Wezzoid

What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« on: January 20, 2016, 08:31:26 PM »
http://www.antarctica.gov.au/webcams

this website shows several pages of webcams in 'antarctica', each with the latest still image, and a timelapse video of the last 2 days.

I had a good look at all of them. Some showed little but bad weather. One of them is a wide lens pointing straight up, which showed the sun doing complete circuits of the horizon without setting!

Another one was a long shot of various low buildings. I could clearly see, apart from brief interruptions from cloud shadows, that the buildings' shadows were going right round the buildings! Not 180 degrees; 360 degrees!

What's that all about then?

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2016, 02:35:55 AM »
http://www.antarctica.gov.au/webcams

this website shows several pages of webcams in 'antarctica', each with the latest still image, and a timelapse video of the last 2 days.

I had a good look at all of them. Some showed little but bad weather. One of them is a wide lens pointing straight up, which showed the sun doing complete circuits of the horizon without setting!

Another one was a long shot of various low buildings. I could clearly see, apart from brief interruptions from cloud shadows, that the buildings' shadows were going right round the buildings! Not 180 degrees; 360 degrees!

What's that all about then?

It's a conspiracy.
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth"

Scripture, science, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion. Can dumb luck create a smart brain?

Please PM me to explain sunsets.

Wezzoid

Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2016, 04:42:59 PM »

It's a conspiracy.

Erm, if I gave such a weak answer as you just did would you let me get away with it? I don't think so. I gave you some real evidence. Either make some sort of effort or concede that FE is fantasy.

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2016, 06:48:08 PM »

It's a conspiracy.

Erm, if I gave such a weak answer as you just did would you let me get away with it? I don't think so. I gave you some real evidence. Either make some sort of effort or concede that FE is fantasy.

I was being sarcastic. It's not a conspiracy, its just more proof the earth is round.
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth"

Scripture, science, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion. Can dumb luck create a smart brain?

Please PM me to explain sunsets.

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Offline ClaireSmythe

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Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2016, 07:10:01 PM »
There are a number of possible answers. It is 'proof' of nothing, please disabuse yourself of the notion such proofs exist in true science.

It could be evidence of (not proof of) a law governing the behavior of light that you haven't taken into account, or a tachyon flow causing a split image, or indeed, yes, a conspiracy: a faked image.

Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2016, 08:27:25 PM »
What's that all about then?
Why are you asking here?  You should ask NASA folks. 

Ask the folks at NASA to show you a live view from space.  Ask GoogleEarth too and see what they say.  Tell them "I just want to see a timelapse video of the 24-hour sun in Antarctica, if you do not mind."  All you need is a camera attached to 1 of their fancy satellites or a weather balloon.  I expect it to be a marvelous sight to see.  Too bad all you got is an amateur fish-eye lens Youtube video.  What a sad state of scientific inquiry. 
watch?v=xhcVJcINzn8

Wezzoid

Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2016, 08:45:28 PM »
There are a number of possible answers. It is 'proof' of nothing, please disabuse yourself of the notion such proofs exist in true science.

It could be evidence of (not proof of) a law governing the behavior of light that you haven't taken into account, or a tachyon flow causing a split image, or indeed, yes, a conspiracy: a faked image.

Isnt that just desperate conjecture with nothing to back it up?
Whats this new law of light behaviour then?
And honestly, tachyons!? They're an unpopular theoretical particle with no evidence behind it.
And no it's not fake imagery, that's silly. Please don't bring that up without some support from a CGI expert.

Have you heard of Occam's Razor?

Wezzoid

Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2016, 08:49:23 PM »
What's that all about then?
Why are you asking here?  You should ask NASA folks. 

Ask the folks at NASA to show you a live view from space.  Ask GoogleEarth too and see what they say.  Tell them "I just want to see a timelapse video of the 24-hour sun in Antarctica, if you do not mind."  All you need is a camera attached to 1 of their fancy satellites or a weather balloon.  I expect it to be a marvelous sight to see.  Too bad all you got is an amateur fish-eye lens Youtube video.  What a sad state of scientific inquiry.

