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Offline rabinoz

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Most discussion about circumnavigation seems to have been about east to west circumnavigation.
But what about circumnavigation from north to south to the South Pole, north to the North Pole then south to the point of departure.

Circumnavigation by air via both the South Pole and the North Pole has been done a few times. Here are a couple.
Quote from: Guiness Book of Records
First Circumnavigation via both Poles by Aircraft
Captain Elgen M. Long achieved the first circum-polar flight in a twin-engined Piper PA-31 Navajo from 5 November to 3 December 1971. He covered 62,597 km (38,896 miles) in 215 flying hours.
from: First Circumnavigation via both Poles by Aircraft, Guiness Book of Records

Quote from: NY Times
Charles Burton 59 a Pole-to-Pole Explorer
Charles Burton, a British explorer who took part in the first expedition to circumnavigate the globe from pole to pole, died on Monday at his family home in the English village of Framfield in Sussex. He was 59 and had suffered a heart attack, said his brother, Richard.
from: Charles Burton 59 a Pole-to-Pole Explorer, NY Times

See a bit more in, Traveling Directly South? « Reply #1 on: February 07, 2017, 12:48:59 PM »

And you can do it yourself:
Quote
THE TRIP OF A LIFETIME DEPARTS JFK AT 11:00 am, October 26, 2018
If you are the kind who would like to tell your children’s children that you were one of an exclusive group of people who have circumnavigated the Earth over both poles, step aboard our private Airbus A340-300 on October 26, 2018. We call this historic one-time flight “THE POLAR EXPLORER.” Jose Roberto Àldana, Travel Curator

The flight starts in New York. From there, in one giant nonstop leap (6,382 miles - 11 hours, 35 minutes) we fly southwards to Río Gallegos, at the southernmost tip of Argentina. Then across the entire continent of Antarctica, for a spectacular daytime crossing directly over the geographical South Pole (6,663 miles - 12 hours, 20 minutes) to Perth, in Western Australia. Our flight then turns north, for a journey to Beijing in China (4,962 miles - 9 hours, 10 minutes). It then crosses continental Russia and the Siberian Plateau over the geographic North Pole to New York (6,710 miles, 12 hours, 45 minutes), landing back at JFK at around 2:00 p.m., approximately 50 hours later.

See more at: THE TRIP OF A LIFETIME DEPARTS JFK AT 11:00 am, October 26, 2018
And here is the route they'll be flying:
A video project by GreaterSapien documenting my trip on a world record flight circumnavigating both the North and South Poles
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1282946600/pole-to-pole-circumnavigation-of-the-globe
The flight from New York has four stops: Rio Gallegos, Argentina, Perth, Australia, Beijing, and back to New York. The info can be found here  (https://www.overthepoles2018.com).
And who knows, if we raise enough, maybe I can entice a big Flat-Earther to come with me?



Regards,
Dens
A YouTube poster, GreaterSapien, has crowdfunded his seat on the flight.
Kickstarter has been 100% funded!
Are any keen flat-earthers going to accompany him?

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Offline nickrulercreator

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2018, 01:46:49 AM »
Not a flat earther but I wish I could go on that trip. That would be so fun.
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2018, 02:49:11 AM »
Not a flat earther but I wish I could go on that trip. That would be so fun.
Likewise. I haven't seen any indications of how bookings are going.
Quote
Economy class US$11,900, only 154 seats available. Middle seats in economy class will be kept vacant for optimal comfort.
Business-class US$19,500, only 32 seats available
But I do wonder how that flight would be possible on either the Ice-Wall map or the BiPolar map.

Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2018, 05:27:27 PM »
Well there are already a large number of flat earth thinkers on youtube already casting aspersions on the flight. By saying "scientific equipment" cannot be taken aboard the flight, they are saying the flight is fake.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2018, 06:54:45 AM »
Well there are already a large number of flat earth thinkers on youtube already casting aspersions on the flight. By saying "scientific equipment" cannot be taken aboard the flight, they are saying the flight is fake.
Of course. Because it shows them to be wrong. Standard FE response.
Even in a bipolar FE model I don't see how this flight could be possible without pacmaning.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2018, 05:41:49 PM »
Well there are already a large number of flat earth thinkers on youtube already casting aspersions on the flight. By saying "scientific equipment" cannot be taken aboard the flight, they are saying the flight is fake.
Of course. Because it shows them to be wrong. Standard FE response.
Even in a bipolar FE model I don't see how this flight could be possible without pacmaning.
Pretty trivial on a bipolar model so really not sure what your issue is, no different to the east/west issue even on the classical model, but as a side note what does pacmanning mean in this context because maybe there's a slang definition i don't know but i checked and i sincerely hope it's not one of them.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pac-manning
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2018, 12:31:01 PM »
Well there are already a large number of flat earth thinkers on youtube already casting aspersions on the flight. By saying "scientific equipment" cannot be taken aboard the flight, they are saying the flight is fake.
Of course. Because it shows them to be wrong. Standard FE response.
Even in a bipolar FE model I don't see how this flight could be possible without pacmaning.
Pretty trivial on a bipolar model so really not sure what your issue is, no different to the east/west issue even on the classical model, but as a side note what does pacmanning mean in this context because maybe there's a slang definition i don't know but i checked and i sincerely hope it's not one of them.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pac-manning

But which "bi-polar model"? The one promoted by Tom Bishop:
I don't know what you are talking about. The Monopole model was rejected by the Flat Earth Society (then called the Universal Zetetic Society) in the early 1900's in favor of a Bi-Polar model after the discovery of the South Magnetic Pole. Look into the literature and research of Lady Blount's era of the society.

The Bi-Polar model is our model, not "Tom Bishop's model." It is an official model of The Flat Earth Society. It is our more modern model, in fact.

The issue is that YouTubers, RE'ers, and even Flat Earth proponents on this website generally do not read any further than Earth Not a Globe to know what the status is.
While I support the UN map as far as explaining basic travel and circumnavigation, I believe that, in truth, the earth may be laid out in a manner similar to a dual Azimuthal Projection, this map:



On this model Antarctica exists as a continent. While there is still an Ice Wall, it is not Antarctica.

There are two celestial poles. One set of stars is rotating above the North Pole, and another set of stars is rotating above the South Pole.

Or your dual earth "bipolar model" as in, Dual Earth Theory.
I can't find any "continental layout" for your DUT, so is an acceptable layout for that?

DET Map Northern Hemiplane
   

DET Map Southern Hemiplane

There is a huge difference.

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2018, 05:27:56 PM »
But which "bi-polar model"? The one promoted by Tom Bishop:
Does it matter? Both answer the question.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2018, 12:59:39 AM »
But which "bi-polar model"? The one promoted by Tom Bishop:
Does it matter? Both answer the question.
Yes, it matters!

What shape is "the real earth"? And it matters because ships have been sailing the oceans for many centuries nd aircraft have been flying international routes for almost a century.
Quote
1919: John Alcock and Arthur Brown land their Vickers Vimy airplane in a bog in Clifden, Ireland, marking the end of the first nonstop flight across the Atlantic.
And these people had to navigate long distances over oceans with no landmarks. They had to get directions and distances correct and no flat earth map has either exactly right.
Your DET is the closest but is out by 57% in the distance around the equator and that is a massive difference when it comes to long distance flights.
Besides you seem unable to get support from flat earthers for your model, so I don't see any future in that.

You flat earthers seem to bicker over the correct flat earth model and the correct flat earth map while the real world just rolls happily (or not) along knowing the correct earth model and the correct earth map.

Now don't curse me for saying this, it's just a fact. Face it!

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2018, 01:12:28 AM »
What shape is "the real earth"?
You didn't ask that, you asked about N-S circumnavgiation on a flat Earth. You've got answers that work, why are you complaining?

Quote
And these people had to navigate long distances over oceans with no landmarks.
Yes, it isn't as though they had a sky full of them for constant course correction.

Quote
Your DET is the closest but is out by 57% in the distance around the equator
Given that I do not have the resources to measure the equator myself and as such have and would never give values based on guesswork for its circumference, where on earth do you get that figure?

