Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?It is a given all maps are flat.
I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?It is a given all maps are flat.
I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was flat.
There is no such thing as a "SE" map.
Seriously???
Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant...
I see. If the FE map were to be taken at face value, it's not possible to travel from the equator going north to the pole, turn 90 degrees left, travel the same amount of distance, turn 90 degrees left again and travel the same amount of distance and end up back where you started. by doing that on a flat map you'd make a square with a missing side and you'd not be back in the same place you started, if you do it on the globe map, you form a triangle and you end up where you started.
Now with that in mind, if you do it in real life, you will end up back where you start. So how on flat earth is that possible?
I made a quick sphere object to show the path with 90 degree turns.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/462006443403640834/517384474632126465/navi1.png)
Yes.Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?It is a given all maps are flat.
I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was not flat.
There is no such thing as a "SE" map.
Seriously???
Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant:You have no independently gleaned evidence to make a personal claim regarding origin.
Maps based on the FE-model and maps based on the SE-model.
Maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to exactly 180° and maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to more than 180°.Drawing three connecting arcs on a flat sheet of paper?
Also, I reckon that a globe does count as a SE-map, even by your definition.It doesn't constitute a map by my definition, or even by that of a dictionary.
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.Yes.Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?It is a given all maps are flat.
I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was not flat.
There is no such thing as a "SE" map.
Seriously???Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant:You have no independently gleaned evidence to make a personal claim regarding origin.
Maps based on the FE-model and maps based on the SE-model.
You do have flat maps depicting travel distances that are relatively accurate.Maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to exactly 180° and maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to more than 180°.Drawing three connecting arcs on a flat sheet of paper?
If you do that, what happens to verified distances?Also, I reckon that a globe does count as a SE-map, even by your definition.It doesn't constitute a map by my definition, or even by that of a dictionary.
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.
Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
In navigation at sea these days most people use either the WGS-84 or Admiralty charts. Most are Mercator projections and there are distortions in the charts. Sailors like those charts because it makes plotting a course easier on the spherical earth. Of course, the charts are just one component of the navigation system. Celestial navigation wouldn't work at all under the flat earth paradigm and sailors would get lost frequently. Of course that doesn't happen and I can personally attest to that fact after a few around the world trips, both going East and West. It has been said that the flat earth paradigm predates the spherical earth one, but I've never seen any flat earth navigation charts or a flat earth nautical almanac. Those who wish to promote a flat earth could do better by producing flat earth navigation charts and some nautical almanacs that could be used on ships. Of course they would have to work, or they would be useless.
The whole idea of a flat earth map is something of an impossibility if you care to ponder the matter.
For over five hundred years people have explored all the seas and land masses of our world making ever more accurate maps on their way. There are few nations which don’t have accurate maps of the areas their territories cover. All this mapping information allows long distance international travel to take place by both land sea and air. Every day millions of journeys are undertaken based on this geographical information these maps supply. All commercial maps bar none are based on the Earth being a globe. If you care to buy a map of Europe or anywhere else for that matter, there are no flat earth options, how could there be? What could be different? The location of all towns, cities, rivers, mountain ranges forests.etc....are known and fixed and unmovable.
Over the years I have been fortunate enough to travel around the USA, Canada, Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor, mostly by road. Back in the day it was using good old foldable paper maps. To say the world is flat because paper maps are flat is akin to saying the world is two dimensional because picture books and TVs are is rather a silly argument. It’s just a convenient pictorial way of representing the world, or sections of it on paper. During my journeys never once was a town, mountain or river in the wrong place. Every town I traveled to was in the position as indicated by the map.
The accuracy and reality of commercial maps rules out the possibility of any alternativies including a flat earth option, it’s just not possible. The big problem however is...no flat earth map......no flat earth.....sorry.
You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.
Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
So you have one instance of it occurring recently (maybe, I can't find the happening you are referring to) and the other three are from the 1700's, 1800's, and I can't even find Ross with just the last name (and I have to assume you mean Cook, but I obviously can't be 100%). That's 4 times you can reference in the last 300 years. 3 of them prior to any real exploration of Antarctica, and the fourth not even seeming to exist. That's hardly 'frequently' as you claimed.You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.
Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
You would assume wrong.So you have one instance of it occurring recently (maybe, I can't find the happening you are referring to) and the other three are from the 1700's, 1800's, and I can't even find Ross with just the last name (and I have to assume you mean Cook, but I obviously can't be 100%). That's 4 times you can reference in the last 300 years. 3 of them prior to any real exploration of Antarctica, and the fourth not even seeming to exist. That's hardly 'frequently' as you claimed.You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.
Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?You would assume wrong.So you have one instance of it occurring recently (maybe, I can't find the happening you are referring to) and the other three are from the 1700's, 1800's, and I can't even find Ross with just the last name (and I have to assume you mean Cook, but I obviously can't be 100%). That's 4 times you can reference in the last 300 years. 3 of them prior to any real exploration of Antarctica, and the fourth not even seeming to exist. That's hardly 'frequently' as you claimed.You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.
Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
James Clark Ross.
Also a Lieutenant Charles Wilkes in the US Navy made note of problems in reckoning and distances.
It is when you consider proportion.
You act as if voyages in the Southern Ocean are a routine occurrence.
Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?Incorrect.
They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica20 times a year (perhaps) they take place and this constitutes, "frequent," according to you?
You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/
Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!
Oh? Did they somehow live past their stated DoD?Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?Incorrect.
Frequent =/= routine. YOU suggest these errors happen frequently. You then suggested voyages in the Southern Ocean aren't routine. I'd say anything that happens that many times in a year for as long as some of those have been going on is fairly routine. But perhaps you disagree with me.They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica20 times a year (perhaps) they take place and this constitutes, "frequent," according to you?
You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/
Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!
If you are so familiar with these supposed routine Antarctica cruises, you should be able to quite easily find:
TOTAL # of cruises per year.
One particular instance of the newest and best liner available (according to the press) and discover the trip had to be shortened considerably due to inaccurate charts necessitating course corrections. particularly near Tierra Del Fuego.Seriously, just give me a fucking link to your source. Your claim, your burden.
In navigation at sea these days most people use either the WGS-84 or Admiralty charts. Most are Mercator projections and there are distortions in the charts. Sailors like those charts because it makes plotting a course easier on the spherical earth. Of course, the charts are just one component of the navigation system. Celestial navigation wouldn't work at all under the flat earth paradigm and sailors would get lost frequently. Of course that doesn't happen and I can personally attest to that fact after a few around the world trips, both going East and West. It has been said that the flat earth paradigm predates the spherical earth one, but I've never seen any flat earth navigation charts or a flat earth nautical almanac. Those who wish to promote a flat earth could do better by producing flat earth navigation charts and some nautical almanacs that could be used on ships. Of course they would have to work, or they would be useless.The whole idea of a flat earth map is something of an impossibility if you care to ponder the matter.
For over five hundred years people have explored all the seas and land masses of our world making ever more accurate maps on their way. There are few nations which don’t have accurate maps of the areas their territories cover. All this mapping information allows long distance international travel to take place by both land sea and air. Every day millions of journeys are undertaken based on this geographical information these maps supply. All commercial maps bar none are based on the Earth being a globe. If you care to buy a map of Europe or anywhere else for that matter, there are no flat earth options, how could there be? What could be different? The location of all towns, cities, rivers, mountain ranges forests.etc....are known and fixed and unmovable.
Over the years I have been fortunate enough to travel around the USA, Canada, Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor, mostly by road. Back in the day it was using good old foldable paper maps. To say the world is flat because paper maps are flat is akin to saying the world is two dimensional because picture books and TVs are is rather a silly argument. It’s just a convenient pictorial way of representing the world, or sections of it on paper. During my journeys never once was a town, mountain or river in the wrong place. Every town I traveled to was in the position as indicated by the map.
The accuracy and reality of commercial maps rules out the possibility of any alternativies including a flat earth option, it’s just not possible. The big problem however is...no flat earth map......no flat earth.....sorry.
Of course every single map ever drawn was done so by a person who had no advantage of an overview of a sphere.
Each map was drawn with the same advantages of eyesight and measuring devices (incapable of detecting supposed arc) while performing a journey, during which the entire time a person was uttering the immortal phrase, "It looks flat to me!"
Your assessment of the necessity of maps at sea are totally incorrect. Accurate maps are vital to the lives of the crew, the ship, and the cargo. The trip from Shanghai, China to Long Beach, CA is more than 6000 miles. You can have countless storms along the way that need to be avoided when possible. It can be cloudy or foggy and you can't see any stars for a week at a time. Often it is necessary to alter course to avoid a known storm that is visible on the satellite maps we get on a daily basis. Do you really think that we turn left at the next wave and go 100 miles until we see a mermaid pointing us in the right direction? Usually a container ship will carry 100's of millions of dollars worth of cargo. Many shippers have their own trackers on top of the containers that can monitor the ship's progress. They will immediately know if the ship has an incompetent navigation officer. You can be sure that very little is left to chance. There is a detailed voyage plan made out and check lists completed before the ship ever leaves the dock. The trip is long, the weather can be bad, and very good detailed charts are vital to our very survival. Our charts allow us to navigate a distance about the same as from going from New York to Los Angles and back again without ever seeing any kind of landmark and arrive at our destination safely and on time.Cool. Please point out the storms on a map.
Again, you are way off. Our weather maps usually come from the Japanese or American weather bureaus and we get them via the internet via our KVH satellite system aboard ship. At sea you can be 1000's of mile from any land and satellite is the only form of communication other than HF radio. Yes, we also get our weather maps via HF weatherFAX but we used that mostly for backup in case the satellite system went off line.Weather prediction has nothing to do with maps, beyond the basic 'it's here.'
Many times we must respond often with a course change due to weather and/or other factors. Other times the course may be clear and we can navigate the whole distance using a pre-programmed route. We rely on accurate charts EVERY time. Our speed can vary due to winds and waves and the weather may be foggy or cloudy for more than 90% of the trip.Are you purposefully ignoring every word I've said, or are you just not reading my posts?
Again, you are way off. Our weather maps usually come from the Japanese or American weather bureaus and we get them via the internet via our KVH satellite system aboard ship. At sea you can be 1000's of mile from any land and satellite is the only form of communication other than HF radio. Yes, we also get our weather maps via HF weatherFAX but we used that mostly for backup in case the satellite system went off line.Weather prediction has nothing to do with maps, beyond the basic 'it's here.'