Don't be disingenuous, you're an intelligent person, you know that I'm asking you to explain how FE theory can stand up to the evidence I presented, preferably without resorting to silly conspiracies. Don't try to deflect onto a different subject, that's not an honest debate tactic.

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Offline juner

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Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2016, 08:50:10 PM »

And honestly, tachyons!? They're an unpopular theoretical particle with no evidence behind it.

So is the graviton.

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Offline ClaireSmythe

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Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2016, 09:18:51 PM »
There are a number of possible answers. It is 'proof' of nothing, please disabuse yourself of the notion such proofs exist in true science.

It could be evidence of (not proof of) a law governing the behavior of light that you haven't taken into account, or a tachyon flow causing a split image, or indeed, yes, a conspiracy: a faked image.

Isnt that just desperate conjecture with nothing to back it up?
Whats this new law of light behaviour then?
And honestly, tachyons!? They're an unpopular theoretical particle with no evidence behind it.
And no it's not fake imagery, that's silly. Please don't bring that up without some support from a CGI expert.

Have you heard of Occam's Razor?

There are multiple explanations, that's all I'm saying. Occam's Razor can't be applied to a fraction of a model; both the possibilities I referred to would have other consequences throughout the earth, it isn't an assumption meant for just one situation.
The evidence for the conjecture is the assumption that the Earth is flat. Find that as unlikely as you want, but to develop a working (and so testable) hypothesis, that's a necessary starting point.

Wezzoid

Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2016, 09:19:01 PM »

And honestly, tachyons!? They're an unpopular theoretical particle with no evidence behind it.

So is the graviton.

True. What's your point? Gravity doesn't rely on gravitons. Anyway that's besides the point. Stop doing your usual dishonest distraction tactic and kindly tackle the presented video evidence directly.

Wezzoid

Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2016, 09:28:00 PM »

There are multiple explanations, that's all I'm saying. Occam's Razor can't be applied to a fraction of a model; both the possibilities I referred to would have other consequences throughout the earth, it isn't an assumption meant for just one situation.
The evidence for the conjecture is the assumption that the Earth is flat. Find that as unlikely as you want, but to develop a working (and so testable) hypothesis, that's a necessary starting point.

You say there are multiple explanations, but assuming for a moment that the footage is real, what do you think is the simplest, with the most evidence behind it?

By the way I thought zetetic method didn't hold with hypothesising, isn't that true?

Aren't you supposed to take direct evidence only? And unless you go to the location in the videos yourself, surely video is the closest thing to first hand experience?

Or you you have trouble trusting video in general? Do you accuse your friends of fakery when they show you video of last summers bbq or any event you weren't physically present at?

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Offline juner

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Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2016, 09:30:04 PM »


And honestly, tachyons!? They're an unpopular theoretical particle with no evidence behind it.

So is the graviton.

True. What's your point? Gravity doesn't rely on gravitons. Anyway that's besides the point. Stop doing your usual dishonest distraction tactic and kindly tackle the presented video evidence directly.

You're the one who is criticizing theoretical particles, which makes it fair game to discuss others, especially those paramount to the round earth hypothesis.

Wezzoid

Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2016, 10:09:29 PM »
Junker I will ignore further posts from you until you tell me you have thoroughly reviewed the evidence and make an attempt to directly tackle it. I'm sure youre not bothered whether I reply to you or not, just letting you know I only want to respond to arguments that are directly on topic. This thread is about the videos and their implications, please don't hijack it.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2016, 02:40:44 PM »
What's that all about then?
Why are you asking here?  You should ask NASA folks. 

Ask the folks at NASA to show you a live view from space.  Ask GoogleEarth too and see what they say.  Tell them "I just want to see a timelapse video of the 24-hour sun in Antarctica, if you do not mind."  All you need is a camera attached to 1 of their fancy satellites or a weather balloon.  I expect it to be a marvelous sight to see.  Too bad all you got is an amateur fish-eye lens Youtube video.  What a sad state of scientific inquiry.

