you that taking the time and effort to find 5 or ten rockets and spend the time and money required to destroy them at great risk to your own people, highly trained people, when they can be rebuilt within 15 minutes, does not seem logical or a in any way a smart way of fighting a war.

QUOTE: "By making Israel look like brutal savages who have no regard for civilian casualties."

Just because the rest of the world wants to have any reason they can find for continued Israel hatred and Jew hatred doesn't mean we as Jews have to watch Israel commit political suicide. That WOULD be just outright felony stupid.