Simple question: do you simply use data saying a preprogrammed route and do that blindfolded, or do you constantly need to respond to new information and things, lite satellites, that let you know where you are relative to everything else?
We constantly respond to new information and use satellites to let us know where we are relative to everything else.And there you go.
To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.
It's impossible at the present time to make any navigation paths on a flat earth chart because there are no detailed paper charts available that I know of. I can't even find a usable one on the FET website that I could download and print. One is needed that shows accurate latitude and longitude lines on it. Additionally it would have to have a good, accurate scale so distances could be determined. If one becomes available please let me know. Then I would be happy to show you that it would never work for any practical navigational purposes.
It's impossible at the present time to make any navigation paths on a flat earth chart because there are no detailed paper charts available that I know of. I can't even find a usable one on the FET website that I could download and print. One is needed that shows accurate latitude and longitude lines on it. Additionally it would have to have a good, accurate scale so distances could be determined. If one becomes available please let me know. Then I would be happy to show you that it would never work for any practical navigational purposes.
I don't recall us ever designing or making a map; only discussions about models with one or two poles. If you are trying to disprove something, then we expect you to disprove all possibilities.
How can I disprove "A" unless I know exactly what "A" is. I could never prove that an animal inside a box was a cat if you were looking for a proof for a dog. For FET to be anything but a farce you should 'square yourself in the hatch' and put out a map defining exactly what you consider the flat earth geography to be. Otherwise it looks like you aren't really trying to get to the truth, but just trying to encourage more controversy.
With some budget how would you map the world? How do you explain that measured distances help determine the shape of an object and do you agree the WGS84 shape is correct?How can I disprove "A" unless I know exactly what "A" is. I could never prove that an animal inside a box was a cat if you were looking for a proof for a dog. For FET to be anything but a farce you should 'square yourself in the hatch' and put out a map defining exactly what you consider the flat earth geography to be. Otherwise it looks like you aren't really trying to get to the truth, but just trying to encourage more controversy.
There is zero budget to map the world. A lot of the real data is hidden behind multiple layers of assumptions, fixes, and mapping re-projections. I am planning to explain more as my next project after the Universal Accelerator project.
I'm going to say something that's more than likely going to be taken out of context for people to jump down my throat for, but hear me out: people don't use maps for navigation.
On any scale beyond your basic shopping center map, they aren't going to be nearly as useful as landmarks. Ok, yes, you need a map to get a vague idea of what's near where, but that doesn't need to be particularly accurate. Does it really affect your driving if the roads on an atlas are a few degrees off, or centimeters too long, or do you just care about the road names and junctions?
Even at sea, they use the stars as reference points. All they really need a map for is to work out which constellation to head for, and by the time they get closer they can just use their eyes. Ok, we can see land, it has that feature which exists there, so we want to head that way... You don't need a particularly accurate map for any of that.
Landmarks are the most important part of navigation, far more than a 100% accurate map. A sketched out sheet that notes down roughly how they relate to each other is as useful as the most accurate flat or spherical map in the world, and even that can be replaced by a few notes. If you try to follow a map alone by, say, ship, you're going to get screwed over in your first day at sea if your angle isn't accurate to within 0.01 degrees, or if there's a single wave or odd wind that adjusts that angle. That's true for any journey, there's no perfect means to point yourself in one direction and go, so the means to course correct are required for navigation, and that's where landmarks come in. 'Head 100km 10 degrees from North,' isn't nearly as useful as 'take the third left, if you reach Burger King you've gone too far.'
So in answer to your question:
1. Yes, there are flat Earth maps that work just fine so long as you use your common sense.
2. No, they don't work alone, but then no map does.
How can I disprove "A" unless I know exactly what "A" is. I could never prove that an animal inside a box was a cat if you were looking for a proof for a dog. For FET to be anything but a farce you should 'square yourself in the hatch' and put out a map defining exactly what you consider the flat earth geography to be. Otherwise it looks like you aren't really trying to get to the truth, but just trying to encourage more controversy.
There is zero budget to map the world. A lot of the real data is hidden behind multiple layers of assumptions, fixes, and mapping re-projections. I am planning to explain more as my next project after the Universal Accelerator project.
To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.
Have you assessed all possible layouts, continental configurations, jet stream paths, navigational assumptions, to make that statement?
While technically no one is reported to have disembarked on the actual Antarctic shelf, these voyages I have listed were indeed exploratory and did make journal entries regarding the area considered to be the Antarctic continent.Oh? Did they somehow live past their stated DoD?Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?Incorrect.
James Cook: Died in 1779
James Weddel: Died in 1834
James Clark Ross: Died in 1862
Charles Wilkes: Died in 1877
Not a single one who was alive in the 20th century, much less the 21st. If you are referring to someone else that happens to share the same name, please provide an actual link to a source. Oh, and btw the first Antarctic expedition? 1907-1909 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod_Expedition So yeah, every single one of them was dead before we started exploring Antarctica.Frequent =/= routine. YOU suggest these errors happen frequently. You then suggested voyages in the Southern Ocean aren't routine. I'd say anything that happens that many times in a year for as long as some of those have been going on is fairly routine. But perhaps you disagree with me.They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica20 times a year (perhaps) they take place and this constitutes, "frequent," according to you?