Your wish?

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/live-iss-stream or http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/HDEV/

Some of it is mundane stuff of the space cowboys doing their work (battling aliens & diverting in bound asteroids) but when they are off duty you get HD live feed of the earth, with a map below of it's position, which if it's dark you can use to go outside and see it fly by, bonus!  Of course it's all fake.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 03:23:27 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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If we are not speculating then we must assume

Wezzoid

Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2016, 03:37:54 PM »
Have you heard of Occam's Razor?
Yes.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Occam%27s_Razor

OK so you managed to blunt occams razor by treating it as a spork, well done genius.

The obvious explanation for the sun going 360 round a position in 'the ice wall' area is that it's near the pole of a globe which is slightly tilted towards the sun.

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Offline ClaireSmythe

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Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2016, 04:37:11 PM »

There are multiple explanations, that's all I'm saying. Occam's Razor can't be applied to a fraction of a model; both the possibilities I referred to would have other consequences throughout the earth, it isn't an assumption meant for just one situation.
The evidence for the conjecture is the assumption that the Earth is flat. Find that as unlikely as you want, but to develop a working (and so testable) hypothesis, that's a necessary starting point.

You say there are multiple explanations, but assuming for a moment that the footage is real, what do you think is the simplest, with the most evidence behind it?

By the way I thought zetetic method didn't hold with hypothesising, isn't that true?

Aren't you supposed to take direct evidence only? And unless you go to the location in the videos yourself, surely video is the closest thing to first hand experience?

Or you you have trouble trusting video in general? Do you accuse your friends of fakery when they show you video of last summers bbq or any event you weren't physically present at?

I'm a scientist. The zetetic method still requires a question to be asked: my current question is if the Earth is flat, what rules would have to govern it? I then perform tests to work out whether that makes sense.
The zetetic method and scientific method aren't so different. Round earthers often seem to present a completely irrelevant idea in its place (the idea of trusting only direct observation), which has nothing whatsoever to do with the zetetic method. Zeteticism is about relying on evidence over a hypothesis: it doesn't preclude hypothesizing, it simply means a hypothesis shouldn't be taken as fact, and experiments should be performed without an aim to prove or falsify: they should just be performed. Skepticism and open-mindedness ask also that we be prepared to consider alternatives.
Regardless, I am first and foremost a scientist.

On a conspiracy, the question is motive. Friends would have little reason to pretend they had a bbq, while there are motives from the theological and philosophical, to the financial and political that could theoretically motivate a conspiracy for a flat Earth. Note that I am not saying this is the case, it is only one possibility out of many (and not the one I favor).
At no point have I ever made the claim I trust only that which I see firsthand. All I have said is that if the Earth is flat, then it is possible the video footage may be faked. I don't see why this is a controversial statement.

My favored hypothesis relies on unification. Of the four fundamental forces, there is known to be a connection between electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force. Fundamentally, they are aspects of the same force: the electroweak force. Unification is a holy grail of scientific research and is commonly held to be possible, the details are just unknown. My model posits that a reason for this is that they work under the flawed notion of a round earth.
If the strong nuclear force is modelled as a heightened form of gravity acting on quantum objects (that is: small objects), then we would have matter capable of attracting and repelling photons, in much the same way magnets work. The ice wall, as a refractive object, would likely be able to exert a great force and would alter the path of light.

Wezzoid

Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2016, 08:17:28 PM »

I'm a scientist. The zetetic method still requires a question to be asked: my current question is if the Earth is flat, what rules would have to govern it? I then perform tests to work out whether that makes sense.
The zetetic method and scientific method aren't so different. Round earthers often seem to present a completely irrelevant idea in its place (the idea of trusting only direct observation), which has nothing whatsoever to do with the zetetic method. Zeteticism is about relying on evidence over a hypothesis: it doesn't preclude hypothesizing, it simply means a hypothesis shouldn't be taken as fact, and experiments should be performed without an aim to prove or falsify: they should just be performed. Skepticism and open-mindedness ask also that we be prepared to consider alternatives.
Regardless, I am first and foremost a scientist.