Quote
You flat earthers seem to bicker over the correct flat earth model and the correct flat earth map while the real world just rolls happily (or not) along knowing the correct earth model and the correct earth map.
Freedom is always preferrable to blind obedience.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline nickrulercreator

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2018, 11:41:17 PM »
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pac-manning

Do we have any evidence of this phenomena actually happening? This really requires one to stretch their limit of belief.
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2018, 09:57:10 AM »
Pretty trivial on a bipolar model so really not sure what your issue is, no different to the east/west issue even on the classical model, but as a side note what does pacmanning mean in this context because maybe there's a slang definition i don't know but i checked and i sincerely hope it's not one of them.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pac-manning
By pacmanning I mean the idea that you disappear from one part of a map and reappear in another - in Pac Man you go through the tunnel on the right of the screen and reappear on the left.
It's a common criticism by RE that you would have to do that in order to circumnavigate a flat earth. I actually accept that in a unipole FE model you wouldn't have to do that to circumnavigate the "globe" going East or West because "East" and "West" would go round in a circle as the Wiki states:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Circumnavigation

But how could one do a circumnavigation over both Poles? The uni-pole model only has one. And on a bi-polar model how would circumnavigation work either East-West or North-South?
I've shown both models here. On the top one the red circle shows an East-West circumnavigation. I'm not clear how that would work on the bi-polar model or how North-South would work on either model:



Maybe the problem is these maps are not accurate but could you either annotate the above with how circumnavigation would work both East-West and North-South on the bi-polar flat earth model? You say it's trivial, can you show your workings?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2018, 10:27:39 AM »
Pretty trivial on a bipolar model so really not sure what your issue is, no different to the east/west issue even on the classical model, but as a side note what does pacmanning mean in this context because maybe there's a slang definition i don't know but i checked and i sincerely hope it's not one of them.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pac-manning
By pacmanning I mean the idea that you disappear from one part of a map and reappear in another - in Pac Man you go through the tunnel on the right of the screen and reappear on the left.
It's a common criticism by RE that you would have to do that in order to circumnavigate a flat earth. I actually accept that in a unipole FE model you wouldn't have to do that to circumnavigate the "globe" going East or West because "East" and "West" would go round in a circle as the Wiki states:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Circumnavigation

But how could one do a circumnavigation over both Poles? The uni-pole model only has one. And on a bi-polar model how would circumnavigation work either East-West or North-South?
I've shown both models here. On the top one the red circle shows an East-West circumnavigation. I'm not clear how that would work on the bi-polar model or how North-South would work on either model:



Maybe the problem is these maps are not accurate but could you either annotate the above with how circumnavigation would work both East-West and North-South on the bi-polar flat earth model? You say it's trivial, can you show your workings?

It is quite easy to do a north to south circumnavigation on a bi-polar map tbh. just follow the vertical lines (though this doesn't work at 0 longitude).
Doing a east to west circumnavigation you would follow the lines aswell horizontal (though this doesn't work at the equator).

It is still ridiculous and the distances would not be able to be measured on a map, and the plane would still need to turn left/right the entire flight.

Only on a spherical earth would it be possible to have these flights going completely straight while simultaneously following east/west/north/south directions.
Only on a spherical earth would the measurements on the map match the flight times and distances.

With ANY flat earth map, everything works relatively fine for the center parts of the map, but when you reach the outer parts it will fall apart flat as reality kicks it while its trying to make excuses.
Flying from America to India on a bi-polar map becomes meaningless and the shapes of continents on the bi-polar map are even more absurd than on the mono-pole map.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 10:37:03 AM by SphericalEarther »

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Offline AATW

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Re: Circumnavigation of the earth via both the South Pole and North Pole
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2018, 11:00:04 AM »
It is quite easy to do a north to south circumnavigation on a bi-polar map tbh. just follow the vertical lines (though this doesn't work at 0 longitude).
Doing a east to west circumnavigation you would follow the lines aswell horizontal (though this doesn't work at the equator).
Yes, I see what you mean but as you say it doesn't work at the equator and the nearer the equator you go the sharper the turn you have to do to "keep going"
The basic problem is that there is no flat earth map which actually reflects the reality of how people travel every day in terms of distances between places and where they are in relation to one another.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"