You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/
Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!
If you are so familiar with these supposed routine Antarctica cruises, you should be able to quite easily find:
TOTAL # of cruises per year.One particular instance of the newest and best liner available (according to the press) and discover the trip had to be shortened considerably due to inaccurate charts necessitating course corrections. particularly near Tierra Del Fuego.Seriously, just give me a fucking link to your source. Your claim, your burden.
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.My point is the map is flat.
Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?Yes and yes.
Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.
What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
And everyone else's point is that your map might be flat but it is not a flat-earth map.I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.My point is the map is flat.
Sure your map might be flat but is it a flat-earth map? Yes or no!Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?Yes and yes.
And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.
Please show me a flat-earth map that is accurate "for most areas of the flat earth" because I know that the Ice-Wall grossly distorts the shapes of countries south of the equatorWhy is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.
What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
They do for most areas of the flat earth.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/yqh9iqdddv88soa/Map%20of%20Australia%201855%20-%20768x640.jpg?dl=1) Map of Australia 1855 | (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hnfgrdfc9iyrc6t/1892%20-%20Gleason%27s%20Map%20Scaled%20-%20Australia%2C%20no%20dimensions.jpg?dl=1) 1892 - Gleason's Map Scaled - Australia |
Australia's Size ComparedNote that the area of the contiguous United States is 8,080,464 km2, a little larger than the area of Australia yet, on that flat-earth map, Australia looks at least twice the area of the United States.
Australia is the planet's sixth largest country after Russia, Canada, China, the USA, and Brazil. At 7,692,024 km2.
(http://www.ga.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0016/12535/GA6264.gif)
Not necessary. Take four points reasonably far apart from each other, then measure the six distances between them. Geometry will do the rest. If earth is not flat, the distances between these points will not be consistent with the distances calculated on the assumption it is flat.To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.
Have you assessed all possible layouts, continental configurations, jet stream paths, navigational assumptions, to make that statement?
That's true but few flat-earthers will accept those distances as accurate. That is why so many try to estimate distances from aircraft flight times.Not necessary. Take four points reasonably far apart from each other, then measure the six distances between them. Geometry will do the rest. If earth is not flat, the distances between these points will not be consistent with the distances calculated on the assumption it is flat.To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.
Have you assessed all possible layouts, continental configurations, jet stream paths, navigational assumptions, to make that statement?
DBX | PEK | SYD | ||||
JNB | 6,390 km | 11,699 km | 11,045 km | |||
DBX | xxx | 5,857 km | 12,039 km | |||
PEK | xxx | xxx | 8,934 km |
All maps depict a flat earth.And everyone else's point is that your map might be flat but it is not a flat-earth map.I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.My point is the map is flat.Quote from: totallackeySure your map might be flat but is it a flat-earth map? Yes or no!Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?Yes and yes.
And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.Quote from: totallackeyPlease show me a flat-earth map that is accurate "for most areas of the flat earth" because I know that the Ice-Wall grossly distorts the shapes of countries south of the equatorWhy is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.
What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
They do for most areas of the flat earth.
The left hand map is and 1855 one from surveys prior to that time and the one on the right is Australia as on "Gleason's 1892" map:The dimensions scaled off the 1855 map are very close to the current dimensions from Google Earth, etc.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/yqh9iqdddv88soa/Map%20of%20Australia%201855%20-%20768x640.jpg?dl=1)
Map of Australia 1855(https://www.dropbox.com/s/hnfgrdfc9iyrc6t/1892%20-%20Gleason%27s%20Map%20Scaled%20-%20Australia%2C%20no%20dimensions.jpg?dl=1)
1892 - Gleason's Map Scaled - Australia
I live in Australia and I know which is NOT anywhere near the correct shape!
Now look at the areas of the USA and Australia on the usual FE map:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/k5azcyxtrnmqzcf/1892-new-standard-map-of-the-world%20-%20round.jpg?dl=1)
1892-new-standard-map-of-the-world
Compare the true sizes of Australia and the United States:QuoteAustralia's Size ComparedNote that the area of the contiguous United States is 8,080,464 km2, a little larger than the area of Australia yet, on that flat-earth map, Australia looks at least twice the area of the United States.
Australia is the planet's sixth largest country after Russia, Canada, China, the USA, and Brazil. At 7,692,024 km2.
(http://www.ga.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0016/12535/GA6264.gif)
Now, if perchance, I have chosen the incorrect map for the flat earth, please show us the correct one.
On the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.Yeah, I would like to obtain a copy of that.
I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
All maps depict a flat earth.
They are drawn on flat paper.
In regard to how area/size is depicted, when I was growing up, Greenland used to be twice the size of Africa.
Your objection, while noted, is specious and inconsequential.
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.My point is the map is flat.Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?Yes and yes.
And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.
What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
They do for most areas of the flat earth.
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.
This is not Scott's own account but does contain the most southerly point reached:On the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.Yeah, I would like to obtain a copy of that.
I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
Name the work please.