On a conspiracy, the question is motive. Friends would have little reason to pretend they had a bbq, while there are motives from the theological and philosophical, to the financial and political that could theoretically motivate a conspiracy for a flat Earth. Note that I am not saying this is the case, it is only one possibility out of many (and not the one I favor).
At no point have I ever made the claim I trust only that which I see firsthand. All I have said is that if the Earth is flat, then it is possible the video footage may be faked. I don't see why this is a controversial statement.

My favored hypothesis relies on unification. Of the four fundamental forces, there is known to be a connection between electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force. Fundamentally, they are aspects of the same force: the electroweak force. Unification is a holy grail of scientific research and is commonly held to be possible, the details are just unknown. My model posits that a reason for this is that they work under the flawed notion of a round earth.
If the strong nuclear force is modelled as a heightened form of gravity acting on quantum objects (that is: small objects), then we would have matter capable of attracting and repelling photons, in much the same way magnets work. The ice wall, as a refractive object, would likely be able to exert a great force and would alter the path of light.

I apologise for assuming you were a zeteticist.

There's lots to discuss here, I can't attempt it all at once.

If the footage I showed is fake, there's no need to invent exotic light behaviours for the sun. If such are considered necessary then surely that admits that at least some of those videos are real. have you decided which it is?

How does this refraction model work? Tachyons are postulated to produce a double image but that isn't evident in the polar sun videos. Also, maybe I'm just not smart enough but I can't see how the angles work, and why wouldn't there be some sort of discontinuity or jump between the different modes of light behaviour as the sun recedes and advances, especially as the seasons change. How do we go from 24hr day to 24hr night if the (new) laws of physics are self-consistent? Australia barely gets any darker in June but the wall does. Perhaps these laws vacation in the summer? Even God needs a break now and then.

I'm not a qualified scientist myself, but I'd love to have a sneak preview of your paper on this subject.

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Offline ClaireSmythe

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Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2016, 11:31:05 PM »
I apologise for assuming you were a zeteticist.

There's lots to discuss here, I can't attempt it all at once.

If the footage I showed is fake, there's no need to invent exotic light behaviours for the sun. If such are considered necessary then surely that admits that at least some of those videos are real. have you decided which it is?

How does this refraction model work? Tachyons are postulated to produce a double image but that isn't evident in the polar sun videos. Also, maybe I'm just not smart enough but I can't see how the angles work, and why wouldn't there be some sort of discontinuity or jump between the different modes of light behaviour as the sun recedes and advances, especially as the seasons change. How do we go from 24hr day to 24hr night if the (new) laws of physics are self-consistent? Australia barely gets any darker in June but the wall does. Perhaps these laws vacation in the summer? Even God needs a break now and then.

I'm not a qualified scientist myself, but I'd love to have a sneak preview of your paper on this subject.

I said I was mentioning two possibilities. I don't see why both need to be reconciled, I am not saying both are simultaneously true, just that they're both possible.

There's no point in a detailed paper when I'm dealing with multiple, separate possibilities.

I'm not relying on refraction, for the unification model. That model posits that refractive objects exert a kind of magnetism that affects quantum objects (this magnetism is in fact why they are refractive). There would be no discontinuity in the light, it simply alters the path light takes. The further in light is, less of it can reach the ice wall.
The tachyon model requires some background knowledge. As tachyons move faster than light, you cannot see one approach you. Instead, you see it the moment it reaches you: and then you see two images at once. You see the tachyon's afterimage as it leaves you, and you see the path it took to meet you (In reverse order: the closer photons clearly reach you first). This principle might allow for the Sun to be viewed from two places at once.