The Story of RRS Discovery (https://www.rrsdiscovery.com/exploration-article/the-story/)
Southern Journey
On November 2nd 1902 Scott, Wilson and Shackleton set off to cross the Great Ice Barrier and explore the frozen desert beyond. With them were nineteen dogs pulling five sledges laden with 1,853 lbs of supplies and equipment. On November 25th they had passed latitude 80º south, charting new lands and features every day. But there was a heavy price to pay. One by one the under-nourished dogs began to die. The men too were beginning to suffer dreadfully. They carried on until December 30th, when, at latitude 82º 17’, they reluctantly turned for home. Shackleton was in the advanced stages of scurvy, incapacitated and coughing up blood through his congested throat. Against near impossible odds they arrived back at Discovery on February 3rd 1903. They had trudged over 950 miles in 93 days, travelling further south than any man before them.
By December 1903 there was 20 miles of ice between Discovery and the open sea with no apparent way out. On January 4th 1904 two relief ships arrived, Morning and Terra Nova. Finally, on February 16th controlled explosions were used to blow Discovery free from her icy prison and the expedition headed for home.
Landfall was made at Spithead on September 10th 1904 to a rapturous reception. Scott was acclaimed as a national hero and awarded numerous honours.
Maps Owje: ANTARCTICA MAP 1906 (http://mapas.owje.com/maps/10960_antarctica-map-1906.html)
(http://mapas.owje.com/img/Mapa-historico-de-la-Antartida-1906-975.jpg)
Inset maps of Cape Town, Cape of Good Hope, Magalhaes Strait, Hobart, Port Elizabeth. Source: Justhus Perthes
That map appears to suggest that the Antarctic coast was only partially explored.It was only partly explored at that time because lots of pack-ice got in the way of the land but the perimeter of that was mapped at least approximately - its position changes.
That map appears to suggest that the Antarctic coast was only partially explored.
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?
I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?
I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
I found this map to be pretty accurate:
https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.
Is this serious? There are planes, trains, cars, horses, motorcycles and the link who can navigate hundreds and thousands of square miles on this planet.
I believe, from personal experience, this can be done using a map. Please don't take my word for it. Take a road trip across America.
What tools do you believe are making this possible?
The State Plane Coordinate System (SPS or SPCS) is a set of 124 geographic zones or coordinate systems designed for specific regions of the United States. Each state contains one or more state plane zones, the boundaries of which usually follow county lines. There are 110 zones in the contiguous US, with 10 more in Alaska, 5 in Hawaii, and one for Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands. The system is widely used for geographic data by state and local governments. Its popularity is due to at least two factors. First, it uses a simple Cartesian coordinate system to specify locations rather than a more complex spherical coordinate system (the geographic coordinate system of latitude and longitude). By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations.
Originally, the state plane coordinate systems were based on the North American Datum of 1927 (NAD27). Later, the more accurate North American Datum of 1983 (NAD83) became the standard (a geodetic datum is the way a coordinate system is linked to the physical Earth). More recently there has been an effort to increase the accuracy of the NAD83 datum using technology that was not available in 1983.
United States Stateplane Zones - NAD83
Metadata Updated: August 11, 2016
U.S. State Plane Zones (NAD 1983) represents the State Plane Coordinate System (SPCS) Zones for the 1983 North American Datum within United States.
While the Web Mercator's formulas are for the spherical form of the Mercator, geographical coordinates are required to be in the WGS 84 ellipsoidal datum.
In the meantime, here are a few of the main differences between WGS 84 and NAD83:
The coordinate system for WGS 84 is geographic, and the NAD83 system is projected.
WGS84 doesn't define a projection, so it's up to the GIS software to decide which projection to use for displaying the data on the screen (unless you manually pick a projection, of course).
The Voyage of the DiscoveryOn the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.Yeah, I would like to obtain a copy of that.
I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
Name the work please.
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.
Is this serious? There are planes, trains, cars, horses, motorcycles and the link who can navigate hundreds and thousands of square miles on this planet.
I believe, from personal experience, this can be done using a map. Please don't take my word for it. Take a road trip across America.
What tools do you believe are making this possible?
Traditional flat map making methods are making it possible. See the following article:
The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections (https://gis.utah.gov/nad83-and-webmercator-projections/)
The above article explains that on the inside of the spherical models such as WebMercator (the web based version of WSG 84), it takes data from a mess of smaller flat maps to present more accurate data. The flat maps are more accurate, as the author describes.
NAD83 = Flat Map Coordinate System
UTM NAD83 is a projected coordinate system that represents physical locations abstracted to a flat, cartesian coordinate system. The UTM NAD83 projection uses the GRS80 ellipsoid and a center-of-the-earth anchor point as its datum, both of which are slightly different than the WGS datum.
Welcome to Lesson Six of this GPS course. And this time, we'll be talking about two coordinate systems. And I have a little bit of discussion concerning heights. We've touched on that a little bit. Now these coordinate systems that we're going to discuss are plane coordinate systems based upon the fiction that the earth is flat, which, of course, immediately introduces distortion. However, much of GIS work—and GPS work as well—is done based upon this presumption.
A decade or two ago, I was the instructor for some introductory surveying courses at a community college. In the first class we would define “plane surveying” as surveying that did not take into consideration the curvature of earth, and “geodetic surveying” as that which did. That was about the only time the two categories received anywhere near equal attention. Oh, we would point out (still in that first lecture) some of the real-world evidence of a non-flat earth, such as the fact that the length of an 11.5-mile arc on the earth's surface is only five hundredths of a foot longer than its subtended chord, or that the sum of the angles in a spherical triangle on the earth’s surface having an area of 75 square miles is only one second greater than the angle sum of the same size plane triangle. (Even today I get a kick out of those dramatic tidbits. I’m sure a real geodesist would roll his or her eyes at such trivia!) But those examples were used as reasons for not focusing—no, for not mentioning—geodetic concepts for the rest of the semester. We would end the ten-minute token nod to geodetic surveying with the tongue-in-cheek remark, “Therefore, for this class, we will respect the time-honored principle handed down through the ages—that the earth is flat.” And, truth be known, that’s probably not a bad narrowing of a dauntingly broad subject.
But more than narrowing, it was simply that few rank-and-file surveyors in private practice ever had occasion to use geodetic concepts in their daily work. Even when we dutifully enrolled in the occasional State Plane Coordinate seminar, the principles quickly faded from memory from lack of use. If a surveyor from the general population had ever even heard of the geoid and its relationship to the ellipsoid, and where mean sea level fit into the picture, hearing about it was as far it went.
The State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
significant error.
A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
positions. Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.
If you believe that the earth is round then you believe that the round earth locations have been abstracted to the flat map of NAD83. It has a simple x and y coordinate system. There is no z. It's a state plane coordinate system. References are provided above.Actual distances prove the round earth is the starting point. Cartography then produces maps.
It says that it uses the GRS80 ellipsoid as its center-of-earth anchor point, likely to integrate with other systems such as WGS; not that it's a round earth map.
From https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog862/book/export/html/1644 we read:QuoteWelcome to Lesson Six of this GPS course. And this time, we'll be talking about two coordinate systems. And I have a little bit of discussion concerning heights. We've touched on that a little bit. Now these coordinate systems that we're going to discuss are plane coordinate systems based upon the fiction that the earth is flat, which, of course, immediately introduces distortion. However, much of GIS work—and GPS work as well—is done based upon this presumption.
Another comment: https://www.pobonline.com/articles/86585-geodetic-surveying-made-plainQuoteA decade or two ago, I was the instructor for some introductory surveying courses at a community college. In the first class we would define “plane surveying” as surveying that did not take into consideration the curvature of earth, and “geodetic surveying” as that which did. That was about the only time the two categories received anywhere near equal attention. Oh, we would point out (still in that first lecture) some of the real-world evidence of a non-flat earth, such as the fact that the length of an 11.5-mile arc on the earth's surface is only five hundredths of a foot longer than its subtended chord, or that the sum of the angles in a spherical triangle on the earth’s surface having an area of 75 square miles is only one second greater than the angle sum of the same size plane triangle. (Even today I get a kick out of those dramatic tidbits. I’m sure a real geodesist would roll his or her eyes at such trivia!) But those examples were used as reasons for not focusing—no, for not mentioning—geodetic concepts for the rest of the semester. We would end the ten-minute token nod to geodetic surveying with the tongue-in-cheek remark, “Therefore, for this class, we will respect the time-honored principle handed down through the ages—that the earth is flat.” And, truth be known, that’s probably not a bad narrowing of a dauntingly broad subject.
But more than narrowing, it was simply that few rank-and-file surveyors in private practice ever had occasion to use geodetic concepts in their daily work. Even when we dutifully enrolled in the occasional State Plane Coordinate seminar, the principles quickly faded from memory from lack of use. If a surveyor from the general population had ever even heard of the geoid and its relationship to the ellipsoid, and where mean sea level fit into the picture, hearing about it was as far it went.
Flat Maps = Standard
Here is another source that the spherical models rely on the flat maps:
https://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/met/Align/GPS/CCS83.pdfQuoteThe State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
significant error.
A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
positions. Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.
Again, we see read that Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be "projected" on to their corresponding plane coordinate position for these spherical earth models to work.
Traditional flat map making methods are making it possible. See the following article:
The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections (https://gis.utah.gov/nad83-and-webmercator-projections/)
The above article explains that on the inside of the spherical models such as WebMercator (the web based version of WSG 84), it takes data from a mess of smaller flat maps to present more accurate data. The flat maps are more accurate, as the author describes.
NAD83 = Flat Map Coordinate System
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_SystemQuoteThe State Plane Coordinate System (SPS or SPCS) is a set of 124 geographic zones or coordinate systems designed for specific regions of the United States. Each state contains one or more state plane zones, the boundaries of which usually follow county lines. There are 110 zones in the contiguous US, with 10 more in Alaska, 5 in Hawaii, and one for Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands. The system is widely used for geographic data by state and local governments. Its popularity is due to at least two factors. First, it uses a simple Cartesian coordinate system to specify locations rather than a more complex spherical coordinate system (the geographic coordinate system of latitude and longitude). By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations.
NAD83 is a flat coordinate system.
Web Mercator = WSG 84
The full name of Web Mercator is WGS 84 Web Mercator
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Mercator_projectionQuoteWhile the Web Mercator's formulas are for the spherical form of the Mercator, geographical coordinates are required to be in the WGS 84 ellipsoidal datum.
It's a web-based version of WGS 84. The WGS part is also mentioned in the Earth Not Round! article.
NAD83 is one of them. These are all flat coordinate systems for different locations around the earth. It's taking data from flat systems, because as the "Earth Not Round!" article said, it is these flat systems that are more accurate and give out more accurate figures.
The State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
significant error.
A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
positions. Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.
Nope. It says right here:The spherical earth model is reality.
https://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/met/Align/GPS/CCS83.pdfQuoteThe State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
significant error.
A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
positions. Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.
The State Plane Coordinate Systems are flat surfaces.
The Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be projected to their corresponding plane coordinate positions for these spherical earth models to work.
Nope. It says right here:
https://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/met/Align/GPS/CCS83.pdfQuoteThe State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
significant error.
A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
positions. Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.
The State Plane Coordinate Systems are flat surfaces.
The Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be projected to their corresponding plane coordinate positions for these spherical earth models to work.
And your reading allows you to extrapolate what you provide here as substantive evidence of a continent?The Voyage of the DiscoveryOn the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.Yeah, I would like to obtain a copy of that.
I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
Name the work please.
There is a copy online here (https://archive.org/details/voyageofdiscover01scot), the map I was talking about is at p 410 here (https://archive.org/details/voyageofdiscover01scot/page/410).
Nope. It says right here:
https://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/met/Align/GPS/CCS83.pdfQuoteThe State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
significant error.
A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
positions. Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.
The State Plane Coordinate Systems are flat surfaces.
The Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be projected to their corresponding plane coordinate positions for these spherical earth models to work.
Untrue. "Geodetic positions on the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate positions."
It says nothing like, "in doing it makes these these spherical earth models work."
It's not working in reverse. Simply, a spherical model/datum is used then projected on to a flat map.
Geographic Coordinate System (GCS): An unprojected coordinate system that uses latitude and longitude to define the locations of points on a sphere or spheroid. The use of longitude and latitude is encouraged for general reference and distribution of national framework data because it provides a seamless coordinate system for most of the United States. Geographic coordinates can be readily projected onto a planar coordinate system to display data properly or measure distances accurately. The Geographic Coordinate System is the recommended coordinate system for unprojected GIS data sets that cover the entire geographic extent of West Virginia.
...
State Plane Coordinate System (SPCS): A projected coordinate system used in the United State that divides each state into one or more zones to minimize distortion and to maintain accuracy of one part in 10,000. West Virginia State Plane, also known as the West Virginia Coordinate System of 1983 (referenced to NAD 1983 Datum), is based on the Lambert Conformal Conic projection. West Virginia State Plane is divided into two zones, the North Zone and South Zone. Section 30-13A-17, paragraph c of the West Virginia State Code http://wvgis.wvu.edu/otherdocs/standardsandpubs/spcs_wvcode.pdf states that the official unit of measure is meters, although many mapping professionals and surveyors still prefer U.S. Survey Feet. State Plane is utilized for large-scale mapping projects and is a popular projected coordinate system among county governments and land surveyors.
I believe the language has been very clear. See the following:Tom, you do realize that the quote that you provided answers your own question, don't you?
http://wvgis.wvu.edu/data/otherdocs/standardsandpubs/wv_coordinate_systems_jan02.htmlQuoteGeographic Coordinate System (GCS): An unprojected coordinate system that uses latitude and longitude to define the locations of points on a sphere or spheroid. The use of longitude and latitude is encouraged for general reference and distribution of national framework data because it provides a seamless coordinate system for most of the United States. Geographic coordinates can be readily projected onto a planar coordinate system to display data properly or measure distances accurately. The Geographic Coordinate System is the recommended coordinate system for unprojected GIS data sets that cover the entire geographic extent of West Virginia.
...
State Plane Coordinate System (SPCS): A projected coordinate system used in the United State that divides each state into one or more zones to minimize distortion and to maintain accuracy of one part in 10,000. West Virginia State Plane, also known as the West Virginia Coordinate System of 1983 (referenced to NAD 1983 Datum), is based on the Lambert Conformal Conic projection. West Virginia State Plane is divided into two zones, the North Zone and South Zone. Section 30-13A-17, paragraph c of the West Virginia State Code http://wvgis.wvu.edu/otherdocs/standardsandpubs/spcs_wvcode.pdf states that the official unit of measure is meters, although many mapping professionals and surveyors still prefer U.S. Survey Feet. State Plane is utilized for large-scale mapping projects and is a popular projected coordinate system among county governments and land surveyors.
Please explain for us why a spherical model being projected onto a planar coordinate system would display data properly or measure distances accurately.
According to "common knowledge" the opposite should be true.Common knowledge says that the smaller the zones projected, the smaller the distortions.
The Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be projected to their corresponding plane coordinate positions for these spherical earth models to work.I suspect you're trolling, but if the earth is flat then why is any projection necessary?
Markjo, whatever justification you want to give it, they are taking data from flat maps. I don't see how it can be successfully argued that the earth is round, but flat maps are used because they "minimize distortion".Why do you need funding to produce a map of the world, which will be flat, when they exist according to you?
All of this is entirely contrary to what you guys have been telling us for the last 13 years about these spherical models.
Markjo, whatever justification you want to give it, they are taking data from flat maps. I don't see how it can be successfully argued that the earth is round, but flat maps are used because they "minimize distortion".Where do they state projecting it onto a flat plane 'minimizes distortion'? Was this from earlier? Your most recent one states
All of this is entirely contrary to what you guys have been telling us for the last 13 years about these spherical models.
A projected coordinate system used in the United State that divides each state into one or more zones to minimize distortion
Markjo, whatever justification you want to give it, they are taking data from flat maps. I don't see how it can be successfully argued that the earth is round, but flat maps are used because they "minimize distortion".
All of this is entirely contrary to what you guys have been telling us for the last 13 years about these spherical models.
Markjo, whatever justification you want to give it, they are taking data from flat maps. I don't see how it can be successfully argued that the earth is round, but flat maps are used because they "minimize distortion".No Tom, they're taking data from an ellipsoidal reference model and projecting it to make flat maps because flat maps are easier to work with than ellipsoidal ones. I'm not sure how much more plainly the sources that you cite can say that.
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.
Is this serious? There are planes, trains, cars, horses, motorcycles and the link who can navigate hundreds and thousands of square miles on this planet.
I believe, from personal experience, this can be done using a map. Please don't take my word for it. Take a road trip across America.
What tools do you believe are making this possible?
Traditional flat map making methods are making it possible. See the following article:
There is zero budget to map the world.
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.
There is no Flat Earth Map. We don't know where any discrepancies might show on such a map. There are monopole and bi-polar models, with a near infinite number of continental map configurations.
I have not attempted to piece together the smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work to try and find the configuration of the bigger map. As far as I am aware, it has never been attempted.
Looking for the Flat Earth map is not one of my projects at present time. If you want to make that your goal to dig into these maps and associated assumptions, go ahead. This forum is for your participation.
I have not attempted to piece together the smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work to try and find the configuration of the bigger map. As far as I am aware, it has never been attempted.
Looking for the Flat Earth map is not one of my projects at present time. If you want to make that your goal to dig into these maps and associated assumptions, go ahead. This forum is for your participation.
As we have all gone over many times and has been shown many times, there is no such thing as a flat earth map. And there are no such things as smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work. What you refer to as "smaller flat earth maps" are, again, for the thousandth time, based on a spherical ellipsoidal model of earth. AKA, a Globe.
I have not attempted to piece together the smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work to try and find the configuration of the bigger map. As far as I am aware, it has never been attempted.
Looking for the Flat Earth map is not one of my projects at present time. If you want to make that your goal to dig into these maps and associated assumptions, go ahead. This forum is for your participation.
We can use maps to travel from Kansas to Alaska
then use that exact same map to travel from Alaska to Brazil
then use that exact same map to travel to and from all the continents and countries on earth.
It seems to me like someone has pieced together one full map of locations of all of the countries on earth. Do you disagree?
Why are there so many transformations?
Between any two geographic coordinate systems, there may be zero, one, or many transformations. Some geographic coordinate systems do not have any publicly known transformations because that information is considered to have strategic importance to a government or company.
As we have all gone over many times and has been shown many times, there is no such thing as a flat earth map. And there are no such things as smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work. What you refer to as "smaller flat earth maps" are, again, for the thousandth time, based on a spherical ellipsoidal model of earth. AKA, a Globe.
Those flat maps have an x-y coordinate system. They are literally flat maps from the standard practice of plane surveying.
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:
"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System
And the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.
You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:
"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System
Is that statement based on theory or experiment?QuoteAnd the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.
You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.
I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.
I don't agree that all way-points are available.
some of the coordinate transformations are actually classified by government.
To repeat it is projections, a well established process. See how lines of latitude and longitude appear on a (flat) map.Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:
"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System
Is that statement based on theory or experiment?QuoteAnd the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.
You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.
I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:
"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System
Is that statement based on theory or experiment?QuoteAnd the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.
You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.
I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.
Among other reasons, "Most state plane zones are based on either a transverse Mercator projection or a Lambert conformal conic projection."
The operative word is "projection".
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Usgs_map_traverse_mercator.PNG)
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:
"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System
Is that statement based on theory or experiment?QuoteAnd the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.
You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.
I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.
Among other reasons, "Most state plane zones are based on either a transverse Mercator projection or a Lambert conformal conic projection."
The operative word is "projection".
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Usgs_map_traverse_mercator.PNG)
That flat map looks something like the maps we are proposing with the northern or southern centers.
You are saying that the state plane maps are illustrated on a small part of that map, or alternatively another type of flat map? And that the whole thing is called a "projection" because we live on a globe? I don't see how this helps your argument in any way.
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:
"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System
Is that statement based on theory or experiment?QuoteAnd the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.
You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.
I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.
Among other reasons, "Most state plane zones are based on either a transverse Mercator projection or a Lambert conformal conic projection."
The operative word is "projection".
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Usgs_map_traverse_mercator.PNG)
That flat map looks something like the maps we are proposing with the northern or southern centers.
You are saying that the state plane maps are illustrated on a small part of that flat map, or alternatively another type of flat map? And that the whole map is called a "projection" because we live on a globe? I truly do not see how this trivia helps the meat of your argument in any way.